why do leftists have such a hard time convincing centrists?
how can we improve?
Why do leftists have such a hard time convincing centrists?
why do leftists have such a hard time convincing centrists?
maybe its that centrists are fucking stupid
well then how can you convince stupid people?
We need to
-stop using non-leftist labels as pejoratives and interchangeable
-recognize the necessity of the police
-recognize the problem of muslim conservatism
-reach out to right-identified workers without arrogance or aggression
-not punch nazis first
-be willing to compromise on social issues and israel
Not a psych major, but I hear that people get stubborn about accepting new information. The corporate media has raised several generations to love and defend their nation and the whole system and to loath the other guys, the pinko commies, socialists and anarchists. Growing up, I knew so very little about these terms. Year after year I would peel back the layers of deception thinking I understood it well enough only to discover there was more bullshit. "Centrists" are just poor sheeple that need our help.
Why did the allies reject stalin's offer to team up against the nazis?
Because the allies hated the soviets, it is why there was a dozen imperial armies invading it during the civil-war.
Yea well that only helps my point
Most centrist think their system is fine.
In case of cases they will side with the rightwing, so a major goal is to sow discontent between them, lest we will end up like in Chile.
Like throwing SJWs and alt right at each other's throat. Both spew the same idpol bullshit, but are at odds which id is better to pol with.
A centre vs right civil war would be ideal. This way we can becomebthe laughing third.
We need to start a mainstream anti-IdPol movement and focus exclusively on economic issues. Most normies are actually left leaning, even if they do not subscribe to actual leftist ideologies like socialism. A lot of them are actually socdems.
The only thing that made normies reject leftism were the cancerous SJWs.
Because centrism is solely about maintaining the status quo while leftists want to abolish the present state of things. We're fundamentally incompatible which is why you see centrists engaging with reactionaries while shitting themselves over milquetoast socdems or broken windows.
Question: Why should you? I mean, giving a person enough freedom to broaden up his views to conclusions he works himself to is better option than forcing upon him your ideologies. Now the bigger issue for me isn't what you brought up but how to let people know that there is most of the time a lot fake end-points of self development in philosophical and political sense. You know, you can be stuck with some ideology or prejudices and be completely comfortable because you reached them yourself but the real trick is to recognize the wall you created around yourself just yet with another ideology and move over it. That's in my opinion greater goal than convincing X group about Y topic and I don't know if that is achievable because people are not that stupid but confronting your own ideologies, habits, prejudices, whatever that is, is very painful thing to do and requires a lot of effort, even often strength to go through kind of inner void as you see everything you believed in falling down but I think it's something worth doing. Maybe I am naive but that's my problem.
Most Centrists are Porkies, we should spend more time convincing right-wingers than centrists.
I thought we were trying to convince people here.
I think a major issue is visualizing the divide between left and right as it is on the political spectrum, like they're so far apart. Even the most reactionary rightists tend to arrive there because they see something wrong with the way things are, they want things improved even if their way of going about it will just hurt them more (they don't know it yet)
Stop trying to convince people who are for the status quo and think everything is already great, start convincing the blue collar nationalists and low level reactionaries. At least they can acknowledge that the way things are going aren't good, and usually they just hate leftism because they know nothing about it.
the French-Polish alliance to be exact. the Eternal Pole at it again.
this is more or less the core issue: the grand majority of people are liberals who are blind to their ideology, which is why I think the Sniffman is a very fitting communist intellectual for this era. When we socialists start arguing for our views, we more often than not argue from our worldview which is fundamentally incompatible with the opposing liberal one. a classic example would be being forced into apologia for real-existing-socialism: for an idealist liberal, communism has killed 2104422451 million people, because for them political ideologies are actors with agency and states exist in a vacuum and are directly comparable with each other and extractable from their context (the material conditions in which they exist(ed)). nevermind that two semi-feudal countries emerged into global powers in a remarkably short time: they had serious famines, political violence&repression, habitual, crude bending of official truth to serve politics and gross betrayal of promises (which are all reasonable criticisms but misleading without context) - they lost in a geopolitical struggle to the country that had 50% of the world's industrial production at the end of the WWII. that, to them, means that communism has failed, regardless of all successes of socialist states worldwide, successess obviously downplayed or outright erased by anticommunist souces.
Oops I fucked it up.
