M-dicks

Anyone have an opinion on M-Disc? It has been out for a few year now and I can't find anyone saying they have had issues with it yet. I have piles of PDFs, scanned books, and software I want to keep forever. At the same time I dont want to be constantly spending money keeping everything spun up on a RAID.

Is M-disc just a meme? Do I need to just get serious and step up to LTO tape?

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Other urls found in this thread:

cs.huji.ac.il/~springer/DigitalNeedle/index.html
yss.la.coocan.jp/mdisc/mdisc_top.htm
goughlui.com/2015/10/16/review-tested-verbatim-lifetime-archival-millenniatam-disc-4x-bd-r-25gb/
panasonic.net/cns/blu-ray_disc/archive.html
hightechnewstoday.com/aug-2011-high-tech-news-archives/137-aug-11-2011-high-tech-news.shtml
microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/indexmag.html?http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/artsep16/mol-mdisc-review.html
mysterybox.us/blog/2017/7/21/protecting-your-digital-assets-part-2-best-practices
twitter.com/AnonBabble

So it's a DVD but it sounds all scientific and stuff?
Does it actually work?

Optical media master race reporting in.

I think they're legit, M-Discs use actual physical raised and lowered pits (just like pressed discs) as opposed to regular recordable optical media that just changes the color of a foil dye. The physical pits are more stable than the altered dye, therefore the data integrity persists for longer.

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M-Discs are great but usually overkill. They could lasts many hundreds of years.

Probably just a meme

I've made some backups of digital data that I need to retain for the rest of my life on M-DISC. Based on the research I did when I was looking for a solution, it seemed like the best option for me. The "Inorganic Data Layer" referred to in your image is apparently some mineral-like substance which is expected to have great longevity. The polycarbonate layers are expected to degrade before the data layer, but even that's on a scale of hundreds of years. I guess the idea is that some theoretical archivist 1000 years from now might have to discard the polycarbonate layers, but that with sufficient effort, the data on the data layer could be retrieved.

It's worth noting that M-DISC may not be the "best" digital storage method. Depending on your needs and budget, something else might be better. Magnetic tape is still an option, and while it doesn't last all that long (few decades, tops) you can just continue to make copies to keep it "fresh." The big drawback is that tape is expensive. The readers are, anyway.

Another option would be big, redundant arrays of HDDs.

In the end, I went with M-DISC because it is relatively simple, relatively cheap (compared to buying tons of HDDs every few years, or a tape reader), and relatively long-lasting, according to all of the evidence I saw.

As with a lot of these technologies, I'm more worried about the drives and software becoming scarce than the degradation of the medium itself. I suspect that DVD readers and the relevant software will no longer be manufactured/maintained long, long before my M-DISCS degrade. As DVD/Blu-ray readers start to become scarce, my plan is to stock up on them, and then perhaps to stock up on hardware to connect the drives to, if needed.

And depending on what you want to store, digital storage may not be the best option at all. PDFs? Scanned books? Do you have hard copies? Acid-free archival paper will last 500 years, minimum, given proper storage conditions (acceptable temperature and relative humidity). We have parchment from many hundreds of years ago, and papyrus from thousands of years ago. Sumerian clay tablets lasted ~5500 years. All these whiz-bang gadgets we have these days are pretty nice, I guess, but sometimes the old ways have their charms. Some researchers say we're entering a digital dark age. Look it up.

Oh, one other note. If memory serves, Millenniata, the company that was formed to create and market M-DISCs, went bankrupt and was sold a while back. They were bought by another company, which I guess intends to continue manufacturing (or licensing the manufacturing of) M-DISCs. I don't know if that will ever create a supply problem, but I guess it could. I bought a bunch of M-DISCs a couple years ago, though, and I don't need permanent backups enough that I'm going through them quickly, so I haven't worried about it too much.

Fuck no, the image you used implies it was made by cianiggers fucking with people. Are the cd-R's for such disks FOSS? No? Then its fucking botnet.

They're great, but they're only writable once. Other than that you're fucked if the stuff you burn to it gets updated.

Thanks for the reply.
The thing that is drawing me to M-Disc is that supposedly any normal DVD/BR drive can read them. Think about all the drives floating around in old PCs and laptops. LTO may be proven and a mature tech but the drives are rare even today.

