First Programming Language

If C++ is your first language, please don't. Otherwise I've heard good things about c++ primer.
If you're good at math you can go for scheme. Otherwise I'd suggest either python or ruby.
C could also work, and if you don't learn it first I'd suggest you learn it afterwards.

Thread will probably be deleted so either go to the sticky or the /prog/ sticky.

First learn the shell, learn it before you learn any other language. The shell is not for programming, but for glueing programs together. You will be surprised how far that can get you. the shell is like duct tape, you will be using it all the time.

As for real programming languages, it depends.

Small and easy language, close to the metal. Good if you want to do lower-level stuff and twiddle individual bits. Higher-level tasks like string manipulation become a pain though. It will also teach you to be careful because of how easy it is to shoot yourself into the foot.

Simple syntax and gigantic selection of libraries. It does a lot of things "magically" for you at the cost of performance, but if performance doesn't matter it's a good choice. Use it if you want to get shit done quick&dirty, but still want something that can scale up.

The only language for scripting web pages. It's OK for what it was meant to do, but don't use it for other tasks. The main problem is that Javascript was designed to be used by retards, assuming that if the code is wrong it's better to guess what the programmer had in mind rather than crash hard and tell the programmer to fix his shit. The script will chug along just fine until it does something stupid and you will have no idea why.

Some of the best languages, being dragged down by the autism of their communities. Use it if you don't need a large community and want a powerful and elegant language. They have some fantastic concepts (the syntax, metaprogramming) which blow other languages out of the water. However, the communities are smaller, there are fewer libraries and chances are you won't find many people to work with. It also happens that the standards leave so much room for interpretation, that every implementation becomes its own minor dialect. Notable implementations are SBCL (Common Lisp), GNU Guile (Scheme) and Racket (formerly a Scheme, but has since become its own thing).

So they used three different languages. And then they switched from an unnamed OS to UNIX and everything went wrong. What was the unnamed OS that they used before UNIX? Whatever it was it must have been better than UNIX. I would like to know what OS it was so that I could run it. Does anyone know what it was? Why wasn't it mentioned specifically?

The fucking shell is the cancer of UNIX.

SunOS, nigger.

I stopped programming 7 years ago when I dropped out of college and gave up on everything, but decided to learn it again because people can't design software to save their lives and I'm unhappy with everything that I currently use (I can't find anything that I couldn't massively improve pretty easily if I made it myself), so I just want to make everything from scratch, since I have the time and the autismbux. I'm just relearning C, and I know a little bit of Common Lisp, but C should give me optimal performance, and that's what I want, because that is simply always important to me. What people say really doesn't have any value to me because they can't prove shit, so it's safe to assume that they don't know what they're talking about. The fact is that C has been so widely used for so long that not knowing it isn't something that I can get away with right now. If I need something else for some reason, I can learn it later pretty quickly. Not a big deal.

Also, someone could easily argue that the hard way is the best way, so difficulty isn't all that relevant. Doing things the easy way may end up making you soft and limiting you in the long run. It could make difficult things more difficult later on. You probably shouldn't think about that too much. Just go and learn something. Until you actually know exactly how computers work, you probably shouldn't have an opinion anyway, since you won't be able to test and verify anything yourself, and adopting someone else's opinion is a dumb idea because they are probably wrong and what they say has no real merit.

Okay.. So are UNIX haters hating on the commercial version of UNIX, or are they hating on the generic OS that we call UNIX?

SunOS is UNIX. And if the author of that text is complaining about moving from SunOS (UNIX) to UNIX then I don't understand his complaint and criticism at all.

You better respond to me and explain your position and offer valid justification for your inadequate reply.

Step one is to get adopted by a wealthy industrialist and inherit his company and fortune when he dies, then.

Jokes aside, the "what should be muh first programming language Zig Forums?" rarely results in a helpful thread for the OP, especially when the prompt is so unfocused. What do you mean "becoming real life tony stark?" Do you want to work on designing futuristic battlefield equipment? Or something else?

