Dvorak keyboards

B-but at least I get to become a drug addict and have pointless surgery right?

I use programmer DVORAK, it took me about a month to get used to. Switched when I got carpal tunnel and it's really helped.
Stop using opiods for your carpal tunnel you retard, you're still getting nerve damage, start working out your triceps, get yourself some wrist splints and stop using your computer so much for a while (watch some movies and TV shows instead of coding/shitposting) before you lose all use of your hands add to that the fact that you've probably already developed an addiction and are going to have to deal with withdrawal.

Thanks for the concern but I was dependant on opioids before using them for carpal tunnel for other injuries. I don't use them everyday just when I really start hurting and need them to get through the end of my day. I'm old so it's just part of life for me now. I don't like the pharmajew but until the laws change I can't grow my own opium. I never take enough of them to catch a buzz. I've done hardcore opioids before and I don't care for the nod or the addiction problems they bring.

What's the difference between programmer and regular DVORAK?

Yeah that was my main concern about using it but if it helps my pain I'm willing to deal with that. I don't really touch other people's machines much anymore. Maybe a few times a year. I stopped doing tech support for people outside of the family a long time ago.

Shill steno too me user, what do you like about it?

I'm already a touch typer but I'm self learned so it's non-standard. I type faster than anyone I've ever met honestly. I get odd looks when I type in public because I can go so fast. Do you think it'll be of any benefit for someone like me as far as speed is concerned?

When you forgot QWERTY was it easy to pick it back up when using one? Did it take a week to get gud at it again?

Attached: 354d87cc1c19b16af502a7d0d5fa2c82ddbe0b8d40904b9ad1aad4b5bcff4f0f.png (1512x1072, 1.57M)

Sorry for the double post I forgot to reply to this part. What exercises are good to do without straining my wrists? I've been doing more for myself in the last few years because I neglected my body so much in the past so I'm happy to add things to my routine if they aren't doing any damage to me. I've never used the wrist splints before. Are the ones at wal-mart good enough or am I'm going to have to go to the kike doctor and get a prescription for good ones?

I've been suffering pain/numbness from carpal tunnel for over 20 years now but it has gotten really bad in the last few years. I'm afraid most of the damage has already been done. I'm never going to get the surgery if I can help it because I've seen it mess up people.

Mine isn't caused by just typing. I use a lot of hand and power tools for my various hobbies and upkeep of my property and I'm sure that did just as much damage as the typing did. It's hard just to quit doing all those things because I'm taking care of my Grandmother, Father, brother, and two Uncles right now. I'm pretty much the only one doing any sort of house and yard work. My brother is a lazy faggot that doesn't help me. He sits on his ass and watches twitch 24/7 when he's not wageslaving.

How old are you user?

Oh and get yourself wrist supports

I'm 32. It's really closer to 18 years that I've had symptoms. I started having pain in my knees/wrists around age 12-13. I had a rough childhood of hard labor growing up on a farm although most of my problems were mostly caused by
I rode motocross and enduro from age 3 to 19. I only stopped because I suffered so many concussions and broken bones. I only wrecked a handful of times but they were all high speed crashes on narrow trails in the woods. I bent the rear axle out of my 4 wheeler when I clipped at tree going 50mph and cracked open my skull and another time I put the 4 wheeler way up in a tree when I took a corner on a steep hill in the wrong gear. My Dad still talks about the last one. The wrecks caused me problems but my knees and wrists are mainly trashed from all the abuse of just riding at speed so often. My Dad was basically Bunta IRL and trained me well.

Programmer DVORAK makes it so the most common symbols in programming are closer and the top row is symbols instead of numbers unless you use shift or caps lock and the numbers are split with odd numbers on the left hand side of the keyboard and even numbers on the right hand side.
It comes with Ubuntu under US keyboards.

Attached: KB_Programmer_Dvorak.png (900x300, 42.41K)

Pushups did a ton for me but don't do them until your pain's subsided at least a bit. There's also a bunch of stretches you can do (google 'carpal tunnel stretches').
I use these wrist splints before I go to bed (though I haven't needed them in 4 weeks):
amazon.co.uk/dp/B00L4BI41G/ref=asc_df_B00L4BI41G53962777/?tag=googshopuk-21&creative=22146&creativeASIN=B00L4BI41G&linkCode=df0&hvadid=218102487789&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=7288197315701779810&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9044967&hvtargid=pla-330850224162

I've used Capewell-Dvorak layout for awhile and it's pretty comfy once you get used to it. It's a variant that keeps the ZXVC keys in the same spot.

