LINUX is obsolete

Minix is in every intel CPU user

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is a bad gurl

There are far more Qnx machines than Intel machines user

Hahaha aren't we all.

/sobs

Christ its like clockwork. Micro kernels didn't shit for windows and on some the Unix systems I've touched in the past it was a massive pain.
If you want to make a Micro kernel better then Linux then fucking do so but only declare Linux obsolete when you've managed to pull off that colossal task beyond all doubt.

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Windows isn't a true microkernel though.

Linus Benedict Torvalds

1/29/92

Well, with a subject like this, I'm afraid I'll have to reply.
Apologies to minix-users who have heard enough about linux anyway. I'd
like to be able to just "ignore the bait", but ... Time for some
serious flamefesting!
In article [email protected] (Andy Tanenbaum) writes:
You use this as an excuse for the limitations of minix? Sorry, but you
loose: I've got more excuses than you have, and linux still beats the
pants of minix in almost all areas. Not to mention the fact that most
of the good code for PC minix seems to have been written by Bruce Evans.

Re 1: you doing minix as a hobby - look at who makes money off minix,
and who gives linux out for free. Then talk about hobbies. Make minix
freely available, and one of my biggest gripes with it will disappear.
Linux has very much been a hobby (but a serious one: the best type) for
me: I get no money for it, and it's not even part of any of my studies
in the university. I've done it all on my own time, and on my own
machine.

Re 2: your job is being a professor and researcher: That's one hell of a
good excuse for some of the brain-damages of minix. I can only hope (and
assume) that Amoeba doesn't suck like minix does.

True, linux is monolithic, and I agree that microkernels are nicer. With
a less argumentative subject, I'd probably have agreed with most of what
you said. From a theoretical (and aesthetical) standpoint linux looses.
If the GNU kernel had been ready last spring, I'd not have bothered to
even start my project: the fact is that it wasn't and still isn't. Linux
wins heavily on points of being available now.

If this was the only criterion for the "goodness" of a kernel, you'd be
right. What you don't mention is that minix doesn't do the micro-kernel
thing very well, and has problems with real multitasking (in the
kernel). If I had made an OS that had problems with a multithreading
filesystem, I wouldn't be so fast to condemn others: in fact, I'd do my
damndest to make others forget about the fiasco.

[ yes, I know there are multithreading hacks for minix, but they are
hacks, and bruce evans tells me there are lots of race conditions ]

"Portability is for people who cannot write new programs"
-me, right now (with tongue in cheek)

The fact is that linux is more portable than minix. What? I hear you
say. It's true - but not in the sense that ast means: I made linux as
conformant to standards as I knew how (without having any POSIX standard
in front of me). Porting things to linux is generally /much/ easier
than porting them to minix.

I agree that portability is a good thing: but only where it actually has
some meaning. There is no idea in trying to make an operating system
overly portable: adhering to a portable API is good enough. The very
/idea/ of an operating system is to use the hardware features, and hide
them behind a layer of high-level calls. That is exactly what linux
does: it just uses a bigger subset of the 386 features than other
kernels seem to do. Of course this makes the kernel proper unportable,
but it also makes for a /much/ simpler design. An acceptable trade-off,
and one that made linux possible in the first place.

I also agree that linux takes the non-portability to an extreme: I got
my 386 last January, and linux was partly a project to teach me about
it. Many things should have been done more portably if it would have
been a real project. I'm not making overly many excuses about it
though: it was a design decision, and last april when I started the
thing, I didn't think anybody would actually want to use it. I'm happy
to report I was wrong, and as my source is freely available, anybody is
free to try to port it, even though it won't be easy.

Linus

PS. I apologise for sometimes sounding too harsh: minix is nice enough
if you have nothing else. Amoeba might be nice if you have 5-10 spare
386's lying around, but I certainly don't. I don't usually get into
flames, but I'm touchy when it comes to linux :)

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COME HOME UNIX HACKERS

I've always wanted to try OpenBSD, but its lack of a real package manager (binary or source) bothers me. At least FreeBSD got this somewhat right with pkg-ng. As long as this isn't fixed, I'm keeping my gentoo. Or do I just have the wrong expectations...?

The adversities that spurred the creation of GNU are more symbolic than their material counterpart. Even if the AT&T lawsuits and the panic they caused are irrelevant now, the "GNU's Not Unix" is a reflection of the inevitable adversities of abusive powerstructures that still persist in our society and will inevitably crop up regardless of what happens.