It doesn't matter whether you started with a shit language or not.
As long as it helps you understand programming a little.

✓ programming socks

daily reminder that it took lispfags TWO MONTHS to produce a 30+MB executable of a barebones text editor

pic related

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They were a collection of lolcows and literal paid shills for VMS. None of that shit had any real meaning and I have no idea why it was dug back up.

x86 assembly. not that it's good but because everything uses it. C LARPers will sound like faggots once you do this

They're the gateway to faggotry, self harm, and suicide. Get clean. Need a version of this image tailored to tech.

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These messages are between these supposed "shills." Why would shills shill to people they knew were shills?

>>>/bog/

It was like any "grass roots" shit today like "I need feminism because" signs. Some are lolcows, some are normalfags, some are "as a white man, I..". These weren't walled-off communities, mailinglists and newsgroups (and write/talk) were the main ways we communicated and were more like reddit. Shilling was in high gear at that time and every tech community around the date of implosion of UNIX is full of it.

Either Python or Scheme is a good place to start. Scheme has a more minimal syntax, which will force you to think about things on a fundamental level. People who studied other languages find recursion difficult, but that's not a problem for lispers. Python has more libraries, which will demystify a lot of seemingly complex tasks for you. That's huge motivation to somebody just getting started.

I started with Scheme personally, but I don't think you'd be wrong in choosing Python

Whatever you do, do not start with C, C++, Java, C#, Ruby, Javascript, Common Lisp, or Haskell. You should learn some of them eventually (especially C and Haskell) but they are not nearly as valuable to beginners as Scheme or Python are.

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POLECAT KEGABS

All of those languages are from Xerox. It was probably the Xerox Star or the Xerox Alto.

double nigger

Never learn scheme, haskell, or common lisp. You'll have to unlearn a lot of bad ideas that never worked.

Go use windows stupid nigger

t. LARPer

I have bugs older than you.

Only the ones still lodged in your rectum.

Yes, but that's what we are stuck with, so suck it up. It's like duct tape, good for sticking things together quickly, and if you try to do something complex and brittle you are an idiot for using the wrong tool.

thanks. i think i will start with scheme by reading SICP. If i am not autist enough i can always switch to python anyway. and yeah i'm planning to learn C and haskell too in the future.

I like your philosophy but if one of the best university in the world does something, they gotta know something that i don't know right? and i'm not just relying on one person. I'm merely gathering feedback and advice so i can think about it myself with enough information.

such as? can you please elaborate?

Its just an unrealistic ideal to aim for really. I know its not possible to graduate from MIT with two masters at 17, create advanced exoskeleten, figure out cold fusion and make sentient AI.

My goal is to understand most of the STEM fields. From cryptography to robotics. I want to work with cutting edge tech like artificial intelligence, nanotech, superconductors etc. It would be nice to have my own company and not worry about financials when i'm doing the research and engineering too. I know it doesnt sound very plausable but thats what i want.

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You don't understand, it's cancer. It spreads. You start something in it thinking it'll be small, the project grows and becomes more important, new features that should have been in a language that isn't impossible to make bug-free are getting written in shell, other programs that need to talk to that program have to exec a shell as there's no way to do IPC, those programs start adding shellscript stubs to call the other shellscript to have control of the shell to fix some of its issues, those shellscript stubs start increasing in size as attempts to work around the infinite issues with shell are added, etc..
You can avoid this by not writing anything in shell. Otherwise, you're just gambling on failing to write anything useful enough in shell for it to become malignant. Meanwhile, we are still digging out from the decades old legacy of "what could possibly go wrong?" use of shell like libtool that was a small shell project that went malignant and has probably wasted many billions of dollars of electricity since its creation.

C++ Primer by Lippman is the best book imo, but use The C++ Programming Language for reference.
Do not buy C++ Primer Plus because it teaches C-like C++, but C primer Plus is a good book on C.

You are me. I'm going to learn Haskell.