To deal with pain from carpal tunnel just get a pair of baoding balls of the proper size for your hand and learn how to use them. Get some that don't have those annoying chimes inside and keep them within arms reach on your desk. It's an unbelievably simple ancient Chinese medical trick that works miracles.

Attached: capewell-dvorak.png (692x214, 5.76K)

I use Programmer Dvorak with backspace and caps lock swapped; having backspace on the home row is incredibly useful. Shiftless access to all the symbols is also great. But, you'll honestly never (willingly) type QWERTY again after you switch to Dvorak, and it's very uncommon for someone who learns Dvorak to keep their adroitness for QWERTY. My WPM only increased by 10%, but I can type for much longer without strain.

Use the Workman layout.
workmanlayout.org

Attached: workman_layout.png (780x260, 17.52K)

Two backspace keys makes no sense to me. Just put escape where backspace should be, and keep backspace on the home row.

It seems I'm a total faggot that's been hanging on to QWERTY for all these years for no good reason. Honestly surprised so many of you have already made the switch. Guess I'm in good company.

What specific models of keyboards are you guys using? Shill me some companies that make /comfy/ mechanical DVORAKS. Thanks again for all the advice.

Attached: 118dabac679db462fa98f3772c378ed18c2b6e4616ee8d0f852e80e8be09e091.png (332x450, 118.29K)

I don't really like any of the popular switches -- that is to say, Cherry, Topre, and Buckling Spring switches. Topre requires an immediate use of the full bottoming out force, which isn't comfortable. Cherry switches feel like there's sand in the slider. Call me dainty fingered, but Buckling Springs send far too much shock to my fingers; and Model M keyboards have design flaws. My favorite switches to type on are Hall Effect; but I settle for Yellow/Green Alps. Linear switches are really easy on your finger joints -- and they generally have a low actuation force; so I type much faster. I dislike any kind of aural/tactile feedback -- it used to not bother me, but after using linear switches for so long, it _really_ starts to hurt my hands and slow me down. Buy a Zenith ZKB-2.

Literally just use your existing keyboard. If you're looking at your keys while typing, there's no point in using Dvorak or even typing, for that matter.

Wasd keyboards makes custom mechanical keyboards, I just bought a hardwired Dvorak one from there.

Retards always think they need to go out and buy a whole new keyboard with different key caps and everything. 90% of them won't even switch anyways.

I just never use Qwerty anymore. On the rare occasion that I use someone else's machine, I change the layout, or shell in remotely.

Nope, I need HJKL to be where they are.

Attached: 7299342568_3442776dba_c.jpg (800x253, 114.98K)

Vim is a terrible hack. It's a gigantic monster that implements its own (terrible) scripting language; and the defaults suck so people use the broken plug-in system. It has more legacy code than OpenSSL, is designed for QWERTY, and is used by ricer faggots who love to extol superficial minimalism (because if it has a TUI, it must be minimal, right?) -- Vim is thousands and thousands lines of C with API bindings for every other programming language. Vim is hard to extend and improve as itself, so users resort to limited hacks with its language bindings. Vim is the definition of crappy software. A bunch of amateurs on github are trying to clean it up, but it is a monolithic hack by design. The so-called "superiority" of model editing is also patently false, because:

a) It is designed around the worst keyboard layout
b) If you're really in love with modal editing, you can emulate it using Emacs.

The editor part of Emacs is temacs - which is just a few hundred lines of C. Everything else is elisp. What do I recommend? ed, mg, even nano. Barring those, use Emacs. When you start Emacs, the extensions (written in elisp, much better than vimscript) are loaded into temacs, and then the core is dumped as the Emacs executable. The binary size of Vim used to be much smaller, which was something Vim users loved to bring up, but now they're getting close -- proving that Vim is just hacks upon hacks.

