Myths about the Great Patriotic war

06/22/1941 started the Great Patriotic war.

Let's discuss the common anti-soviet and anti-communist myths about this war.

Myths like:
etc.

If you can russian this is useful source: wiki.istmat.info/

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Other urls found in this thread:

msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/pol/truthaboutkatyn.html
english.battlefield.ru/analytics/137-katyn-revised.html
katynmassakern.blogspot.com
mythcracker.wordpress.com/2010/07/14/katyn-49-signs-of-falsification-of-“closed-package-no-1”/
espressostalinist.com/the-real-stalin-series/katyn/

Is that way he took the long path to russia through denmark, holland, belguim and france?
I wrote about that here >>/netcom/1287

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>>>/netcom/1287

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the issue is that Fordist capitalism was different than today's neoliberal version, and was liveable. the boomers pissed that all away.

how's that related to the Great Patriotic war

might as well just post on /marx/ if this is what it's come to

...

I apologize wrong thread…

The Russian involvement in this was essentially a defensive move. The Germans were going to invade Poland with or without Russia's consent (let alone Poland's), and had they conquered the whole thing they would have had an easier land route to Russia as well as more resources and expendable personnel from a fully Reich-occupied Poland.

I'm going to go ahead and actually reply to these points on their own but op you should know these are all "No u" embodied. Not even Furr could get this deluded.
Not exactly but Stalin wasn't innocent. The best way to explain things is that they entered a mutual agreement knowing they'd both eventually fight each other. The two definitely weren't going to share influence over Eurasia, not by a long shot and both knew this. Pic related is the best possible explanation for their relationship.
They completely did, are we going to seriously bring up Katyn and the rest even though the first thread we had on the subject ended with Tankie denialists being laughed out of the board once the Gob Diary expert got posted, proving there was no way of faking the Soviet involvement in also killing thousands of Poles?
Not sure what the hell you're even suggesting here this one was totally true, you saying the agreement was different or something?
Who the fuck ever even suggested this, they were the direct enemy, the claim that is often made is that it would have been better– well easier for the British to surrender to the Nazi's and let them continue on their merry way, Hitler was too much of a western cocksucker to ever fully invade the West unless he absolutely had to.
No one but capitalists claim they were heroes, not like they fought against capitalism after the war.
Not true.
2 million death toll, or so it's claimed, the rape stuff probably never went over a thousand.

Defensive or not Stalin was always autistic about land-grabbing for "defense" like with Finland, and after the war, not an excuse.

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There isn't a more limited hangout than this right here. Marxists.org is such an unaccessible trash website, half the shit you click on in that site is some mundane who the fuck knows what from the 1920s holy fuck.

Honestly, why bother with denying Katyn. Those osadniks deserved it for their crimes in 1921 and their imperialist occupation of Western Belarus and Western Ukraine.

- Gabriel Kolko, The Politics of War: The World and United States Foreign Policy, 1943–1945. (1968) p. 105.

Even Furr himself admits that both the Soviets and Nazis executed Polish officers at different times for different reasons and cites Lazar Kaganovich:
msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/pol/truthaboutkatyn.html

retarded Russian liberals who don't know that Generalplan Ost was a thing.

I didn't and technically no one here has it's been close to a year now since then.
Oh my fucking god it'll be two years since this board has been created soon.
I mean was there anyone in Europe who didn't deserve it? I've heard Zig Forums point out Poland as being just as fascist at the time and of course Katyn was a massacre of officials making the whole thing pointless regardless of who killed them but even then Hitler was right about the Swiss too, they all needed to get fucked, it's just a shame Stalin nor Hitler managed to at last accelerate the process enough to take out the US and Britain. The ravenous destruction of modern Europe could have quite possibly led to another beneficial rebirth much like when Rome collapsed fully and the Byzantines went North.
Take it up with >>>/2ch/ then, everyone here's a burger, or someone outside of Russia even if they're close by like in Ukraine or Moldova. I've never once heard anyone outside of there besides Zig Forums ever call a bunch of autists who spent their time willingly going out to hunt a bunch of foot soldiers heroes.

Ok, but he was still right about Poland and Poland was fucked whether or not Russia got fucked in the process.

You're right but you should have elaborated more on your post.

It's simple. It straight up didn't happen. Soviet POWs went through SMERSH filtration but only those found actually guilty of collaboration were sent to prison… and the number of POWs who were sent to prison was a miniscule portion of the total POW numbers.


