Why are these things considered harmful?

...

DBus is a genuinely good thing. PulseAudio is one of those things that would be pretty nice (its audio rerouting capabilities are insanely powerful; try to do that in Windows without shady third party kernel-installing software) if polished and with saner defaults. Wayland is good, but I think the designers are getting a bit ahead of themselves with redesigning stuff that worked for the sake of redesigning it, and backwards compatibility will be ass; I don't even want to think how terrible will games be without mouse capture, which was removed because "it's a shitty hack".

GTK is shit because it's trying to be not C despite being written in C. GNOME is shit because it is a bloated tablet-tier animationsfest which makes hides its configuration options via plugins (no, I don't want to install a plugin to hide that huge ass Accessibility button; I am not disabled and most people are not disabled, so give me a fucking option to hide it). NetworkManager is redundant.

PulseAudio is shite compared to JACK for rerouting.
Wayland is fine, libinput handles mice and can provide an xinput fake if need be.
Much better to redesign and break shit when it hasn't been adopted instead of keeping it around for another 30 years.

Anything that conflicts with my philosophy.

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double/triple buffered vsync is a shitty hack and adds 1 frame of input lag. you can reduce the frame time from 16.66ms (60Hz) to 8.33ms (120Hz) or even further, but then you're using more CPU to do nothing, and exponentially reducing the chance of being judder-free, not to mention contradicting yourself. what other benefits does it offer? security? linux has no security

Red Hat
Red Hat
buggy and bloated
They don't use their own WM, developers mostly focused on removing features and handing out diversity participation trophies.
bloated
Nothing wrong with it, an elegant piece of software that will hopefully persist despite Canonical's NIH syndrome.

I still don't get what D-Bus is even meant for

Point is, mouse capture is not a hack. These people are not thinking of the windowed shooter usecase, in which you definitely do not want your mouse to leave the window. The way it's usually achieved is a hack, the usecase is not, and they forgot about it.

This, the way they are doing network transparency (the guy doing it seemed to have no fucking idea about nothing, judging by some comments in his blog), and the triple buffered screen make me think two things:
1) They are amateurs getting too ahead of themselves.
2) They do not believe gaming on GNU/Linux is a usecase. Which it is, despite all the memestry about it around here.

The idea of replacing X with something simpler, more modular, and granular is sound. Some of the specifics are just downright dumb.

wacom and synaptics still broken or shit in wayland trash

rtfm
polite sage

Because wpa_supplicant exists.

Is there a gui frontend for it?

i've implemented the d-bus protocol and i still have no idea what it's for

and yet it is still a slow buggy bloated piece of modern UX bullshit

Yes, it's called network-manager-applet.

So that's a sarcastic no?

wifi-menu for wpa and nmtui for NM are convenient cli interfaces

B L O A T

Have systemd as a hard dependency (that measn you cannot have it without each other)

same as above and also being stupidly buggy years ago

same as NetworkManager, and subjectively some people doesnt like the aesthetics and workflow of it (UX autism)

Looking all outdated and from WinXP era, although very stable and lightweight (and easier to theme than the alternatives).

and mostly ebcause it's a solution for a non-existant problem

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You can use KDE without systemd on Gentoo, and that depends on NetworkManager. But it's still shit.

I'm using KDE Plasma with Devuan and it's smooth as silk, everything works great.

But I have autism, and that means I have to micromanage every part of my system, while neglecting my hygiene. Also, Devuan has pulseaudio.

You can even do this on Ubuntu.

volti

You didn't even mention flatpak or pipewire.

Wayland is the only thing I've been excited for in a while.

It's quite easy to build too.
github.com/i-rinat/apulse

what did he mean by this?

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whowhat or whatthefuck?

Gentoo is used as a base for Chrome OS

Gentoo is literally curated by slack-jawed transfaggot interns working for free for Jewgle you idiot.

So? That doesn't make Gentoo maintained by Google interns. That means that it's used as a base for a Google project. The Linux kernel isn't owned by Google either, and it's used as a base for Android and Chrome OS, it isn't owned by Microsoft for being a base for Azure, and it isn't owned by Tivo for being used in their devices.

gentoo.org/inside-gentoo/developers/
A quick random lookup of about 10 of them found none that work at Google, and none that are transfaggots, and none that are interns. About half of them were actual PhDs. How about you stop talking out of your ass, you stupid lying faggot?