Do you know how much trouble people are having trying to make neovim good? A lot, because the Vim codebase is dogshit*

*geoff.greer.fm/2015/01/15/why-neovim-is-better-than-vim/
*geoff.greer.fm/vim/#realwaitforchar

The people who use Vim _love_ superficially "minimal" software (i.e. software that appears minimal but has a terrible codebase). Software like i3, cmus, and urxvt. How many people use the Vim defaults? Almost none, that's how many. Emacs has a decent codebase, and it is (relatively) modular unlike Vim (It does have a lot of legacy cruft, not going to deny that; Stallman holds the project back). Emacs is a Lisp engine/interpreter with an editor-like interface. Parts of the buffer can be interpreted as Lisp, the session is a dynamic Lisp runtime, Lisp is its configuration language. Vim is all the code bloat of Emacs with the magic of ifdef hell, and people use tons of plug-ins/thousand line .vimrc config files making it even more adipose, because the defaults are egregious.

There's some stretch which supposedly helps prevent carpal tunnel syndrome. You press your hand down on a table hard for around ten seconds and repeat with the second hand, or if you're a lazy fuck like me you can do both at once by pressing your hands together like pic related. It might hurt a bit at first, but do it regularly and over time your wrists should start feeling much better.

Attached: Oekaki.png (500x250, 3.51K)

I like the modal editing and I use the vim defaults. I'd really love to use emacs (and i used to) but vim is just too much of it_just_werkz.mkv for me to switch. I tried doom-emacs but THAT is a hack if I ever saw one, the installation is 50/50 will it even work and when it does it's crippled and weird.

I love emacs' C mode though. Any tips that don't include countless of hours' worth of writing elisp?

Ergonomic keyboards (whether based on qwerty or not) are better for preventing carpal tunnel. So are correctly sized height chairs and desks.

Just make an ergodox or buy one, heck, any other split should be ok too

You shouldn't use vim for minimalism points, you are correct on that point
however, there is always a vim clone for every computer ever.
It's the hack job we need, not what we deserve. A legacy interface. Real SVR4-tier UNIX stuff.
Vim is still cancer.

I find ergonomic keyboards to be placebo. Get ready for my blogging:
I was noticing increasing pain in my hands; so I bought a Kinesis Advantage, and used it for a couple months. Still had the pain. Later, I tried Dvorak -- my pain completely disappeared; and I am not exaggerating. I tried a regular keyboard using Dvorak for a couple weeks, and I still felt no pain. What I've found to help me the most:
- Dvorak (obviously)
- Lighter switches (50g and lower)
If I had the money I'd try a Matias Ergo Pro and get back to you; but I can say for sure that the Kinesis is useless.

Go ask on >>>/emacs/

What doesn't work?

wow four fucking keys
heh

hmmm

Best thing is write a key logger and then choose a layout based on that. protip: it's colemak

...

Muscle memory is easily overwritten.
It's all about whether you really know where everything is or if you have developed reflexes to move your fingers to the right position.

If you memorized the layout, you should be able to picture the entire keyboard in your mind without looking at an image, and you should be aware of wrong keypresses solely by knowing you didn't move your finger to the right position.

Also if you memorized the layout you should be able to type with one hand without trouble.
Because if you can't then it means you're only aware of the position of keys relative to where your hand rests (muscle memory).

I realize I can move the keys around on my existing keyboard and will probably do it. I'd just like to buy something designed around DVORAK from the start. A whole new keyboard isn't expensive and I'd like to try something with different switches. I have a few Model Ms and a Razor something that was gifted to me. I like the Model Ms better but I have that Rizon one on a gaming PC because my brother gave it to me.

Keyboard shopping is what led me to thinking about this again. I've thought about it several times over the years but never made the jump because I'm self learned on QWERTY and just had so many of them laying around. Just couldn't get around to making the switch. I've been programming for years and never gave much thought to things like the programmer layout to save all those shift key presses. Just been stuck in my ways for too many years.

I'm going to probably switch over tomorrow if I can find the time to move the keys around on the keyboard I'm using right now. I feel like being able to see the keys is going to let me re-learn the muscle memory faster. Going to need something to refer to while I adjust.

You don't need to physically move anything around. You just need to configure your system to use dvorak.

That's all you'll need, really. Write out the Dvorak (or Programmer Dvorak, if you want to go that route) layout on a postcard, and put it near your monitor. You mention being self-taught; so I assume you can't touch type? In that case, you'll _really_ not want to switch the keys around, they'll make you remember your bad habits. Prepare for 10 WPM typing speeds for the next couple days -- good luck.