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AKA how not to use C++ like a pajeet

if you want to use C, why not just use C ? There is no sense in using C++ if in reality you want to use C (C is often the less-niggerlicious choice) Stephen Prata's C++ Primer Plus uses a language standard from last millennium and C++ has evolved a lot since then, so it's better to use another book. If you want to learn C++, you should learn C++11 or newer. But it's crucial to also learn about pointers and dynamic memory allocation.

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You know what, you just convinced me to try lua. Think I will start with this? lua.org/pil/contents.html

Because you can use C++ as "C with useful tweaks and additions", not as "C-like language with 70 tons of terrible features stacked into an eldrich abomination of bloat".

lua.org/manual/5.1/
luajit.org/luajit.html
5.1 is luajit version (lua but almost as fast as c and can use c data types and call c functions)
after 5.1 design flaws like _ENV exist.

mingw best compiler for luajit.org/download.html

such as?

Templates for compile-time type checking instead of casting to and from void pointers all over the place.

oh yeah add 10 billion bloat to get the class keyword or closures or whatever is trendy these days

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The right way to write C++ is sparingly. If you force yourself to use all the horrible shit in C++ you'll wreck your code.
The programming language benchmark thing on Debian's server used to be a good example of this as they had a rule that the C++ benchmark should be using C++ features where they exist and as a result it was slow and bloated compared to C. I went to get an example to paste but they seem to have replaced them with C-like C++ and also crippled the C versions to not use macro expansion. It's like someone got their dick bent at C++ losing and rigged it. The level of bullshit is pretty high now actually, like even using GNU extensions in the C++ and not providing a hashtable at all in C:
>using HashTable = __gnu_pbds::cc_hash_table;

The "shell is not for programming" is UNIX weenie bullshit like "C is portable assembly." The shell was meant for programming, but it sucks at it, so they made up bullshit like "it's really not for programming, it's just glue." Anyone who believes that doesn't know about shar, configure scripts, or the many other uses of shell before Perl and Python mostly replaced it.

C to UNIX was meant to be like PL/I to Multics and Lisp to Lisp machines, but C sucks, so they said it's "portable assembly" and string manipulation is a "hard problem" because "assembly" (on a PDP-11) doesn't do anything about strings. C weenies only think it's good at bit twiddling because it's even worse at everything else, but it even sucks at that. Common Lisp, Ada, and PL/I support bit manipulation on long strings or arrays of bits, which work the same on 1 or 1000 bits. C makes you shift and mask everything and split bit sequences into words and bytes because that's how the PDP-11 works.

is correct.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlisp
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesa_(programming_language)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smalltalk

SunOS is what replaced their previous systems and it's what he was complaining about. There's a saying that goes something like "the only time Sun would make something that doesn't suck is when they make a vacuum."

Because they're not shills. They made it because the systems they used had to be replaced by UNIX because clueless "decision makers" were forcing them to use it. Like he said, "market forces completely overwhelmed technological forces" and "decision makers who were not technically competent" were behind it. It's the same kind of bullshit that leads to using Java for business software and JavaScript for everything not running in a browser (and many things in a browser).

The shilling was coming from the UNIX community. UNIX weenies shilled so hard that it sounds like a parody, like this Sun bullshit about "Why UNIX Will Win on the Desktop". It's all bandwagon effect bullshit that has nothing to do with technological aspects of UNIX itself. Lisp machines, VMS, Multics, etc. were marketed to the technically competent user. Everything is about what you can do with the machine, not what other people are doing. UNIX was marketed to the "decision makers who were not technically competent" who are only concerned with what other people are doing (or what they think they are doing) because they lack the technical knowledge to evaluate anything themselves.

Unless you and both work at AT&T, you are not stuck with it. That attitude is why there's so much shit software out there.

Date: Wed, 30 Jan 91 11:53:59 ESTSubject: PropagandaJust so you know what the enemy is babbling about these days...