But it does have a binary package manager and a ports tree, just like FreeBSD.

In order to understand where UNIX weenie terms like "microkernel" and "monolithic" come from, you need to understand OSes like Multics and VMS, which have between 4 and 32 rings. The innermost ring only contained the tiniest most important code, which we would call a microkernel. Drivers and everything else ran in outer rings. The PDP-11 did not have rings, just kernel and user modes, and since RISCs were designed to run a PDP-11 OS, neither did RISCs.

How would an OS with 16 rings run on a RISC? Microkernel "kernel mode" is ring 0 and microkernel "user mode" is rings 1 to 15. Monolithic "kernel mode" is rings 0 to 14 and monolithic "user mode" is ring 15. These rings can also be divided in any other arbitrary ways.

UNIX shills used their marketing power to make it sound like an "evolution" of UNIX instead of a bad version of what people were doing since the 60s, just another bad mangling of Multics concepts. Since it's UNIX, it was too slow, so all the advantages disappeared and microkernels got a bad reputation.

Hey. This is unix-haters, not RISC-haters. Look, those guys at berkeley decided to optimise theirchip for C and Unix programs. It says so right in theirpaper. They looked at how C programs tended to behave, and(later) how Unix behaved, and made a chip that worked thatway. So what if it's hard to make downward lexical funargswhen you have register windows? It's a special-purposechip, remember? Only then companies like Sun push their snazzy RISCmachines. To make their machines more attractive theyproudly point out "and of course it uses the greatgeneral-purpose RISC. Why it's so general purpose that itruns Unix and C just great!" This, I suppose, is a variation on the usual "the wayit's done in unix is by definition the general case"disease.

Huh, you're right. Seems like I confused a few things. FreeBSD's old pkg_delete can't clean up unneeded dependencies while OpenBSD's apparently can. Also OpenBSD's packages are signed since 2014 lol, which is nice. They weren't when I checked last time.

Does it have any containerization like jails or cgroups yet? And is vmm any good?

Dude you shit up every single thread on this board.

I think at this point vmm is just for running virtual instances of OpenBSD, to aid in development. At some point it will probably be able to run other OS, but I don't know when.
There's no jails, but they've been pldge'ing tons of ports (the base system was already done a while ago). Video about pledge: youtube.com/watch?v=FzJJbNRErVQ

I'm starting to like those posts for their historical perspective to be honest.

Okay, buddy.

wow it'd be interesting to see such a bad ass girl

HI guys! ^.^
I saw you're talking about microkernel OSes and wanted to chime in.

So microkernels have been around for a while, but so far have not been all that successful. HURD moves at a snail's pace and is basically dead, Minix3, aside from the ME, isn't really usable outside of maybe embedded stuff, and QNX is proprietary. It's sad because I really like the ideas behind this design >_<
However, I feel as though like it or not, microkernels will become widely used as a desktop platform. The problem is, will we like the source of this paradigm shift?

You probably all know about this by now, but for those who don't, Google is making a microkernel OS called Fuchsia. It runs on the Zircon microkernel which is their fork of littlekernel (lk) by a guy who worked on Haiku's. There's been a lot of media speculation, although the most common assumption is that it could end up being pushed as a replacement for Android, or as a desktop/lappy OS.
The wiki article, along with the citations in it, should give you an idea. Also here's the source code link:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Fuchsia
fuchsia.googlesource.com/

There's a few things I feel about this:
First, if I know anything about Jewgle, it's that normies love them and don't think about the botnet too much. I have a feeling that Fuchsia will succeed due to Jewgle's marketing powers and influence.
Second, this kinda disproves the whole "muh performance" FUD. If it's gonna be fast enough to run on phones, the performance overhead can't be that bad. Things have certainly gotten better since the days of mach.
Lastly, it makes me wonder how many months/years until it will be finished enough for consumer devices. And how many months/years after that will it take for a de-botneted fork to happen?

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Until Micro$oft buys it, Linux is not obsolete.

...

plebs
github.com/hioa-cs/IncludeOS

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but he is right (at least this time), you know

He (you) isn't.

Jesus christ!

FTFY user. When you're writing you're own library os, then you'll have a little more credibility with me user. Till then, I'm satisfied paying attention to experts.

Muh Safety

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C++ is a bad choice due to its lack of standardized name mangling.

What a bitch. Linus should roundhouse her into the pavement.

