Wayland

So? All SJW's are white.

nu-X is fucking aids

There's no reason why you cannot run an X server on top of Wayland.

wayland.freedesktop.org/xserver.html

Because just about everything in Debian repos is built to expect systemD. It got to the point where it was easier to fork the entire distro than it was to maintain a systemd-free repo. This is why systemD is such a cancer.

proof?

What kind of ridiculous bullshit is replacing X with wayland only to have to run X on wayland?

Use it for a small setup with sway, can't really complain but on the other hand don't see why you should switch from X

You niggers keep saying that yet when I try it everything still works fine on Debian with sysvinit. And I can switch between the two at will with a GNOME 3 desktop without some sort of massive cascade that uninstalls half the system as Devuan shills claim. Here, look:
user@anon:~$ sudo apt-get install sysvinit-coreReading package lists... DoneBuilding dependency treeReading state information... DoneThe following additional packages will be installed: cgmanager initscripts insserv libcgmanager0 libnih-dbus1 libnih1 startpar systemd-shim sysv-rcSuggested packages: bootchart2 pm-utils bum bootlogdThe following packages will be REMOVED: systemd-sysvThe following NEW packages will be installed: cgmanager initscripts insserv libcgmanager0 libnih-dbus1 libnih1 startpar systemd-shim sysv-rc sysvinit-core0 upgraded, 10 newly installed, 1 to remove and 0 not upgraded.Need to get 738 kB of archives.After this operation, 1,634 kB of additional disk space will be used.Do you want to continue? [Y/n]
All I have to do is add /etc/inittab and I'm good to go. So what, SPECIFICALLY, is Devuan providing that I don't already get with stock Debian?

You don't understand what is the purpose of Wayland. Protip: Wayland is developed by the same people who maintain X.org who understand exactly how X11 is used today in actual practice.

That's not exactly inspiring confidence.

Sounds like you're butthurt people left. No one cares how much or little work it takes to un-poz the distro, when it's pozzed as default that is plenty enough reason to leave.
I run Gentoo btw

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Is there a better authority on the X11 protocol than the X.org developers who spend their expertise trolling through the reference implementation of X11?

I've never understood why FOSS has so much trouble with graphics and sound.
And file systems.
And init systems.
And efficient desktop IPC

They're shills because they make statements like "just about everything in Debian repos is built to expect systemD" which is obviously not true.
A justification for an entire distro being that they didn't like one default is pure autism. Debian doesn't have to be installed with systemd. I run a multistrap build for work that installs stretch with sysvinit. WSL also doesn't use systemd on stretch.

"They" didn't make that statement, I made that statement because that statement is true.
Maybe, why do you care? Because those with autism do the majority of the work perhaps? You seem to have an autistic need to defend your beloved distro
This is true if you want to spend all that time with configuration and marking systemd in apt so it doesn't pull it when you upgrade or pull something that depends on it by default (which is nearly everything). Why do through the trouble of doing it yourself when an entire community maintains a distro that does it for you? If you don't want systemd there is no reason to use a distro that uses it by default.
Good for you, you could avoid all that work by just using a distro that does the same exact thing by default. You're the one with autism.
I can change the default. I'm just not a retard that uses a pozzed distro then yells at other people that forked it and made their own thing.

Again you sound like a butthurt faggot.

Uhh, that's the reason why 90% of all other distros exist, especially debian/ubuntu based.

I don't get why people are so butthurt about devuan, it's just like every other debian based distros with different defaults. Why don't you get mad about ubuntu instead?

t. someone who hasn't tried to run Debian without systemd

Every time.

Because every program regardless of the user they are run as can read every key press every mouse click and every pixel of your screen. xorg is total shit.

Devuan only modifies a few packages, user. Debian contains over 10,000. Your statement cannot be true. And some of those changes are pure butthurt, like adding xlennart, or purges of optional systemd support that weren't necessary. There are also suspicious additions like the "bitcoin" package that have nothing to do with systemd and aren't present in Debian.
There is literally no marking and configuration is just specifying "packages=sysvinit-core" to multistrap instead of "packages=systemd-sysv" during install. I make builds of stretch for both, sysvinit for an embedded device and systemd for our servers.
upgrade will never pull a package that requires a removal unless you've fucked up your apt preferences severely. As you're a gentoo user, you probably have. Don't change defaults you don't understand. You guys have well-deserved reputations as clowns.
Because they're literally retarded and can't even get GNOME working? And the "trouble" in this case was typing "sudo apt-get install sysvinit-core". Oh no, too hard, better make an entirely new distro.
I'd rather use a distro that gives me a choice and has timely security updates.