You didn't look hard enough if you couldn't find any Jewgle employees or transfaggots in that list. You argue like a Jew, as well.

Show me.

it literally caused hearing loss in people due to a functionality that allowed other programs to influence global volumes, lel.
So you'd be listening to your music on half global volume with your nice hi fi headphones that need an amplifier so they're nice and drivey, and then some other shithead program set it to 100.
Bammo.

Both Red Hat products. One is an over complicated method of distributing executable packages, and the other is a media system as complex as systemd.

And the defaults for years caused extreme CPU usage in order to "accurately sample audio".
It was regularly forced by distros that targeted original atom CPUs, leading to garbage media playback.

Yes. It's called wpa_gui.

This, after I learned how to actually use wpa_supplicant I ditched NetworkManager for good and never looked back. wpa_supplicant can do everything NetworkManager can and more, while at the same time being not the least harder to use.

I don't like D-Bus because it's constantly spawning a bunch of processes and daemons for functionality that I can't use or don't want. I couldn't avoid it as a depdendency so I just did chmod -x on the whole suite. Nothing I use broke from it.

All of those are bloat from freedesktop.
essentually cancer that pulls in bloated uneccesary dependencies.
It acts as actual cancer by invading the natural way of doing things growing more and more until everything depends on it and the system dies.

I see a lot of people complaining about systemd but holy shit is Dbus a shit ton worse.
With systemd you can atleast avoid it by isntalling a distro that doesn't use it.
But with dbus almost fucking everything want it for no good reason.

for instance, fucking glib depends on dbus.
WHICH IS USED BY A FUCK TON OF PROGRAMS.

> equery u dev-libs/glib | grep dbus-dbus
Feels nice being a Gentoo user.

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desu

Hey there. I'm sitting here with a relatively fresh gentoo and I want to avoid most of these, except GTK and wayland maybe. I don't really have a problem with the Network Manager either but I don't need it.
I need software mixing capabilities like pulseaudio though because otherwise, with my audio ffado interface only one application can play at once. Which route to go and what depends on what? No systemd installation.

Ohhh, that explains Will Hubbs I guess...

dbus is harmful because of its implementation. It can, for instance, pile up messages consuming more memory than needed, drop messages without warning, the list goes on. This article explains better:
dvdhrm.github.io/rethinking-the-dbus-message-bus/
The funny thing is that the idea of a dbus-like system was already implemented in a better and simpler way as the plumber on Plan9. As noted by a Debian developer:
lwn.net/Articles/453529/

Networkmanager (nmcli(1), nmtui(1) among others) is a wrapper around stuff like wpa_supplicant(8) so, in short, it is unnecessary and learning it won't bring you benefits like learning ifconfig(8) and route(8) (now just ip(8) on some systems).
I dunno about the others.

If you need flexible audio, use jackaudio, where you can route everything into everything.
Add USE="jack" into make.conf
emerge --changed-use @world and then emerge qjackctl
If you need applications that can't into jack, you'll need to route audio from alsa through loopback device, which means non-trivial /etc/asound.conf config and other stuff. I can provide the configs if needed.

Please do

weird. I tried emerging glib without dbus and portage shouted at me that it must use dbus.

Is this (the image) a Permutation City reference?

Meanwhile I can chat with my friends, play Don't Starve Together and listen to my music and seamlessly control where sound comes out from and control the volume of each stream individually. I could also pipe my music through the mic if I wanted to. All in real time, without modifying any .config files or restarting the server.
Audio in GNU is garbage, and PulseAudio is a mediocre hack, but it beats using ALSA or Jack for everything that doesn't care about latency.

I ALSA don't give JACK shit about your PULSE audio when shell scripts could do all of that.

Oh cool, didn't know this thread was still alive. Gotta try using jack, definitely. But wasn't there a 5th, relatively new alternative to oss/alsa/pulse/jack too?

But why would joy do that when Pulse exists? That's just overcomplicating the process for no reason.