All the while his post is 90% him whining about UNIX. What is even so special about Multics? I've never used a Multics based OS in my life, while I've used tons of UNIX based ones. Goes to show how shitty Multics was and how great UNIX is I guess.

Ehh. Proof is what matters in engineering m80. Opinions, ehh. Everyone has one as the saying goes.

Heh, Acorn (include aka C++) runs faster than Node (C) under load. By almost 100%. Not sure I see the problem.

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32 rings offer no benefit over 2 rings. Prove me wrong.

what?

what?

Look up what name mangling is and come back when you're done.

CP/M is a microkernel.
Because it actually fits on a single density floppy.

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That's a pretty stupid argument tbh. A lot of things in the modern world aren't as good as some decades ago. For example, we has lots of cheap chinese shit that breaks constantly, whereas in the past people could keep appliances and tools for many decades. By your "reasoning" the chinese shit is superior, because it has replaced the better things.

It is, because it has surpassed its competitor. There may come a time where it will gradually fall back into obscurity, but currently I don't see that happening anytime soon. The thing lispniggers don't realize is that they don't have a problem with UNIX and C, they have a problem with capitalism. Capitalism has let UNIX and C flourish because they were the most profitable. Is Lisp more ideologically pure than C? Perhaps, but Lisp isn't profitable- which is why it failed. It's why Multics, and Symbolics failed too. They failed because they weren't ahead of the curve. They weren't IBM or MIT with their years of business experience and researchers. Through profit and consumer choice, the people have decided that C is the best language, while lispkike sits there whining because he's the loud minority. The silent majority on the other hand are content with C. You know why? Because they program. Lispkike obviously has never written a proper program in his life. He argues about all the fallacies and flaws of C and UNIX, yet he never is able to produce an alternative to them, because there is none. It's this inaction and whining that places lispkike closer to ideological Communism. He will throw any claim he can out there to shit on C, how C killed his father, raped his mother, and pissed on the family rug, but never can he find any source to back it up. To be fair, to give him all this attention is a privilege. If I was two IQ points lower (or higher depending on how you look at it) I would've filtered him a long time ago.

I'm looking forward to lispkike's response. I hope he can actually fully respond to all my arguments instead of cherry picking the most easiest ones.

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Anarch-communist here, capitalism has a lot of blame for garbage winning in tech (look no further than Wintel), but UNIX/C isn't a good example. The entire ecosystem evolved in a non-economic bubble of proto-open-source hacker culture.

Oh yes, because you faggots always implicitely claim that whatever you do you do it in every case better than solutions that are constantly tested by markets for solution validity and competence.

Yet your track record is complete shit, it's suicidal and destructive. Your kind are so delusional that it makes you harmful to yourselves, others and the environment. You stupid monkeys need to be locked up in zoo.

That's not how a microkernel works.

Welcome to at least 2000, OP. When even Rob Pike recognized that Unix was not only dead but stinking[1].
The good news is that there are alternatives: Plan 9 from Bell Labs (9front[2]) and Inferno[3], the bad news is that hardware support is not good.
Of course someone here will bitch about these alternatives because the Unix heritage, but try them yourself in a VM or, in case of Inferno, compile it.
The bad news is that *nix is not going away, there are Linux, *BSD and OS X using it as their base.

For the sake of variety, here are other worth mention OSs:
Haiku[4], Redox[5], Genode[6] and even ReactOS[7] if you like Windows.
[1]herpolhode.com/rob/utah2000.pdf
[2]9front.org
[3]vitanuova.com/inferno/index.html
[4]haiku-os.org/
[5]redox-os.org/
[6]genode.org/
[7]reactos.org

I wish genode still put out .isos. It really looks like an amazing idea, especially since judging from the info on their site, it seems the kernel itself is interchangeable?
It's really the one that I hope succeeds in some way, along with redox. Fuchsia may push microkernels into the mainstream, but you just know it's gonna be insanely botnet.

kek. tannenbaum is such a faggot. was then, still is now.

I'm surprised anyone could be this much of a dumb cunt.. yet here you are. shitposting away with complete and utter fucking garbage operating systems nobody gives a fuck about.

Scratch that.
OMG THEY MADE ONE! OwO
genode.org/download/sculpt
Download ASAP!

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That wasn't praise for UNIX/C (IMHO high-end blue-sky research groups like PARC, Bell Labs, Almaden, CERN, DARPA, etc. churning out coherent systems like SmallTalk or Xanadu seem closest to my ideal). Rather, my point is that the hacker culture had a characteristic flaw, one the modern open source culture has inherited, of jury-rigging something just barely good enough for someone's specific task to get done, and then clinging to it forever with one hack after another piled on.