The stuff I feel is important yes.Stuff I feel is vital to have I run off the laser printer and bind. I am always hitting up abebooks, ebay, and thriftstores for technical manuals and reference books.
The M-disc idea is for random information and software that is not vital but I would like to keep.

Yes I agree. Stuff is (((disappeared))) off the internet everyday or the mirrors just plain go offline. The mention of the old Walnut Creek FTP site in another thread got me really thinking about all the shit thats been lost in just my lifetime.
Who knows what the future will bring. Maybe SHTF or maybe I just go innawoods. Would be nice to have some stuff saved offline.

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OK good to know. I should be able to just burn everything once and put it away. I shouldn't need a constant supply once I get everything moved over.But I will stockpile a few packs for additions that may come up.


I am going to burn a few pre-CoC iso's of Slackware and gentoo. That is not botnet.

You are why this board is shit

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You're welcome.
I think I read that M-DISCs should be readable by "most" DVD/Blu-Ray drives, but they might just be hedging their bets. I've been able to read my burned M-DISCs (DVD) on every drive I've tried, including the cheapo no-name drive in my dad's mass-produced all-in-one desktop. I don't know under what circumstances they'd be unreadable, but I haven't encountered it.

That's not an arguement. Unless you are using a osciliscope to test the ethernet line, how can you trust that the drive that writes the m-disks isn't just sending all your data to the GCHQ before writing it? You can't be sure unless it is FOSS you stupid faggot. Even then, you can't be sure but still its more trustworthy that way.

Also that image contains the psyops symbol associated with the CIA, which might be a coincidence. But look it up, that symbol is commonly associated with MK-ULTRA and other such CIA operations.

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"..piles?..."

Get a normal (mechanical) SATA hard drive, save your stuff multiple times over on it, and then unplug it entirely and put it into a safe storage box in some anti-static foam. Treated that way, it will maintain data for at least 10 years. DO NOT leave it electrically connected to anything at all, since power surges are the main risk here.

After ten years, take it out and read it onto a new drive, of whatever the new storage standard (in common use!) is.

How long the storage media lasts is only half the problem, since you also need a way to read and write it.
And expecting any consumer-level media or media-reader device to be around longer than 10 years is already stretching your expectations.

(semi-related: did you know? --there is already some USB-1 devices that don't work in USB-3 plugs)

Well, I sure hope paranoid maladroit nerds like you aren't advocating for C--you can't even write something as simple as curl without having a hundred vulnerabilities. Maybe a CIA nigger has exploited the FOSS C/C++ software you use already, and you should set your trannybooted ThinkPad on fire?

Only the ones that got coincidentally burned like in a clay oven and survived - they didn't do this on purpose because it has a good chance to break the tablet.
If there was something like a clay-tablet producing-writing-and-burning all-in-one machine, that'd probably the ideal solution though.

...

there's tape but tape can only be read and written to sequentially

If i wanted to store data so itd last 100 years id use a zip drive.
Then again not even.
Idk what that thing is but it looks like overkill.

Ok good to hear. I will pick up a drive and some discs to get this project started.


I have TempleOS snapshots from 2015 and 2016. I know 100% these are not glowing. Today every copy online is suspect. M-Disc will carry God's temple in to the next millennia untainted by CIA.


All hard drives made today are shit. I have ST225 mfm drives that sat for decades that still spin up and work.Some old SCSI mac drives that still spin up. But IDE's and modern SATAs seem to die randomly after 5 or 10 years. Its been a race to the bottom on commodity drives. The only way storing shit on hard drives is safe is if you keep it spinning in a raid and actively monitor and maintain it by replacing drives that fail out. I am doing that now and it is a constant cost that I am trying to get away from.

Your saying M-disc wont be able to carry me to that point? What if the only thing available in 10 years is (((cloud)))? Wouldn't it be nice to have something that could safely get me past that point?

I am banking on the sheer number of dvd drives out in the wild and the fact I will probably still have some old computers around. Heck I still have my coco2 and the ddss 5.25 minidisk still works as well as the ccr cassette player. With a little maintenance and care things can last.

Tape > MDisc TBH

Not quite true. If you don't use the entire disc's capacity at once, stuff like multisession allows you to append additional data until you fill the entire disc.