I can only speak for myself here but Pulse just doesn't seem to be accurate. There are little crackles in the audio that make it hard to bear on good headphones. I checked the levels qnd everything because it sounds like clipping, but it isn't. It's either little dropouts or some kind of coil whine (which would be strange as it isn't there under win). Jack doesn't do that but has longer dropout occasionally (xruns).
My setup is somewhat pecculiar though as I'm using a ffado card, so maybe there just is no perfection in that. Straight alsa, well it's been a while but I think it had the best audio quality. It sucks though when only one application can play audio at the same time.

Also pulse just steals away your control and just always does something you didn't ask for. It's as annoying as the automounting of devices on some distros.

I'm hats this about alsa only allowing one application at a time? I've been using it for years with multiple programs playing sound at once just fine. Did I break the matrix?

You may need to adjust periods, you'll also have to match frequency to the one you set in qjackctl.
/etc/asound.conf: 0x0.st/sYj6.txt
Add modules="snd-aloop" into /etc/conf.d/modules
Then you'll always need to run the following upon qjackctl startup (you can specify that in configuration)# create jack device connected to the loopback/usr/bin/alsa_out -j ploop -dploop -q 1 2>&1 1> /dev/null &/usr/bin/alsa_in -j cloop -dcloop -q 1 2>&1 1> /dev/null &## give it some time before connecting to system ports#sleep 1# cloop ports -> jack output ports jack_connect cloop:capture_1 system:playback_1jack_connect cloop:capture_2 system:playback_2# system microphone to "ploop" ports jack_connect system:capture_1 ploop:playback_1jack_connect system:capture_2 ploop:playback_2
And I almost forgot, but you'll also need to set some permissions. I think you'll need to add yourself into the audio group and add (tabs, not spaces) @audio - rtprio 99@audio - memlock unlimitedinto /etc/security/limits.d/99-realtime.conf
You may have to create that group yourself and then tell jack to use it. Or not, I'm not sure. There are some guides on the official jack website.

I think redhat was working on something that should be able to route video and audio from containers and if I recall correctly, it should also have capabilities similar to jack.

It also makes recording and stuff easier.

Forgot to uncomment the sleep 1 bit, you should do that.

ALSA can do everything Pulse can. Pulse just makes it easier to do.
With Pulse you can play sound through network into other computers, manage several outputs/inputs at the same time, select which application can use a specific input/output as well as it's volume, pipe the output of an application to an input, manage Bluetooth devices and multiple sound cards, etcetera. All in real time. At the end of the day it all plays through ALSA though.

Whats the alsa equivalent of virtual sinks and sources? I would love to ditch pulseaudio, but I don't know how to pipe the output of one program to the input of another. I tried jack a few years ago and was too much of a brainlet to get it to work.

Literally nothing that can't be done in a .asoundrc

if you got gtk3 with +X flag, it'll pull in dbus regardless

I have -gtk3 set in make.conf. It was the test flag that did it. I set -test for glib in package.use and it compiled without dbus just fine.

polite sage. Forgot to mention LibreOffice tries to pull in dbus if you have the bluetooth flag set. It's set in the desktop profile. another one to add to package.use if you aren't using a bare bones profile

It depends on whether your soundcard supports mixing. if it does, like all the consumer onboard ones, it'll work. If they don't you'll ne pulse or anything as a software mixer or there'll only be one app able to play at the same time indeed

Complete trainwreck of a protocol that needs wrapper libraries to be even remotely usable.
Program wrapper that somehow manages to be less usable than the program it wraps.
Broken shit on release, terrible hidden defaults that could actually cause hearing damage. Most people don't need it, those that do need it should use the completely superior Jack.
GNOME is a bunch of retard developers trying to be open source apple. Even though they constantly remove features to pander to retards and "build their brand" (quote), it manages to become larger every time.
Using a GTK3 program should instantly tell you why. Also, hard dependency on dbus and ten million accessibility daemons for no good reason.
"Let's fix X11 by removing the stuff people don't need. Oops, they actually needed that. Oops, they actually needed that, too. Oops, …"
The Wayland people have no fucking clue how to prevent the major thing that killed off X11 development, the extension mess. In ten years Wayland will be the same unmaintainable clusterfuck that X11 is today. Also the typical dishonest freedesktop.org advertising. Remember "there are no key loggers on Wayland" and "just use VNC lol"?
Additionally, they try to push other crapware through their position, like the client-side decoration garbage. "Just link this 2MB GUI toolkit into your simple X11 program so window decorations work under our new protocol lol, Linux desktop 2018!"

but muh per-application volume levels

How? Are you talking about its clipping-like artifacts?