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fuck wayland and fuck systemd

...

Also you're a retard. Installing another init doesn't remove the pozz. If you remove systemd meaning you purge it from the entire system it breaks everything including your precious GNOME. That's kind why someone forked it and made an entirely new distro.

Of course you know that you're just running damage control for systemd and your beloved Debian. Also
top kek.

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That's just autism, user. You'd throw a tantrum at my code too as I build optional systemd support for systems that run it and build-depend on libsystemd-dev for sd-daemon.h. Devuan would fork my package for that even though I don't require systemd. Programmers treat their distro as a joke because it is.
And yet I literally have no trace of systemd on my embedded builds and they somehow still work. It's almost like this is the outcome that Debian voted on. Huh.
What would a gentoo user even know about security updates. You don't even have any, you have new versions with new bugs. Rolling distro rolling into a ditch and catching fire.

casual

Still haven't answered the question of
They forked Debian, deal with it. You're so booty blasted you've shit up an unrelated thread to shill for your beloved distro and systemd.
Why do you care?
Why would they care?
Why do I care what a bunch of SJWs voted for? I don't use their distro.
Probably more than the average normalfag and systemd shill considering they cared enough to learn a distro focused around building the entire system from source
Why do you care? Oh wait, I forgot you do care because users running the bleeding edge fix the bugs so you can benefit from them when it trickles down to your pozzed distro in a decade.
It's your opinion, I don't care about it. Why do you seem to care so much about mine?

without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Debian_Stretch

Notice how it lists all those optional steps for people that need a DE? See how much work someone has to do to purge it and keep it purged from the system? You can't deny it's cancer when you're running an application to emulate its behavior to keep other applications running. It's almost like everything in the distro has an hard dependency on systemd now because it's proven cancer that weasels its way into everything.

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Oh so you're so BTFO you refuse to answer the question eh? Ran out of talking points and FUD?
Is this supposed to impress me? What do you do? Koding with Klossy? My money says you're a webdev LARPing as an embedded programmer.
Stay butthurrt faggot. Nice job searching for an image from Evo in an attempt to fit in. No one is believing your bullshit. We all know you're some faggot that started using Linux via Ubuntu and now you think you're some amazing programmer because you managed to install Debian.

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You've been corrected, user. Return to your gentoos.

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Nope.

look systemd is a bloated piece of shit but wayland actually solves a shit ton of problems X has.

X11 IS NOT NETWORK TRANPARENT IN IT'S CURRENT USAGE
youtu.be/GWQh_DmDLKQ?t=1113

checkem

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In every distros default setup any program you run can read, delete, or alter any file within your home directory.
Wayland is fundamentally flawed, due to horrible design decisions, which are completely unnecessary. it's impossible for something running over Wayland to perform as well as something running over X can. Fixing this would require breaking everything.

What flaw?

Absolutely not true. Basic linux permissions and group / user support prevent this. Linux programs can only edit your home directory if they specifically have access.

Xorg is not like that at all. Any program under any user can do anything.

Absolutely incorrect. Wayland has far far less overhead than x.

I miss AmigaOS.

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wowwwwwwwwwwwww what a terrible piece of software

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Zig Forums is full of retards I swear

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I'm not switching until someone ports xmemead

Except wayland I guess, which can't do streaming in an era defined by streaming. Loonix, always a decade late.

It's a necessary replacement. I am waiting for sway 1.0.

web devs in charge of handling input

yeah I agree user why even have file permissions. Everything should be totally unified. Security is totally retarded.

File permissions saves /etc/ but not any of the actually valuable user files.
Yeah you are running X on a totally secure server. Totally.

bullshit file permissions solve tons of things. You run your webserver as its own user. When it fucks up its isolated.
who are you even talking to i'm the one that hates X

...

lubuntu.me/lubuntu-development-newsletter-9/

I'm talking to 1/100000 user who runs X with security in mind.
Wayland has no features. Look at OP he says it would be about 10k loc to reach the same as 50 loc for tinywm under X.
This is why nobody uses wayland.
Even worse is warnings like termbox where it looks OK then suddenly the dev is like fuck memory use Go instead. Nobody will port shit. We will end up with SDL terminals.

Let's say I have two PCs set up with Wayland. I want to SSH from one into the other and remotely run a GUI program. How do I do it?

It's not accurate to measure features based in LOC. In fact more LOCs implies in most cases a bad design and less modularity.

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Using the Weston RDP compositor.