Why UNIX Will Win on the Desktop By Dr. Eric E. Schmidt Sun Microsystems, Inc. It's trendy to say that the line between PCs and workstations isblurring. The real truth is that UNIX-based systems are taking over,and by the end of the 1990s, the market will clearly distinguishbetween two types of desktop computers: machines that run DOS andmachines that run UNIX. DOS machines will be purchased primarily assingle-user systems for stand-alone applications. And in the long run,the only single-user machines the only DOS machines will be in people'shomes.Why is this? Because the power of distributed, networked computing iseffecting a profound change on corporations. The fact is that humansare inherently networked: we inherently need to commmunicate with eachother. Anyone that has networked application needs will turn toUNIX-based solutions, because UNIX is the only multi-tasking,multi-user, multi-vendor operating system available today. That's whatmakes it the only choice for the next generation of distributedapplications. That's why UNIX will win. It's the closest thing theindustry has to a pure open standard. Because AT&T Bell Labs made itavailable in source form in the 1970s, nearly all systems companieseither base themselves on UNIX or offer a form of it, including majorplayers such as IBM, Apple, Intel, HP, Sun, DEC, Olivetti, Fujitsu andUnisys.

Nobody cares about about butthurt posted almost 30 years ago on some mailing list for nerds you keep reposting in every thread. Be useful for once and go write a proper text editor in Lisp.

That's how all modern ISAs work. Can't bitch about that and also that it's not portable assembly. Choose a side, faggot.
This is how I can tell you weren't there. The shilling and FUD at that time from the corporate players was unprecedented and ridiculous and eventually imploded that whole market. Tradeshows were pure venom and ham-fisted attempts to seed watercooler memes about the competition. You cluelessly copypaste some of that in threads.

I am not , but are you the one who keeps bitching about the text editor? I bet you don't know about the old Lisp Systems. Also, what is Gnu Emacs? You fucking nigger monkey.

A C editor with a Lisp interface. Made in C because it would be way too slow and unportable otherwise, but still manages to be slow.

Short answer:
C/C++ can be used for embedded and PC programming. Avoid using pointers.
If you get familiar with C/C++ first, you will look at a lot of other oddball stuff and wonder why they even bothered.

Longer answer:
Many early languages were intentionally kept extremely simple due to limitations in memory capacity at the time.
They tried different fundamental concepts to get around the limited syntax, and they weren't really made to be easy to write.
They're not good, they're just old.
They are re-taught mainly for academic reasons, and only still used where the output required is easily within their abilities.

Bare metal: C
Data analysis and scripting: Python
Web: Javascript
You only need three

Get with the times and do bare metal in a browser so you can program it using javascript.

C

Larper detected

LISP is cancer. Screw functional programming.

FORTH.
skilldrick.github.io/easyforth/
Followed by:
forth.com/starting-forth/

I hate this image, because as a trap, it's so, so wrong

I never went through a mgtow stage or misogyny stage, traps aren't about hating women and tfw no gf

whoever made that is a fucking retard and a normalfag, and you're a cucked normalfag moron for posting it

...

goml

I suggest you get the vocal chord thing. most traps still have masculine voice

I asked what OS the writer was using before he switched to UNIX. You provided no answer and only posted links to wikipedia pages that I had already read. You say that is correct, but he did not name the OS either, so he can't possibly be correct. He named the hardware, and of course the hardware is different than the OS.

One of the computers named by ran an OS called Pilot. There is barely any information about it online. I have gathered that it was a single-user OS with some bizarre design features. For starters, it was run in triplicate. That is, three instances of the OS were run concurrently. Further:

I would like more information about Pilot. Why was Pilot better than UNIX? Why have I never heard of it? Why have YOU never heard of it, despite your criticism of UNIX and your opinion that the OS's predating UNIX were better? I want a comparison of Pilot to UNIX. And I want to know of other OS's that are similar to Pilot and how those compare to UNIX.