Have you actually managed to keep it (and dbus) out of your setup? Once I try to avoid it nothing ever can be emerged.

Not that bad. It's just a simplified IPC.
It is bloat though.
It's just bloat. I only use it on laptops where I may need to change my connection easily but really wicd works just as well for that.
I would use wicd if it were installed by default on Slackware
Been using it since Slackware adopted it. I never really cared for audio junk much before but it makes things easier for me using obs and stuff. pavucontrol is easy to use.
Yeah I like some things being spoonfed to me.
GNOME is pure cancerous bloat. Always has been from day 1 and always will be.
It's not that bad but I like Qt, FLTK, or even gtkmm better for writing though.
I won't get into what I like about what but I will say that GTK+3 going full on MCV for a simple list view is complete stupidity.
"oh we can do everything better than X11 because X11 is old and messy"
then there were all the insufferable wayland fanboys.
At least they tried though

Normally, system-level volume and application level volume stack, so if system is at 33% and the application at 200%, you'll have the volume at 66% of the normal one. This is predictable and makes sense. However, the idiots at Microsoft needed to "fix" this because apparently the average user is too retarded for multiplication. So they made a horrible thing where if you raise the application volume over the system volume, the system volume goes up as well, because that's "intuitive" according to some UX designer shitstain.

Now the Pulseaudio people wouldn't be who they are if they didn't implement this too, because surely it will bring forth the Year of the Linux Desktop. Of course, they turned it on by default and documented it so badly that lots of maintainers didn't even know about that option.
Unfortunately, many programs set their volume on startup, which together with the system-wide volume increase then frequently used to set the volume to ear rape levels. This happened in particular with Youtube videos back in the day. Taking off your headphones before you start any video was FUN. By now this is probably fixed, but I'll forever remember it as a prime example of why Poettering is a fucking moron.

I did, but I had to switch a few programs out. Note that Firefox has a hard dependency on GTK3 (and thus dbus) now.

And of course, right after posting I remember how this shit was called. "Flat volumes". Jewgling for that gave me this post that might illuminate the problem more than my adhoc rant. >Reddit, but what can you do.
reddit.com/r/linux/comments/2rjiaa/horrible_decisions_flat_volumes_in_pulseaudio_a/

The problem with X is not the extensions, but rather that the design itself is shit and unsuitable for modern PCs. Wayland was made to be secure and to add everything as extensions.
Personally, I'd prefer Mir a thousand times over Wayland.

That's still the default on most distros except Arch. That's technically not a bug, but intended behaviour. Not that it's any less of a retarded default.
The only problem I've ever had with Pulse is a long standing Firefox bug: whenever it starts playing an HTML5 video, Firefox sets its volume to 100 % which is essentially earrape. This only happens when Pavucontrol is installed, which means it's a fuck up on Mozilla's part.

Does this even mean anything?

Great job Xorg really well designed system.

Oh, it's muh keyloggers again.

...

Oh, and the source for is: itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.current.html
It contains many links to bug reports and such.

m.slashdot.org/thread/40603337

Here's another article talking about X: phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=x_wayland_situation&num=1

The X11 devs also want to replace X11: x.org/wiki/Development/X12/#Errors.2C_Oversights_and_Omissions

On screen lockers and X:
blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2015/01/why-screen-lockers-on-x11-cannot-be-secure/

More X vulnerabilities: lists.x.org/archives/xorg-announce/2014-December/002500.html

Sorry faggot I'll be sticking with X.

hm, what about seamonkey and chromium? I guess netsurf or w3m won't be enough.