This is how every OS and distro have worked for the last 30 years. Whatever "solution" wayland has is probably yet another meme. For starters either all code would have to run as separate users or just all code is some interpreted language with no privileges. Linux isn't even designed for multi user security (aside that it LARPs about it by having file privileges and such). Ironically, all the programs will indeed still have access to /dev/ as well as
etc
If you open a python or haskell shell in a folder that's not owned by you, it will execute code left in that folder (for example .ghci). If you chown a file in a folder that's not owned by you, it could be replaced with a link to /etc/passwd right before chown runs. Your OS is shit nigger and there's no saving it. I highly doubt Wayland fixes these problems and the other 9001 of them. Do you even know how file permissions in Linux work? Almost nobody does, despite claims that they are simple.

You literally can't do anything in Linux without compromising multi user security. X11 of course just makes the problem far worse.

Install the Weston Xserver.

Security aside, the primary advantage of Wayland is its superior support for hardware acceleration. No more tearing, smooth scaling and dragging, far faster drawing and composition, less pointless memory copies, etc.

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How do more lines of code translate to LESS modularity?

inb4 it uses triple buffering or double buffering (starts rendering after vblank). enjoy your >=16.66ms input lag and rsi

Sucks, but it sweeps every other lag issue completely under the rug forever, and if combined with a better refresh rate (>120Hz) it wouldn't even increase latency.

Wow, they're actually porting OpenBox to Wayland.
Everybody used to say that simple X11 window managers couldn't be ported to Wayland because it has to be a compositor as well, and therefore will mean blowing them up in size by at least an order of magnitude.

Basic features to prevent shit like this have been around since 2002 you retard. X11 has to go.

That's what zero market pressure gives you.

No xorg on system+openbox+lxqt+sway in windowed mode = super comfy. Just needs a non-pozzed wayland only browser for maximum userland security. Port more emulators to use pure qt and you can get emulators with no xorg dependencies in the future. VLC already works without Xorg. There's pure wayland/no xorg music players. Libreoffice works in qt/wayland only mode but doesn't have options to remove xorg yet?. There's a single qt/pure wayland archive manager. Gimp and blender are fine in pure wayland using gtk3 howbeit shit interface. Wine works in pure wayland, but no 3d acceleration/vidya without X. And that's all I can think you could want that's not just command line only stuff or propietary software.

Wayland isn't a solution to x11's problems, it is a restart from scratch using linux kernel specific interfaces to make common agreed upon solutions to certain usages of the framebuffer and input devices in userspace. It is designed around single user security and not needing root for anything if you use permissions correctly. The new code base lets it be smaller and more easily auditable compared to x11's cruft you have to go through just to get stuff to work, letalone be secure.

This better be a joke.

Security is no joke. And what's wrong with getting one's bing bing bing wahoos? Everybody needs a break once and while.

That's one way to go, but I would recommend Weston-RDP, it's a much more efficient protocol.

As if a bunch of Zig Forums lusers who do nothing but cry all day about 'poetteringware' will ever do anything as substantial as creating and using their own user space.

Cattle isn't meant to be taken seriously when they cry about the state of affairs. They're meant to be led and use whatever scraps we give them without complaining.

Wayland is shit. Can't even change the brightness on my fucking laptop after 3 hours of scouring documentation and the internet.

I used to repeat this. Any time someone complained about systemd I parroted "Debian works without systemd!"

No it doesn't. It technically does, but half the system depends on it.

I just installed sysvinit-core, rebooted, and purged systemd. At what point does "half the system" stop working? Does it take time? Should I check back tomorrow?

Way to be a n00b
apt will pull system-d without making configurations and shit will break down the road. Devuan modifies any packages that conflict with systemd. You'll end up wasting hours of your time configuring things and always need to change shit. Devuan has a reason to exist so you can suck on mah ballsak

Moving goalposts. What happened to your claim that "half the system" depends on it? As soon as I try it and show that's bullshit you just move on to the next piece of bullshit without saying a word.
But let's talk about this new bullshit. How is apt going to magically pull in systemd when "update" will hold back packages with dependencies that require removals? How are conflicting dependencies even going to get added to a stable release?
Why can't Devuan supporters ever give specific examples as to why their distro exists? It's always this tin foil hat shit about what might happen in the future.

Devuan's shit anyways. Artix is the way to go in my opinion, and don't give me none of that "it's the same shit" argument, they clearly have different target userbases that happen to overlap in the "No systemd" department

I've tried double buffered vsync (render after vblank) on 120Hz which gives 8.33ms input latency, and it's still a deal breaker.
o-okay

Assuming you use intel here. Just open /sys/class/backlight/intel_backlight/brightness with your text editor of choice. I don't use wayland since it's shit, but I highly doubt that won't work.