I'm aware but when I press one key and get another at first I'd like to be able to look down and see where it is now. I know my speed is 100% muscle memory. I can run blank keys on QWERTY but I know I'm going going to adjust to another layout without a guide at first.

Plus moving keycaps around isn't hard by any means.

I need sleep I butchered this post. I need to clean this thing anyway so might as well do a deep cleaning and change the keys around while I'm at it. Thanks anons, you won't have to suffer my blog posting for awhile. Going back to life at 10WPM.

I'd rather make my own for the sake of making my own stuff.

is there any way to do this at the BIOS level?

Wth is this post

user, opiods lower your pain threshold and make the problem worse over time. Pain exists for a reason and you need to listen to your body instead of squelching the problem with addictive drugs that you won't admit you're addicted to because they make you feel good.

Can you really lose your hand to carpel tunnel syndrome? I mean on a pratical level, don't tell mW to google it, that will just spook me with the most extreme cases.

I've been getting in my mouse hand for years but I just use my left hand for a while and it does away. The pain only seems to happen at work though? I used to use a track ball mouse and that made the pain go away completely but I haven't used it in a long time?
Am I really on the way to losing use of my while hand? Please no bully.

I was hoping you would come out of your cave when I posted that.

Attached: 52763731_11fe22fe47_z.jpg (480x640, 171.97K)

Yes, the pain in carpal tunnel syndrome comes from swelling inside your carpal tunnel as a result of misuse, this puts pressure on the nerve and damages it. This is why a common clinical test for carpal tunnel involves putting an electrode on your arm and on your finger then testing the speed at which the charge travels. Complete paralysis of the hand does happen if untreated.

user you're way past the point of non-surgical treatment, you've left it far too long.

I switched to Dvorak about 8 years ago. It's not any faster than QWERTY, but it's much easier to learn to type properly and far more comfortable.

RSI is the cause of CTS
Just get an A-shaped A4tech keyboard + some 'waifu' gel mouse pad
You should also put the keyboard at the level of 'somewhere above your lap'
pen tablet > mouse

Attached: kaneki.jpg (1880x1047 57 KB, 177.78K)

Fuck your meme layout, it's absolute shit.
Qwerty is perfect because it's designed not to group shit together so your hands don't collide and throw off your typing.
Dvorak throws all that out the window and comes up with the fucking ingenious idea of throwing all the most important shit on the home row.
It's shit, nothing but shit.
Sure, you might not move your hands as much.
But you won't be typing fast at fucking all unless your 100% pozzed up on soylent to the point where your hands look like toothpicks.

Enjoy carpal tunnel brainlet

me laughing at how retarded this board is

I understand that, but my pain goes away when I use a track ball. If I just use that am I okay. I understand that it can cause paralysis but how common is that. Is having ANY pain in your wristes mean that you will definitely lose your hand, or is it one of those things as long as you stop now you're okay?

Oh by the way when I stop using the mouse all together it goes away. And it only happens a couple of times during the work week, but goes away completely when I'm not working like on the weekend. I read on a hostipal website that if the pain goes away after a few wwks you don't need to come in so I think I'm good but going to switch to a track ball and Dvorak pronto. Do anons think I'm still at as major risk? I've been working in IT for 20 years and have never heard of anyone bwomg treated for carpal tunnel so I never took it seriously.
My girlfriend had it but it was because she played the tuba, she was the only person.

Thanks guys I switched to programming dvorak and although it's like learning to type again it feels fucking smooth

It's uncommon because people treat it.

Yes user most things don't kill you if you remedy them.

Hand paralysis isn't death retard

Are you really claiming you would not kill yourself if you could not type out these retarded posts every day?

Why would losing my hands stop me, I still have a working brain and I can always type with my feet.

I feel the same way except I don't have to look at the keys. Funnily enough when I was learning Workman, for some reason I kept making mistakes and pressing where the dvorak key would be even though I hadn't used dvorak in over a year. I'm can only get to like half my qwerty speed so I just feel like I'm a retard.