Furr admits that SOME officers were executed but only a few select criminals. All evidence points to the fact that the majority of the Polish Officers were, in fact, killed by the Germans after they captured the area where the Polish Officers were Interned. Yuri Muhin wrote an extensive book on the subject that I suggest you read.

Never heard of that, 2 million deaths of whom? Where?
Russian liberals and several Westerners who base this on the fact that Generalplan Ost was not finalized officially.

Katynskii Detektiv (1995) is no where to be found online, maybe on some book tracker or torrent/pdf site but I don't use those. So I'll have to address Moon Landing Denial Man's claims from others word of mouth.
So Hitler directly ordered, during wartime, in the highest of priority ordered his soldiers directly, not Gobbles or any other officials just his soldiers directly to find their mass graves again for propaganda?
Something which Gobbles was in charge of but he was never informed of?
It's been confirmed Katyn had officers both shot through the neck and head. I doubt execution ethics played a role outside of the Union.
And that's unfortunately all I could find. No other major claims were made by people online saying what he said.
Neonazi's who claim the end of the war absolutely devastated Germany and left 2-9 million dead. But I don't give a shit if it did. I'm just regurgitating their claim. Britain was guilty of doing similar things in WW1 and their whole fiasco is juicier anyways.

Discrediting his work on katyn by taking a jab at his statements about the Moon is a low blow.
He was perfectly aware of the situation. and they hid the evidence of their crime brilliantly.
"Unfortunately, German ammunition has been found in the graves at Katyn. It is essential that this incident remains top secret. If it were to come to the knowledge of the enemy the whole Katyn affair would have to be dropped."

Ethics? Sure. Protocol? Not so much. Soviet standard execution practice was to have a firing squad or more efficiently a machine gun.
The process of shooting them one by one in the back of the head was pointless. Moreover the bullets in the head were German and the actual ballistics determined that it couldn't be the standard pistol of the USSR at the time, the Tokarev TT, because the TT was far too powerful.
Ah, Ok then

Also why would Hitler order Goebbels about finding the graves when he was propaganda minister?

pg 332, April 17, 1943 - ''"The Katyn incident is developing into a gigantic political affair which may have wide repercussions. We are exploiting it in every manner possible. So long as ten to twelve thousand polish victims have sacrificed their lives anyway - probably not entirely without their fault, for they were the real instigators of this war - they might as well now serve to open the eyes of the peoples of Europe about Bolshevism.

In the evening, a Globe Reuter reporter reached us containing a declartion by the Polish Government-in-exile. This declaration changes the whole Katyn affair fundementally in that the Polish Government-in-exile now demands that the International Red Cross take part in the investigation. That suits us perfectly. I immediately contacted the Fuehrer, who gave me permission to send a telegram to the International Red Cross, requesting it to collaborate to the greatest extenet possible in identifying corpses. This telegram is signed by the Duke of Colburg and Gotha, whose name is well known in England and who has many family connections there. In that way, in my opinion, something has been started the reprecussions of which we simply can't imagine yet."''

If you note, the Red Cross members and others invited by the Germans to look at the bodies described how the bodies were 'sanitized' documents and personal possessions dated from 1941 or older were missing, despite the Soviet Investigation finding large numbers of documents such as letters, diary excerpts and other things dating to 1941 and some even longer

This is derailing so I'll just link you these 3 links, summarizing the basics of the points on Katyn.

english.battlefield.ru/analytics/137-katyn-revised.html

katynmassakern.blogspot.com

mythcracker.wordpress.com/2010/07/14/katyn-49-signs-of-falsification-of-“closed-package-no-1”/

We've been over this
Gobbles outright states he has no knowledge of German involvement right next to your quote.

I thought Soviet execution protocol was shooting to the back of the neck.
Whoever shot the soldiers at Katyn assuming they weren't German could have gotten German weapons more closely than they could have Soviet weapons.
As for your links one 404'd.
One's just a general blog dedicated to Katyn which well doesn't offer much help.
The list of 49 pieces of falsification just point out documents gone missing in the filing process or statements that the story was altered and a few inconsistencies.
Problem is every Katyn denialist says the same thing. And they're right Katyn has multiple inconsistencies in the official story. But there's no evidence the Nazi's did it and if the Soviets didn't either who did?
Best case scenario it was a random killing with no national connection pinned on the Soviets by Americans and Poles post ww2 which Gorbachev went with.