Absolutely this. Using HDD/flash for offline storage is a REALLY BAD idea, online mirrored RAID with live SMART alert is the only safe option aside from tape or M-DISC (which should also be duplicated on media from different brands/batches). I learned this the hard way :-(

If you can afford thousands of dollars for a tape reader/writer and you have a workflow to ensure that the relatively short lifetime of tape won't result in data loss, sure, knock yourself out.

Well you know you could also record stuff like pub med and scientific journals and stuff like that.
Not just templeos and all the seasons of lucky star.

It's a disk you dumb nigger, how the fuck can it talk to the internet.
If you assume other hardware is compromised (such as the CPU), the disk is the last of your problems.

Great idea OP.

I'm sure optical drives and IDE interfaces are going to be totally common place on the tablets of the future. You should have no problem plugging one up.

For reference, my dad used to operate on the first IBM mainframes. As such his data was stored on those old IBM 355 hard drives (see pic).

Luckily my new dell laptop has a connection for one, so hooking it up was easy-peasey.

- t. M-DISC Sales Association

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imagine if theres a doomsday scenario and nobody can find a copy of an os to run their computers.
Then bam here comes this guy with templeos written on an m disk.

Seriously though, the future may be stranger than you can possibly imagine:
cs.huji.ac.il/~springer/DigitalNeedle/index.html

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I wonder how hard it would be to create a dvd reader at home. Has this ever been done as a project?

In the grimdark future all network capable operating systems will have government backdoors, which will be used by the central operations AI once they unleash it. All things "smart" will be infected and used by the AI, which will have the memories of all the big tech lizards. The few surviving humans will use TempleOS as they avoid the protein harvesters and iExterminators.

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Fast forward 60 years, you have shitload of files in a format that's been obsolete for the last 4 decades and the only way to read them is to use devices that are considered collector items. Then what? Nevermind the software side of the deal.

Same as my Apple /// files

There are billions of pc's and laptops in existence with DVDroms. You can still find floppy drives if you look around.

To think they will all vanish off the face of the earth isn't realistic. They won't be collector items they will be considered E-waste we will be stuck with forever.

You are extrapolating the last 30 yrs onto the next 100. "PC's" and "Computers" won't even exist as a category.
From our vantage point the future is essentially a tiny 3mm WiFi adapter that will be implanted in your brain. All computation will be done "in the cloud" and you will have just this bio-network interface to it.
Think you can ship off those DVDs to some service to upload into your "private" cloud? Think again. Your data wont clear the copyright checks nor the content approval for that...
You honest best choice is to just print everything out on paper then use a cloud-based OCR service to try to get it back into correct format by "reading" it 100 yrs from now.

This:
yss.la.coocan.jp/mdisc/mdisc_top.htm
goughlui.com/2015/10/16/review-tested-verbatim-lifetime-archival-millenniatam-disc-4x-bd-r-25gb/
panasonic.net/cns/blu-ray_disc/archive.html

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When's your universal incremental OS?

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Accurate.


This is a good idea. We can't even write moderately complex programs that aren't full of bugs and security flaws, and we're going to start putting hardware and software in the brain. Universal invasive neurosurgery when, amirite?

Have you tried turning off your router?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

But can it a hundred?

mebbe wax cylinders? :D

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Any passive storage denser than microfilm, that promises 'forever' is a meme.

It's not enough for disc to survive 50 years. You will need drive, computer able to use that drive and software to process and export data.

Yes, it's better than CDR that rots in decade - you will have to migrate your data slightly less frequently and you will have longer margin of error, but century lifetime (assuming it's true) is gimmick.

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OP here. I will be long dead in 50 years. If I can get my data to reliably last 20 years or so with out having to constantly tend to a raid I will be happy. M-dicks looks like the best option so far so I am going to give that a go.


Like I said above I have a lots of different stuff to store. Not just TempleOS though that may be the most important thing. Vital information is in hardcopy.


Exactly. After the dust settles from the SHTF we will need to rebuild.

I'm pretty sure it was music cds that put the rootkit on your pc user. Blank media is incapable of doing that as far as I know.

Which is as great a reason as any to fill one with goatse and similar assorted images for our posterity.

the absolute state of Zig Forums

then it doesn't last forever
what's the advantage over regular cartridges?

What the hell are you talking about?

He does his backups on an N64, don't you?