I agree with many of the criticisms of UNIX. I like that Pilot was implemented in about 24,000 lines of code, but there is no evidence that it was better than UNIX. In the absence of anything better than UNIX I will continue to use it. I have asked anti-UNIX advocates time and again for a viable alternative to UNIX and every time they fail to offer a real suggestion. Instead they try to direct the discussion to other topics to avoid admitting the truth: There is no viable alternative to UNIX and the anti-UNIX advocates lack the tech skills to do anything about. Rather than make any real effort at improving the situation they complain incessantly.

I want an alternative to UNIX. So again I ask you. What should I use instead of UNIX?

That pic was showing the natural progression. Of course you can skip steps and jump straight to faggotry.

That pic is fundamentally wrong, because that isn't the natural progression, at all

mgtows and incels hate women because they can't fuck them, so they aggressively jerk off to them

Too bad. UNIX is like C in that it's closely mapped to the hardware and you build your additional shit on top of it.
The only departure from it in the future will be when we stop using the hardware for security. I've mentioned it before but small brains don't think I'm serious: all code will run in ring 0 and using the same page table. User code, kernel, code, etc.. No hardware protection between processes at all. Programs will all be compiled down to a form that can be verified as safe by the OS prior to running. IPC and syscalls will just be regular calls. It will be much more efficient.

And the next step is looking for an alternative to women, which leads to fucking or fapping to traps.

Nobody cares faggot. Go back to /g/.
This is an actual technology board.

Gnu Emacs isn't slow. Stop using (((spacemacs))) Run Emacs in daemon mode, if the startup time is too slow for you (for me it's just a couple of seconds even with gtk/motif GUI) Btw, did you know that you don't have to close the window at all, in fact you can use Emacs as your login shell, if you really want to. Also, most of Gnu Emacs is written in lisp, all that's written in C is the core. But nice FUD overall, you fucking nigger shill.

Lisp isn't necessarily functional; lisp supports all past and future paradigms of programming.

Thanks for the links, user!

Pls stop being in denial, fag.

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Modern ISAs have bit extract and insert, like LDB and DPB on the PDP-10, which the Lisp functions are named after. C weenies expect to shift "long long" on a computer where shifts can only shift 8-bit bytes one bit at a time. They expect to do multiplication on a computer with no multiply instruction. That's because the compiler takes care of handling this, just like compilers for other languages. The only complaint anyone has about segmentation or tagged memory is that C can't run on it well, which means C is not very portable because only C and C++ have problems running on this hardware.

Those corporate players and shills were all UNIX companies. I'm talking about the world outside of UNIX and C. UNIX-Haters were people who used Xerox and Symbolics workstations, mainframes, VMS, ITS, Multics, etc.

You can't do anything with strings or arrays in C without pointers.

They "bothered" because of hardware, lines of code, the time it takes to write software, security, readability, compile-time checks, run-time checks, debugging ability, compiler size, data sharing, IPC, concurrency, and many other important reasons.

The OS Xerox made that was intended to run on the hardware.

mcjones.org/paul/pilot/pilot.html
pages.cs.wisc.edu/~sschang/OS-Qual/kernel/pilot.htm

For the same reason UNIX weenies say UNIX was the first OS written in a high-level language and the first OS with a hierarchical file system even though Multics did both before UNIX existed and the inspiration for doing it in UNIX came directly from Multics. The revisionism is even worse than it was when the UNIX-Haters wrote about it.

Mezzano, once it's good enough.

Bullshit. The UNIX file system, processes, users, /proc, /dev, pipes, and all that other bullshit that the hundreds of system calls provide are abstractions created by software. The "tools" have even less to do with hardware, unless the hardware happens to be a PDP-11 tape drive. Lisp machines, VMS, Multics, MacOS, etc. provide totally different abstractions. There might be some similarities because a lot of them have a hierarchical file system, but file systems are not the only way to use disk space.

Hardware can be used for security (provided there are no secret programs and OSes like C and MINIX in Intel ME), but it's not. A user mode program cannot do anything unless the kernel allows it to. All of these security problems are design flaws in UNIX itself.

That's how Lisp machines work except there is hardware protection in the form of tagged memory. Lisp machines are designed to give the user control over everything running on the computer.