Try writting "rm -rf ~/*" in a text file, chmod +x, and running it from a terminal. I absolutely assure you it will happily proceed to work on pretty much any distros defaults.
Wayland is a lot smaller in regards to code size, but that doesn't it has less overhead. Graphics have to jump through a very long series of hoops in order to get rendered on screen, and it has very significant effects on performance. If you're already using compositing on X the difference is not as significant, though it's still there.

Devuan exists because Debian didn't want xlennart in the repo!

I've considered making the shift from Debian to Devuan, because Devuan seems to have "choice" as a goal and a more sensible mailing list than debian-devel where they bicker over the weboob package for being offensive to women and someone forgetting to write Chair instead of Chairman in an announcement. I feel more confident that Devuan would not make opionanted choices on behalf of the users. However I've chosen to find a free weekend to go the LFS way and create my own system.. I want more control.

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Good joke.

Thank god devuan and mx-linux exist.

Not true. That's how X has worked, but Windows, MacOS, Android and every other operating system (except those that use X) don't have this problem.
X is an ancient, outdated and utter shite protocol created back when personal computers weren't even a thing. It is not suited for modern computing since it's insecure and unmaintanable.
Among other things, X:
These 3 should scare the shit out of you "le NSA botnet" idiots, but then again this is Contrarian Town and you don't have any personal beliefs, you only "believe" what's not popular.
And there are many, many more reasons why X is shit.
Now, Wayland is also shit. Basically the X devs went all Suckless and decided to make it as small and secure as possible, but now it lacks even basic features like screen grabbing and desktop sharing. Mir would have been a far better alternative (and Upstart to systemd, for that matter) but Canonical is retarded and the community is fixated on sucking Red Hat's cock.

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Use acpilight you faggot. It might use the name "xbacklight" in command but it is completely independent of xorg and wayland. You can change brightness from the tty with it.

Mir is going to be a Wayland compositor now, and may just make Wayland great by being a target for small X11 window managers

Shit, meant to point out this post

Oh and you think you're so smart asshat? I've tried every utility under the sun asshat, fiddled around in any directory related to brightness. Only thing I didn't do yet is look at xrandr's code you goddamned incompetent fuck.

Can't find the /intel_backlight directory specifically but I tried modifying any brightness related values in /sys/class/backlight/acpi_backlight0 (or named something similarly) and nothing works. My last resort is checking out xrandr's code in my spare time, thanks for the help though. Appreciate it.

Yes faggot if you run the program as a user with permissions to delete your files of course it can. Linux allows you to securely configure users that cant. This one must have gone over your head as a windows user.

Golang? Never had memory issues using Go. What are you complaining about?

Yes, you're fully right, there's a very good reason I said by pretty much any distros defaults.

It might not be symlinked by default, tried searching from / for any folder named intel_backlight? From what I'm aware it's a very standard feature and anything intel should provide it, granted it's always worked for me, so I've never had much reason to look closely into it.

It's a fucking retarded statement then.
no shit

Isn't a Hello World in go a megabyte of code and a big pile of ram?

Languages with a runtime system will always use more RAM compared to those without. That being said, no.

user@anon:~$ cat foo.gopackage mainimport "fmt"func main() { fmt.Println("Hello, Google turned Rob Pike into a tranny")}user@anon:~$ go build foo.goanon@user:~$ ls -alt foo-rwxr-xr-x 1 user anon 1633717 Aug 19 18:05 fooanon@user:~$ strip fooanon@user:~$ ls -alt foo-rwxr-xr-x 1 user anon 1020296 Aug 19 18:08 fooanon@user:~$ /usr/bin/time --verbose ./fooHello, Google turned Rob Pike into a tranny... Maximum resident set size (kbytes): 932 Minor (reclaiming a frame) page faults: 254
wew?

932 kB for a hello world? That seems excessive.

It is. The same thing in assembly,
user@anon:~$ ls -alt foo-rwxr-xr-x 1 user anon 496 Aug 19 18:48 fooanon@user:~$ /usr/bin/time --verbose ./fooHello, Google turned Rob Pike into a tranny... Maximum resident set size (kbytes): 156 Minor (reclaiming a frame) page faults: 22
I could tune away some of that RSS and strip off more ELF shit but it's good to show how much of the bloat is from the OS and not the language.