Carl Satan? Nah. Still a good idea though


I will get a faraday cage for it.

He means magnetic tape cartridges, what the hell are you even doing here?

Why not use a proper data archiving method, like paper?

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OH BOY!

Nature would like word with you.

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is there a FOSS program that rewrites all data on the disk exactly once to prevent bit flipping, or is this a waste of time? Surely Helium disks are shielded enough that data is reliable on them for more than 5 years, no? How would you test for this?

Oh, ddid you just come from Windows, or is tape archiving too hard?

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Motherfucking Blu ray niggers

Problem solved, now go buy a microscope.

...

...

That's basically what MDISC is. Etched synthetic rock. And you can read it with a microscope. The data rock layer can last 10,000 years. The issue is the motherfucking NIST says the plastic substrate that holds the data layer will "only" last 1000 years.
>hightechnewstoday.com/aug-2011-high-tech-news-archives/137-aug-11-2011-high-tech-news.shtml

>microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/indexmag.html?http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/artsep16/mol-mdisc-review.html

Write once isn't a flaw, it's a feature. It means someone can't go back and (((revise))) a snapshot.
MDISC is not a meme. Someone finally came up with the perfect archival media and what happens? The industry removes optical drives from computers.
>Go buy more (((cloud))) storage goy.

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Use punch tape.

why use shitty disks?
crystals can store data using holograms and will last until the end of time.

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Comer on, LTO Tape is cheap. mysterybox.us/blog/2017/7/21/protecting-your-digital-assets-part-2-best-practices

Also you can laminate your paper for PaperBack or Optar or Paperkey.

Just use mylar paper tape or microfilm with QR codes.

djzzzzzzuuu

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Faraday cages aren't cheap, but that's not why I'm excited for you to strip&rub off your own iron film.

Organic material is still organic. No amount of insulation prevents decomposition.

Just use cave paintings. Proven reliable, cheap, not backdoored by CIA. Use different caves for parity, use redundancy coding, and remember to store very clear and straightforward instruction for data retrieval.

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Doomsday senerio: M-Disc BluRay for critical stuff, HDD for important stuff, LTO for the rest.

Reminder that there is only one tried-and-true method for preserving your data for thousands of years.

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Apparently some people are ignoring M-Disc are a sham:
HDDs are too risky, SSD is here to stay, and tape is reliable if stored in a vacuum sealed magnesium box.

Can recommend if none raid.

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It is not the data on the platter that is the issue. The issue is the mechanics of the drive is very complicated with lots of failure points. You can't pull the platters out very easily and swap them in to another drive housing. Let a drive sit for years and lube in the spindle or head servomechanism can break down. Capacitors have a limited lifespan.


On BluRay the premium they get for "M-Disc" may be a sham.The quality isn't. The "M-Disc" BD formula looks to be the same as a normal BD-R. But on DVD-R "M-Disc" may be worth the money because you get a DVD-R with the better non-organic BD-R materiel.
M-Disc DVD-R burners are not special. They are just programmed to use the more powerful BD-R laser setting to burn "M-Disc" DVD-Rs.
So for DVD-R I would get "M-Disc" just because that guarantee's you are getting something decent. DVD-R's are all over the map from total shit to decent. There are some that are made with CD-r tier organic compounds that definitely do not last. On BD-R I would go with any good brand like Panasonic. M-Disc isn't special there. That has been my understanding of it all and it seems to agree with the conclusion Dr Gough reached in the link above.

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>Write once isn't a flaw, it's a feature. It means someone can't go back and (((revise))) a snapshot.
lol you fucking nigtard. you use cryptographic methods for that, not some guy's word about some disk that supposedely is the original one. even if you get back the right disk it can be modified. let's say the pits correspond to bits. i want to write the number representing how gay you are on the disk. it was originally a 1. but now i add 3000 more pits and it's 2^3001

Call me when we have tron disks.

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wot

The readers are expensive

those are some THICC discs

also nice pedophile logo

>Write once isn't a flaw, it's a feature. It means someone can't go back and (((revise))) a snapshot.
That's wrong.
You use encryption to defend against tampering, not write only media, because an attacker that has access to your disks can easily swap them with others of the same model.
Read only protects against a single thing, and that is accidental writes: you should already have backups to deal with those, tho.

epic dude have a reply xD