>> I once went to hear a talk by Thompson at MIT. Thompson>> said one of the professors had said to him, "I hate you.>> UNIX stopped all research in operating systems." Thompson>> apologized. Actually, it's more the hardware vendors fault. Forabout 15 years now, the solution has been to throw morehardware (memory, cpu cycles, graphics co-processors, and soon) at the users. UNIX has the dubious advantage of lookingmore like "a real operating system" to the microprocessorcrowd (who are used to CPM/MSDOS/etc). So they think that by installing unix, it makes theirsystem into a "real computer". In fact, unix is just aminicomputer operating system (at best). So what they endup with is a box with more MIPs than a 70s mainframe, morememory than a 70s mainframe, more disk than a 70s mainframe,and a 70s minicomputer operating system. And it runs aboutas fast as a 70s minicomputer, asn supports as many users.The wonder is that anyone is surprised.

...

i agree with this nigger. I'd like to add though that the first lang doesn't really matter. I wouldnt recommend a lisp tho. It's an entirely different approach than the procedural syntax in C-like languages.

Also when I got into programming it looked like magic, but once I grasped that all I did was either use a library or create my own tiny library from other libraries, it was a major step in understanding programming. From there on you'll be able to be productive relatively fast in a lot of other languages.

Niqqa pls.

You can easily solve this with either less retarded CPU datastructures or by adding an instruction that flushes sensitive CPU datastructures.
Did the word "verify" confuse you? Read about Java bytecode verification for an example.

Fuck you. is one of the best responses in this thread.

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*unzips pants*

honestly, this is about right.

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(((spacemacs))) is niggerlicious cancer even if you prefer vi keybindings. I happen to unironically prefer vanilla Gnu Emacs keybindings (remap caps lock to control) Just install the packages you actually need, instead of using the flavour of month meme distribution of Gnu Emacs.

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spacemacs let's you avoid the ricer faggotry... oh wait a gentoo flag.

By including a lot of crap you probably won't use even once? Pls, that's not even an argument. No one forces you to rice anything. You could just install evil-mode (if you so wish) and m-x customize-themes and be done with it. It's that simple. This is way easier than to customizing vim, for example.

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Here's the ebook. It doesn't have page numbers just so you know.

Let's see /g/entard
Like what? Like an irc client? you moron.
The entire point of emacs is ricing.
lol you think people install dozens of packages because they want colorschemes? Fucking hell.
Typical gentoo user you only think in memes.

...

No one actually uses emacs anymore. You can tell as there are no full plugins to other IDEs like there are for vim.

I have a botnet current year intel i7 ddr4 nvme nvidia quadro laptop and I think emacs is pretty slow. Its not the loading times, startup takes no time, but its buffer manipulations that don't feel snappy. I'm getting my hands dirty with textadept atm to see if I can replace emacs and keep my bindings. I've been loving elisp and emacs for the past 4 years, but somehow it just creeped in that it doesnt display caret movement or key insertions as it should.

typical LARPer. caches are introductory material in "CS" and gamedev

UNIX is based on strings which is ultra inefficient, insecure, and buggy

there are lots of people like this, especially around chans, reddit, and Zig Forums

found the small brain

java bytecode verification is buggy shit tho. but the problem of code isolation is easy to solve really

you retarded vim nigger. Emacs is the only program you need. Emacs doesnt need extensions to IDEs because its fucking emacs and that functionality you're after by
is at least available in melpa

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I was actually thinking about writing a PoC kernel that has VM in the scheduler executing (LLVM?) bytecode as JIT, maybe expanding it out later. Does anyone wanna do the logo?

lmao he went full retard. How pathetic.

So you don't have any arguments left? pls, go back to Uganda and take your editor with you

Cuckchanners sure are smart. Sorry I mean botnet+cuckchan wouldn't want to upset you captcha niggers now.

vim is shit. white person uses neovim or Gnu Emacs with evil-mode.

spacemacs. best of both worlds, don't have to spend the next decade customizing a config