What's the verdict, user? Good introductory material?
What's the verdict, user? Good introductory material?
Gavin Gray
Michael Morales
Haven't read it but if Wolff wrote it it has to be good
Landon Clark
Kappa
I don't hold high hopes for a book written by Mr. "Different forms of societal socialisms." There's already loads of introductory material out there for free.
Joshua Rogers
What is even the beef with this statement? He's not talking about full communism. He's talking about a possible transitional phase out of capitalism. He even words it specifically so he's not saying that co-ops aren't capitalist (they still operate on law of value and the MCM cycle), but that they are "non-capitalist production relationships." Like, are you saying there aren't any socialists who argue for market socialism as a route to real socialism?
He's pretty clearly (even without context) giving markets the benefit of the doubt and describing what kind of scenario would preserve their existence. It sounds like he's responding to a "skeptic" who thinks muh free market will fix everything. When you're explaining socialism to normies you have to put it in terms they understand, which can easily come off as "revisionist."
Context on this quote? It sounds like he's just describing that different socialist projects took different forms.
Kevin Cruz
"Actual large-scale socialism would thus predominantly entail worker cooperative enterprises such as these…Different forms of societal socialisms will emerge: some with markets, private property and large corporations, and others with centralized and/or decentralized planning systems, socialized property, constraints on enterprise size etc. Debates, experiments and choices among them will likely characterize the multiple forms that socialism will take…
Previous economic systems likewise often displayed coexistences among more or less regulated private enterprises and state enterprises. In slave societies, for example, alongside the private masters of slaves working on plantations, states often owned and operated slave plantations. "
Wolff is totally fine with markets and limited private property "coexisting" since he sees them as being transhistorical (apparently ignoring palace economies). He does not want to abolish the law of value. Even as a transitory measure market socialism is totally bogus. "Co-operatives and trade unions are totally incapable of transforming the capitalist mode of production. This is really understood by Bernstein, though in a confused manner. For he refers to co-operatives and trade unions as a means of reducing the profit of the capitalists and thus enriching the workers. In this way, he renounces the struggle against the capitalist mode of production and attempts to direct the socialist movement to struggle against “capitalist distribution.”
Christopher Hernandez
So, exactly what I said here but change the tense from past to future.
He's describing different attempts to achieve socialism by transitioning different ways, which is what has happened in the past.
That's historically accurate. Capitalism didn't appear out of thin air in the 18th century. It developed within slave societies and feudalism first. Markets are not exclusive to capitalism. You'd have to believe the lolbert meme that capitalism is eternal to believe that markets are exclusive to capitalism.
You're gonna need to post better justification for that. "Markets aren't exclusive to capitalism" =/= "Markets are transhistorical." I posted a take from him on the nature of markets already (the video)
Proofs?
I don't think it's a good idea, but this seems like autistic gatekeeping to me. It would be like if I, an anarchist, said "Because state socialism has a record of regression to capitalism, state socialists aren't socialist, and their material is worthless."
Who are you quoting? Wolff is also very "Marxist" in the sense that he doesn't really advocate for a particular solution so much as analyze how the system works and where he thinks it will lead. His focus on co-ops is a way of showing people that a lot of the assumptions about capitalism are demonstrably wrong, like needing a boss to keep the workers in line.
Hudson Lewis
Why are some so intent on trashing papa Wolff? It's like they really want him to be something he isn't.
Jonathan Ortiz
Yes and the point of marxism is the abolish political economy/exchange value in general. "The value form of products therefore already contains in embryo the whole capitalist form of production, the antagonism between capitalists and wage-workers, the industrial reserve army, crises"-Anti-Dühring IV Distribution.
If Wolf thinks markets can coexist with socialism (he's vague on this front) because they're not unique to capitalism by definition he's keeping the law of value.
Only Stalinist believe in the state socialism meme. In the "Tax in Kind" Lenin says the nature of the transition from state-capitalism to socialism (the DoP) gives the USSR the right to call itself socialist. Hell ☘️Trotsky)) predicted the regression of the USSR into pure capitalism.
Rosa Luxemburg "Reform or Revolution"
By the same token you can uphold any socdem like Bernie cuz they make "socialism" less of a dirty word. Wolf and his group of DSA are just Edward Bernstein rebranded.
Adrian Butler
Because he is a Wolff in sheep's clothing ::DDD. Unlike me. Fugg any of these so-called socialists with concrete ideas about what to do. They're not telling you to wait for revolution to happen on its own and create full communism overnight, so they are doodoo revisionists and probably plants too. Armchairs and books, not organizing and agitating, ok?
Jace Thompson
for the peanut gallery
I'm not advocating market socialism.
I'm against marksoc, and so if Wolff from what I can tell. He has plenty of critiques for markets vs planning. Trying to "cancel" Wolff (lol, fucking liberal) over him allegedly being a market socialist is retarded.
Thinking markets and socialism can coexist in some context is not the same thing as wanting to preserve the law of value.
More like making an attempt to achieve socialism made their movement socialist. Being flawed doesn't make it worthless. You really are a liberal, god damn.
Cool, I thought you were just trying to quote-wank. Thanks for confirming it. Since you're so willing to grab quotes to "debunk" Wolff, why don't you diligently go find me where Wolff asserts that "co-operatives and trade unions are totally incapable of tranforming the capitalist mode of production," and that you're not just working from presuppositions you got from a book written way before Wolff's time.
That is a good thing you retard. If you haven't noticed, communism and "socialism" have become far more popular directly after Bernie's campaign in 2016. Bernie isn't going to bring the revolution but he can be useful to us, even as a useful idiot. Your purity bullshit is blinding you to even the most basic pragmatism. Zealots like you have as much place in a scientific movement as these dipshits >>>Zig Forums2905832