I've considered switching to Dvorak before, but never have because of a few concerns:

It's not obvious to me that optimizing the most commonly typed characters closer to the home row actually does improve typing speed/injury prevention. Typing quickly and accurately is about building up a cadence and being familiar with the stroke patterns of the words you're typing. It feels to me like stretching my finger a bit to reach a key doesn't really interfere with that, and could actually make it more comfortable in the long term. As many of you probably know, QWERTY was designed to prevent collisions of typewriter keys by spacing out commonly typed characters; I don't think that design is so inherently flawed on a keyboard.
Much of my use of the keyboard isn't in writing proper English sentences, but in writing programs and commands. I'm aware there is programmer Dvorak, but the standard QWERTY layout of peripheral symbols/numbers seems like it's optimal enough to the point where any modifications would be highly subjective and depend on the language/style, so it would be better to just make preferential modifications to your key-map(lispers switching () and [] comes to mind).
Possibly even more of my keyboard usage is in using application or global hotkeys, which are usually(hopefully) optimized to be ergonomic or topologically coherent with the QWERTY layout. Setting up a key-symbol translation layer or redefining all hotkeys to make applications work naturally seems like a nightmare.

If you use Dvorak, do you notice/care/work around these problems?

...

Dvorak user here. Have been using it full time for 3 years now. My typing speed has not improved but typing feels much nicer.

You just end up never doing that. When I started I felt like oh now I gotta rebind everything. In reality you will find using bindings in their new positions work fine.

I used to shitpost with my nose when my carpal tunnel was really bad

This. The only thing I rebinded was C-x to C-t in emacs

I got carpal tunnel of the nose but it only happened on every second Tuesday of the month. Switching to dvorak cured it.

I prefer to shitpost by taking a literal shit on my keyboard and just posting whatever the outcome is. Really takes you to the fundamentals of the art.

I'm saying I don't know anyone that's ever gotten treated, they just lay off of it for awhile.
I'm just trying to see how serious the danger is realistically, I really don't feel like getting it treated.
People can exaggerate the danger of things like this, I'm just trying to see if that's the case here. Looking at the Cleveland Medical center webpage on it says if it goes away before 3 weeks your fine, since mine goes away in a few hours I think I'm fine.

qwerty is the real deal tbh.
dvoraks L/R purpose is to make it easier to use the keyboard with one dominant hand while the

the actual dvorak just thought of putting the ETOAIN SHRDLU on the middle row.
non-sense filler like lorem ipsum
BUT it's actually the 12 most used letters in order
the dvorak's AOEUIDHTNS is similar to ETOAIN SHRDLU minus the R and L
BTW I haven't read a paper about dvorak. Just figured it out omo since I'm desinging a keyboard layout myself.

W is at the left which is kinda used (appears as first letter usually e.g, we who what where)
A appears as first letter
ZX is at the bottom left because of it being rarely used only as undo/cut
when using Q you only have to use the top row (q words follows ui or ue or is followed by o or e - e.g, baroque, quick, sequence)
MN VB sound same.
JK kinda like ZX which isn't used that much because your right hand should be tilted and higher (unlike dvorak's application with ETOAIN SHRDLU which thinks your hands can vertically alighn with the middle row - that is if you are a thin manlet)
GH for words like weigh thigh high
F is at the left because F usually appears as first word again (fall free for).

Attached: qwrtt2.png (1204x1028, 360.66K)

Attached: keyboard meme.jpg (500x567, 61.72K)

Attached: usage-viz-grid2.png (780x630, 59K)

sell it to me nigger

do you seriously believe all that or are you making it up lmao

I used dvorak for a while, but eventually switched to colemak.
I find rolling preferable to alternation.
Might give Mod-DH a try sometime, but honestly we're at the point of diminishing returns for keyboard layouts.

1.) get keyboard with decent key rollover (aka many keys registered when held down at once)
2.) install plover
3.) ????
4.) Profit after learning stenotype for quiet a while

youtube.com/watch?v=MuVUGKBOp9Q

haha yes

Come on no bully, it's not like getting seen is cheap or something. Also it's more like I don't want to go in for something that just a little painful.
It's only in my forearm anyway. And it goes away right away, I read up more on it and besides surgery, which I'm pretty sure I won't need because my pain goes away if I'm not working, all they do is give you a splint, which I can get myself.
One time I fractured my pinky and all they gave me was a metal splint I could have put on myself, got charged like $3500 after everything was said and done.