Leftists have a hard time convincing anyone who isn't a leftist of anything generally, because
A. The stereotype of the sneering upper middle class college soyboi who will shit on you for reasons ranging from arbitrary purity/virtue signaling tests to not being as well read on theory as them is a real thing. These individuals also tend to low key despise and act with contempt towards the actual working class they claim to support and fight for.
B. In the US socialism has (or had maybe with how the DSA might be getting successful) extremely negative connotations and the term has been weaponized by Republicans and then eventually people on the right since the mid 80s. The animal Newt Gingrich is responsible almost entirely for this.
C. Leftism to this day still does not have a simple message/appeal that can quickly get people to vote for them. Ask the average leftist to explain their movement and convince you of their beliefs in brief and they will not be able to usually. This ties into
D. Leftism has an absurd and infamous entry requirement, due to the lack of a convincing, simple baseline message that can appeal to most voters. The average factory worker isn't going to read 40 books on theory and shit when they're struggling to feed their family and just want to relax and watch TV or play games after getting off their 10 hour shift. There is an internal culture that also ties into the people described in point A where if you are not well read in these things, you're looked down upon.
It all combines together to make most leftists seem obscure, distant, often unpleaant and pretensious instead of cool. When some poor fuck who is working for barely above minimum wage in a coffee shop sees some middle class university students sipping lattes and tapping away on their iPhone Xs while talking about how they're fighting the imperialist, exploitative capitalist system it provokes a visceral reaction. Yes, you might cry strawman and stereotype, but what I just described didn't get there if it was not partly true like most stereotypes.
To elaborate on this, I would further argue that in the field of emotional appeals in general, the left almost entirely lacks any.
Look at the white supremacists and neo nazis. What they say is "You're white. You matter more than all these ☘️people☘️ around you of different color." In a simple two sentence statement you have an emotional appeal to race, a statement that makes the listener feel *superior* to others, and the creation of a broad, nebulous enemy.
The left has not formulated anything that comes close to the emotionally manipulative cocktail I just described. "blah blah blah, unions, something workers solidarity and rights, we all are equal and fight together."
People care about how their personal lives can improve. They care about increasing their status and comfort. They care about not feeling threatened by x group.
hello Zig Forums, how's it going today?
That's pretty sad when you think about it, right? From my experience usually leftists at least know the theory, wrong or right doesn't matter because at least they put effort into reading SOME BOOKS. Not everybody has intellectual capacity to fully comprehend very hard philosophical, political or economical reading and I'm no exception, often it requires really deep thinking and even years of self-critique to kind of grasp some concepts, etc. But at least they/we read before we engage in political, sociological, economical or philosophical discourse. Right should do that too and they should except mein kampf, pagan NS books or libertarian's books read some of the left's work, just to gain perspective. Of course same things in reverse applies to leftists or even centrists in that matter. Read books, think, discuss. It's not that complicated if you admit you don't understand something and won't take offense when somebody is explaining to you something from "position above". He/she has the knowledge so I'm not bothered.
Because people often assume that left is some monolithic ideological block while it isn't at all. Especially when right (ancaps too) say that all leftists are just commie dirt and whatever. What will help? Oh no? Reading book? Educating yourself? Who would've thought that. Don't rely on spoonfeeding, you have to get the perspective yourself.
Very valid point this one and I guess this is one of left's weaknesses that they are not loud enough about their ideas. On the other side you have people who just tell you that immigrants are source of all your problems or jews or whatever and people because they don't have any other alternative just believe that because it's easy way. On the other hand, don't leave the individual out of it, still if he/she would want, he/she still could educate themselves even after 10 hour shift. I worked in similar job just to get by and have something to eat years ago so it's not coming from position of somebody who never worked in his entire life.
Hehe this meme again. Oh boi.
After all, even though your points might seem as mostly valid, the truth is that a lot people in west just have the opportunity and time to flirt with different political views but they don't. If there is easy way, people choose it. Why would you go through questioning your worldview when you have group you can easily associate with.
I addressed that in my follow up post about emotional appeals basically.
I ain't Zig Forums nerd.
As I said overall, what I described is how leftists are generally *perceived* not what they generally are. The stereotypes and strawmen I listed (while they do exist in unpleasant numbers) are more a preexisting concept people have of them.
Yes I know I didn't bothered to elaborate more on that because I think I said enough about that as well and I get that point very well, actually that's one point in your post which I think has really valid point.