Nuke it.

UNIX is from AT&T culture, which was a monopoly, so weenies believe that if everyone uses something that sucks, it doesn't matter if it sucks because there's no choice. This is a fundamental part of UNIX culture that has been passed down to Linux and all other UNIX clones. In the rest of the world, there are real consequences, like all the crashes and exploits in UNIX and Windows caused by C bugs, which continue to cause billions of dollars in damages, and the F-35 fiasco and all that time and money wasted on trying to turn UNIX into a microkernel while ignoring the previous two decades of OS research.

This is bullshit. Consumers were never given a choice. I think most people are fed up with software sucking even though they don't know how much better it could be and once was. C weenies care so much about everyone else using C because C is incompatible with every other language. On a Lisp machine, you can use whatever language you want, including C.

Was the "silent majority" content with BSoDs in Windows? Was that on their checklist when they went to buy an OS? Did they choose to use Google because of all the minified JavaScript on the page? Did they choose Android because they heard it had an OOM killer?

Lisp machines already exist, so the only problem is making them again.

If you were two IQ points higher, you would be able to see why UNIX sucks.

If a vendor decides to do something about the crassinadequacies of UNIX we should give them three cheers, notstart a flame war about how the DIRECTORY command *must*forever and ever be called ls because that is what the greattin pot Gods who wrote UNIX thought was a nice, clear namefor it.The most threatening thing I see in computing today is the"we have found the answer, all heretics will perish"attitude. I have an awful lot of experience in computing, Ihave used six or seven operating systems and I have evenwritten one. UNIX in my view is an abomination, it hasserious difficulties, these could have been fixed quiteeasily, but I now realize nobody ever will.At the moment I use a VMS box, I do so because I find that Ido not spend my time having to think in the "UNIX" mentalitythat centers around kludges. I do not have to tolerate ahelp system that begins its insults of the user by beinginvoked with "man".

If the people at Berkeley and AT&T had spent all their time implementing error handlers and doing sanity checking on their code, Unix would never have gotten to where it is today!Oh, but they DID! After all, the system didn't crash inresponse to the segmentation fault. It got trapped, and anerror message got printed. While it isn't shown, chancesare pretty good that the user got his prompt back. Thisisn't MS/DOS, you know!You want them to waste time writing ADDITIONAL errorhandlers and sanity checks into every little junky programlike ld? That's against the Unix philosophy! Each toolsdoes ONE thing. ld links object files.Checking for errors and printing error messages is someonein else's bailiwick. (You know, I wonder if any of the Unixphilosophers spent a few decades working in some bigbureaucracy, where the operative pharse was "It's not myjob".) Unix - The Choice of a Screwed GenerationScrewed UP Generation.

No it wasn't.

NOTICE ME SENPAI

If the MINIX team weren't giant pussies, they'd sue intel for violating the terms of the BSD license and win.

quit browsing /r/linux

also

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*notices u*
Seriously though, Fuchsia will have huge support from jewgle, and will probably be able to run android apps by the time it's ready for consumers. If the rumors of it being a desktop thing too are true, we could see it replacing ChromeOS as well. I saw an article one time about how someone got it to boot on a lappy.

In other news, I tried Genode. It looks cool and the documentation stuff mostly makes sense. There's these configuration files that are in like XML or something like that, and you can use them to change almost any aspect of the OS while it's running if you have the know-how. I downloaded a couple packages (I think), but I couldn't figure out how to actually run them. Will look into it later.

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You never even tried to install them or use them let alone read the docs, did you?

Its obsolete in sense that it offers barely any benefits over Windows for random person,
it may be great for server administrator but everyone who isnt maintaining fucking packages will take one look at it and stay away
and anything it does similarly or better these days are completely negated by market share
portability is irrelevant to user unless its about things that regular people use like games

It's been a while since I've touched OpenBSD (5 years I think).

Linux was obsolete when it was created and the only reason why it won over Minix was because Minix initially wasn't free to use and required purchasing Tannenbaum's book until it was eventually licensed under BSD.

Tannenbaum was right about everything and the only major thing that Linus and his cohort were bitching about was solved only a few years after their famous argument.

You're painfully ignorant and retarded if you believe this. Read up on this history of Unix first if you want to shit talk it.

I can grant you that, because Lisp never crashes- because it never runs in the first place!