I've been trying to learn this for a few days and it's going pretty well. Any Dvorak users have tips on learning?

I don't have time for your commie layouts

Attached: detain.gif (355x200, 6.13K)

>>learn.dvorak.nl/

I've been using Dvorak for the past 7 years or so (technically it's not regular Dvorak, but a custom programmer Dvorak. It's somewhat similar to vanilla programmer Dvorak, but the numbers are rearranged and grouping symbols are set symmetric). Dvorak is a bit better, but not as good as many people make it out to be. Using a dedicated programming layout for programming is a massive improvement, though. Having all my symbols symmetric and putting numbers into a shifted position is a massive increase in comfort while programming.

Dvorak also probably won't help carpel tunnel syndrome much. It's more about finger comfort. If you're hurting your wrists typing, it's either that your wrists are just going or you are typing with bad posture, and Dvorak won't help that.

I tried Dvorak for 3-4 months about 6 years ago and I gave up. I switched to Colemak a year ago and reached my normal 90wpm about 2 months in.

Colemak keeps QWERTY symbol placements and most global hotkeys don't change. I don't have to do acrobatics with my hands and fingers to type anymore, so it's pretty nice.

well at least dvorak is present in most modern operating systems

0/10
not comfy enough

Attached: 7332059_sd.jpg (550x331, 35.61K)

The initial switch was a real problem for about 3/4 weeks. Productivity at my job plummited, but only for the first week. After that I got used to the keys. I was a touch typer qwerty until I switched to dvorak. Now it takes a little longer for some letters to hit, but mostly its muscle memory, so if I switch after a long time no usage, I'm hitting the qwerty keys like the old days in no time.

I quit on dvorak after a year or so, because my new laptop had backlit keyboard and I didn't want to waste that feature. But after a couple of months I switched back (now to dvorak programmer), because qwerty felt funky. You'll notice the qwerty hand movement after using dovrak for a while. And backlit keyboard is handy still, becuase now I see the qwerty keys and know which key is the dvorak one y = f j = h etc.

a tip: decide first which keyboard you want. I started out with regular dvorak us, but the switch after that was to dvorak programmer, and I still fiddle sometimes with the ; and ' (which are swapped with dvorak and dvp)

For dvorak-programmer, getting used to the new symbols takes equal amount of time, and hitting the right number sucks with shift+num and the order in which theyre put, so I use a keypad for typing numbers mostly. But holy shit, those keys are nice. No shifting for a curly or round bracket is a fucking relief, also the dash (-) on ' is way better.

I dont think its worth it though if you want to get rid of hand problems. My left hand starts to hurt after 4 to 5 hours, and that lasts until the day after. The prbolem for me turned out to be the keyboard, I bought the microsoft ergo wireless sculpt with the fat mouse and its less painful to type for long periods of time. The reason dvorak is not worth it per se with hand problems, is the learning curve and the lack of actual everyday typing profit imo. I'd recommend programmer dvorak, but remapping keys is not hard, so sticking with qwerty, but mapping funky key combinations is a solution. Vim is practically unusable btw (but im an emacs user so idc). That said i'll never leave dvorak, qwerty just feels crappy after using dvorak.

I didnt like this keyboard, the spacebar is terrible

I program for a living, and dvorak programmer helped a lot in improving my hand health. Brackets are way easier to type and the dash has a great spot. The dot and comma are easier to type imo (fingers up instead of down). The 9 turns to + and the 6 to =, which is nice for + typing, but the = took some getting used to.

A real pain in the ass is "ls" command which is "p;" in dvorak and the f is a bit hard to hit (y).

If you switch, which I do recommend, never look back. At one time you'll have to handle qwerty again and you'll get that dvorak is superior

ouch

Good thing it's not the only ergo keyboard out there. I'm sure there's one out there that's for you. Pic related is pretty nice if you could get past the wireless bullshit.

Attached: wireless-keyboard-k350.png (800x687, 186.05K)

Why not both?
github.com/mattdibi/redox-keyboard

In terms of priority

The keyboard in your pic only addresses the second priority.

You can set Vim to use Dvorak in Insert mode and QWERTY in command mode, retard.

A wild emacsnigger appears. How predictable.