I don't really have any answers on how it can be fixed for you guys tbh
It's kind of like how no matter how much the far right tries to disguise themselves and portray themselves as "guys we're totally not neo nazi skinheads look we wear suits and don't have tattoos!!!" that is what most people will see them as, no matter how much they try and change their optics. It's something ingrained by multiple decades of cultural and social opinion.
But on the other hand I completely get what is antifa f.e. in US doing. Right-wingers say that if antifa won't speak to them, then it's sign of weakness of their arguments or something but the fact is that arguing with those provocateurs is just utter waste of time which can strengthen the right's position but still I wouldn't say antifa is doing it wrong. I think it was said here before but I unironically admire people like Zizek. They have certain power of being accessible to "mainstream" centrists or right-wingers, and at the same time they have some good points that might be appealing and make people more curious about "left". I think it's not so dark as it seems. Left has intellectuals, artists, professors right down to people who do the dirty work on streets but still it seems like sometimes it's not enough. It's literally like the meme "who would win?", entire political spectrum vs. dogmatic one-liner.
Oh don't get me wrong, the far right talking points about antifa being "durr da real fascists" and so on are garbage.
It's as stupid as people who say "duuh the left can't meme" while vomiting up the same tired memes and pepes that became unfunny 2 years ago.
internet leftist are like this because they consider centrist to be like npc's so they feel like they can treat them like shit
Source: your ass
Top kek. Is that somewhere between Democrats and Republicans? Anyone who calls himself a "centrist" is just a liberal who knows nothing about politics but likes to pretend to be a skeptic.
im impressed that you have a jews dancing folder
lmfao ancaps are completely fucking deluded
protip friendo if everyone is greedy and selfish and only cares about their own self interest why the fuck would they marry anyone who attempted to force a prenup, let alone a marriage contract, on them
It's not a matter of convincing. In the last instance, as Marx said, "It is not the consciousness of men that determines their being, but, on the contrary, their social being that determines their consciousness." People's real life (and I don't mean to be utterly reductionist and not allow psychological factors, just that they're merely dependent) in the process of 'social production' as Marx put it, ultimately gives people their views. What's really important for our day and age is the development of what Foucault called biopower, 'the power to make live and let die'. Nowadays people are utterly materially dependent on the material conditions provided by the modern metropolis/globalized capitalism. Changes to these conditions will kill them. This explains the ambiguity of centrist ideology and praxis (their praxis is that of making themselves essentially non-existent in real situations) as well as the contortions of social democratic and even nominally anti-capitalist parties.
Thanks I think, I just think it's a funny alternative to actually anti semitic memes in these situations.
I imagine an Ancap marriage would basically turn out like one of those movies where both partners are trying to murder each other for ownership of the child prostitute farm.
The liberal projection is unreal. At least ancaps are being up front about the nature of marriage.
NICE IDEOLOGY YOU MIDDLE CLASS FAGGOTS
And it's pretty telling that you went with social issues (where centrists are actually right) and ignored economics. If you're view of """""""""leftism"""""""""""" is that men are scum and we should completely ignore economic equality then maybe just fuck right off back to reddit with the other liberals LARPing as leftists.
The majority of the working class are disaffected. That's not the same as being a centrist. This kind of shit is why thinking about politics as a spectrum is retarded. People with half right half left beliefs are in the same place as people whose beliefs are all compromises and people who just don't care.
Aren't you guys supposed to be pedants and shit?
You have to meet people where they are. If someone's in the center because they're burnt out and don't want to pick a side, then you can talk about how politics is bullshit meant to get that response and how it's not about what it should be - fixing people's problems. If someone's in the center because they're True Neutral, Fair And Balanced (i.e. a Centrist), then they're probably not worth the effort.
Obviously class matters too, but aren't we assuming that anyone we talk to is a worker? What's the point of approaching bourgeoisie?
fishing for class traitors
I'm sure there are bourgies who are no more keen on being a slave to capital than workers. that and bourgies who recognise capitalism's rapacious effect on culture, science and civilisation and would prefer to protect those to the detriment of their wealth and power.
I think this board is finally dead, which is pretty sad when only alternative is dumpster aka leftypol but i can't sage and report all by myself. Once this joke that "left = liberals" was cute but it's too repetitive now.