I know the 80's was a little before your time, but before the US had collapsed into for automated Jewish socialism, people voted with their wallets. Don't get ass blasted that other people appreciated the PC architecture way more that some 8200$ Multics machine.

I agree.
suckless.org

Complete bullshit. Lua, Guile, Python, and Clojure all interact with the C API beautifully and makes it stark that you've never programmed in C. Out of all the pure made up bullshit slander you've deliberately pulled out of your ass to try and formulate an argument, this one is the biggest. Also

Oh thank God! Now I'll just have to pay for all the support logic to handle the garbage collecting and memory allocation! What an efficient architecture. So tell me when does the built in coffee maker come out too?

How does this have to do with Windows? Windows, an OS that
1. Is not UNIX
2. Is coded in C# and C++. Two completely different languages

Don't like, don't pay it, commie.

Don't like, don't pay it, commie.

Don't like, don't pay it, commie.

Ok. You first. I'll wait until you have the fab built.

And if your mother was 20 IQ points higher she would've dropped you on the pavement faster than the consumers dropped Lisp.

Also you missed about half of my post. Of course a kike would cherrypick his arguments so gracefully. They must've really liked you at your bar mitzva.

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total faggot

Not him, but I don't understand why people hate the parentheses -- I find the non-syntax very easy to understand. (It isn't even _that_ hard to wrap your head around it, see the attached picture.)

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...

Gas.jpg

Well as a gen Z i really want to learn more about this CIANigger concept.

There's no need to declare it, I can tell.

It was just a prank, bro.

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Are you ignorant or something? AT&T was a huge monopoly for many, many decades before getting broken up into baby bells in the mid 80's.

Someone has to do it, you know.

Linux has nothing as nice as the Windows kernel's Object Manager.

No.

That's what you call a monopoly, dumbass. I realise you wrote what you wrote because it was in the 1950's the monopoly was (((broken up))) and user said 1980's. But its still a fucking monopoly today, and yesterday, and forever if you idiots don't start meshnetworking or simply refusing to pay them money.

You don't know what a monopoly is. Stop moving goal posts. You are wrong, move along.

1984 is actually when AT&T was broken up, after being sued by the US government.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakup_of_the_Bell_System

Also it's funny how over half of those baby bells were later acquired by AT&T.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakup_of_the_Bell_System#Post-breakup_structure
And now there's also this merge with Time-Warner: 8ch.net/n/res/631425.html

This is now a
Thread. What are your experiences with GNU?

Are you a masochist?

stop being a boomer-blaming crybaby
don't expect too much from the old if it's your generation but sadly most are fucking failed lolcows thanks to the mind control patents
www.google.com/patents/US6506148
patents.google.com/patent/CN106643287A/en
patents.google.com/patent/US6506148B2/en
patents.google.com/patent/US20020188164A1/en
the rabbit hole doesn't end here and theres much worse patents unlisted and even that 'proprietary baseband' everyone's talking about is unbelievably something..
remember that click feeling when fluorescent tubes start up? that's because our brains operate on electrolytes and our bodies act as electrical conductor. consider orgone treatment.
how about try moving somewhere without power grids or cell towers (rural nature) and feel the bliss for yourself
or doing dark retreat - it is recommend to turn off your house's electric system and if you have a bomb shelter try hiding there (assuming there's a decent lead shielding to prevent emf)

step 1: you are already productive but your monitor keeps you from doing anything
step 2: buy a non-shit monitor
step 3: whew you just built a lot of stuff like your fucking ancestors

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Take your meds codger, you're drooling.

Easy. Just sleep for 12 hours.

patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6506148.PN.&OS=PN/6506148&RS=PN/6506148
patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&RefSrch=yes&Query=PN/5159703

OpenBSD is still kinda bloated, and monolithic since drivers are part of the kernel. It's good as a 4.4BSD router distro, but specialized.

You've ended up shilling Multics more than Lisp at this point, go collect your own garbage.

I'd pay to watch some butthurt plebian try to attack one of my idols.

go back to /killcen/

Women never fail to make anything about themselves, and making laughably bad attempts at looking tough.

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didn't that cunt quit already? she left with a wimper and no one missed her, hahahahah.

There's no such person anymore.

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sad.
Imagine being a company with enough money to consolt another company for being more inclusive. rofl

If is any indication, she's learned at this point that the correct way to threaten people is to go after people's money, family and reputation in the form of multinational-backed browbeating/henpecking to conform with corporate approved political stances.

Only fags would use a failed OS anyway