Hm, you really mean the system volume is raised, the mixers master? I haven't noticed that ever, neither on Linux nor on Windows. On my Arch setup (which has pulse, contrary to my gentoo) The master volume control sits peacefully at 85%. Then on the other hand, applications putting out audio at clipping levels happens all the time. I try not to ever have any volume control in the (digital) signal chain at 100%, with a top down priority. I don't know if this actually true in the digital realm, but I approach it kind of like I would approach it in the analog realm: First I see the source is at a safe level. Then I, less carefully, back off the master a little. My reasoning here would obviously be, that the signal can already clip before ever hitting the DAC because there always might be some DSP algorithm in the signal chain that can clip. Once you've brought it to the analog realm clipping-free, it's not that much of a problem, most mixers even sound relatively clean when you hit the reds a little. But digital, once you're over 0 your ears will get cancer and depending on the volume your tweeters might burn.
But the thing with pulse is, it doesn't even seem to even matter anymore if it's clipping, because there's that jitter going on thats just as annoying. Still not gonna boot Windows - lots of vinyl to listen to

They could easily infiltrate the X development or hell, just infiltrate the maintainers of any big binary distro or make an AUR/PPA and serve users modified versions of any program, since any program under X can read and modify the inputs and contents of the screen.
How are they supposed to fix the lack of multithread, permissions and the clusterfuck that are inputs without rewriting the entire thing? That's the whole point of Wayland (which, by the way, has many of X11's developers.)

That's because Arch and Ubuntu are the only distros that disable flat levels by default.

X11 is an abomination, it makes me wanna shitpost about putting 3D drivers into the kernel so that we can blur out the init script log after booting and fade in the login screen with a similarly cool way (It's just a login shell though. Maybe an openGL rendered ncurses window). Then there'll be a sexy computer voice greeting you. I mean, why not, after all, finally make the future like what we imagined it to in 80's and 90's movies?

That doesn't really address my point. The developers have no plan how to prevent Wayland from turning into the same clusterfuck X11 is now, and the shortsightedness so far doesn't inspire confidence in me that they won't need one. Will they just continually start over from scratch in the style of GNOME?

You'll have to explain this logic to me.

I haven't tried Seamonkey or Chromium, but I would expect at least chromium to pull in even more cancer. Lynx is surprisingly usable for a lot of things, even though initial configuration is somewhat of a pain in the arse because you have to explicitly enable in a config that certain config options can be changed. Don't ask me why.

Right now I'm still keeping the last GTK2 Firefox around for the few incompatible sites I need to use, but when support for that is dropped (or it becomes too much of a security issue) I'll have to look for something else. Maybe somebody will have written a small shell on top of cargo or something similar by then.

I'm pretty sure it was, but I've been Pulseaudio-free for several years now. You should be able to reproduce this behaviour on Windows 7 at least.

It ran fine on a single CPU running at 8 MHz and hasn't changed much since. How do we make ls or cd multi threaded?

You fucking cuck.

You're samefagging now, this board really needs IDs.

The Wayland devs have made many, many stupid decisions. That's why they worked with X, seems to be kind of a requisite.
Wayland has also it's shortcomings: XWayland is apparently locked at 60 FPS max, Wayland lacks many functions, introduces input lag and the idea of putting everything into the window manager is stupid, wastes developer's time and means that once again every DE will have to implement basic stuff like font rendering and mouse acceleration by themselves.
Wayland is shit, but that doesn't mean X is any good. If anything Wayland is at least safer than X.
Mir would've been a better solution, just like Upstart would've been better than systemd; but then again Canonical is stupid and the community is too busy sucking Red Hat's cock to support them.
The bug has been reported several times and the solution is always "uninstall Pavucontrol."
Since it works fine without Pavucontrol and Firefox is the only program to do this, I can only assume either Firefox or Pavucontrol are at fault. However, Firefox should not set the volume to the max when playing a HTML5 stream.

A program could easily crash the entire X session and bring down all other programs with it.
No since their operation isn't affected by the amount of threads it uses.
No u
?

Programs like that either don't get installed, or get fixed promptly. Anyway X is extremely lightweight, why go looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist?

Sorry, nobody's interested in your CIAnigger Wayland shit.

I used to run XFree86 comfortably on a 33 MHz 486 with 8 megs RAM. That was the mid 90's, before they started piling on tons of crap. For games, you could use DGA, that was good enough. It should never have gotten more bloated or complicated than that.
Yeah I don't give a shit. Quake 1 ran fine on a low-end Pentium in software mode. Doom ran fine on my 486. Games after that sucked ass anyway.

Attached: vtwm-hawkeyd.gif (1024x768, 99.71K)

OpenGL at this point tends to work perfectly on X, unless you're an NVIDIA cuck anyway.

Enjoy your keyloggers, lack of vsync and retarded design then.