Yes, he has no knowledge of the bullets found in the graves… which is to be expected considering that he had little involvement in what would have been done by soldiers or SS under the command of an officer who would not be answering or obliged to tell Goebbels this.
for singular executions? maybe but the Katyn incident is a MASS Grave, with people shot at roughly the same time, dumped and buried. Hell if you look at Babiy Yar and how it was done or any other Mass Grave in recent history.
But why and how? The USSR or whoever somehow predicted this coming to light and decided to shift the blame to the Germans when by all accounts it was essentially a secret burial and claimed to have been done in 1940, before the war started in the East (despite corpse autopsies and possessions indicating execution after 1940 when the Nazis controlled the area.
Wayback archive is your friend
Except that its more than just a few. many documents are outright hoaxes.
The Nazis controlled the territory during the period of time the Polish Officers died. Several Witnesses who were under the occupation and worked as Osterbaiters also corroborated a story of German trucks entering the woods at night, and soldiers coming back with blood on their clothes… despite being behind the front line.

Espressostalin may be biased but they do post good citations. Both evidence and opinion by correspondents and other people of stature thought the Germans were full of shit. The anti-soviet position only began with the Cold War, as did other myths like the 2 million raped Germans.
espressostalinist.com/the-real-stalin-series/katyn/

Finally the USSR just didn't have a motive, or if it did, the motive was nothing compared to the motive to execute Waffen SS officers.
Yet the USSR only executed German Officers after the war… for war-crimes.

The same can be said for the Soviets couldn't it? Even then wouldn't it just be one large cluster fuck for the Nazi's to find one of their old graves again and openly reveal it?
Katyn was a mass grave but not confirmed to be a mass execution in one location, many kills were done outside and it's been confirmed to be a mass grave composed of multiple periodic killings of predominantly bourgeoisie peoples.
Not sure what you mean by why when the explanation I put forth was that the Soviet involvement was during peacetime when they had access to German supplies.
Yes, figure of speech.
Soviet soldiers were still allowed in Nazi occupied territory and especially in a large area.
There's no doubt the Nazi's also killed many people in Poland. Most likely added onto the grave in later years but by how much who knows.
You're kidding right?
The first article which I didn't think of reviewing before but finally did makes a few assumptions but mostly says the same the 49 list did.
The 2nd one makes a lot accusations without foundation
During peace time where the Nazi's were equally hesitant of being exposed?
Three different accounts which were only the views of a few killings done in different areas without citation of date.
Johansen's report simply states multiple bodies were pinned on the Soviets not that a lot of them were done by the Soviets.
I doubt 60 Jewish prisoners could have made enough false documents for 10000 bodies. A few hundred max which was acceptable to throw in for the Nazi's trying to use Katyn as leverage against the USSR out of the gullible idea that the west would help them if they did.
By this point I doubt I could convince you that Katyn was majority done by the Soviets and I doubt you can convince me it was all the Nazi's. There's not much point in keeping this argument going for a few days at least it's too tiring to just keep countering each other in a minimalistic fashion.

It would be more likely for them to do so, since they were beginning to lose the war and international support. Don't forget that for a long time the Germans were supported against the USSR by many people, even in allied countries like the USA.
Autopsies show death being at relatively the same time.
True, but none of them date back to any period of time when the USSR controlled the area. Moreover the area they were buried was a place where Soviet Pioneers would visit fairly prior to the war, it was a public area and it makes no sense to kill them there.
But that's the point, WHY would hey execute the Poles, especially with German ammunition in 1940, when the USSR was expecting a defensive war? There is no real motivation to execute them besides being Polish fascistic scum, but that reason fails because even SS officers were interned as POWs and not touched.
Exposed of what? Smolensk was in Soviet hands the Nazis couldn't be blamed if they wanted to.
The Germans didn't unearth 10,000 people and documents were missing from many corpses
You're right to doubt that because it doesn't make feasible sense
I didn't say that, I admit that it is likely the USSR executed a few officers, but most likely for a specific reason.
I honestly thought we were having a perfectly friendly conversation, but if it's so tiring, then I bid you adieu.

Look I'm hard at
these couple of days I can't spend time arguing like this consistently every morning when I need to speed up my schedule the most, if you want I'll bump the thread on Sunday when I'm

What's with the formatting?
Also I think the conversation has already expended itself, I just didn't think it was that unpleasant.

Good book on the subject

This is also good book. But unfortunately only in russian. "Velikaya obolgannaya voyna" by Igor Pyhalov

Preemptive green text before some one goes
It wasn't unpleasant I just had to be blunt about it not being worth my time but work ended up cucking me anyway and now I have a two day early vacation so everything was pointless in the end.

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Boards all over Zig Forums are 404ing random threads. Here's a revival post for this one,

Woah a nazbol with actual good research. That's new.