Could they be considered two sides of the same coin?
Lumpenproles: thieves and cheats, general scum
Aiden Wilson
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David Evans
Lumpenproles can be allies though.
Luke Smith
Jonathan Lee
Stellar materialist analysis, faggot.
Jackson Baker
If you actually read M and E's materialist analysis of the lumpenproletariat you might see why they did think these two groups were two sides of the same coin.
Aiden Hall
Please explain it to me.
James Evans
So can bourgeoisie.
Lumpenproles and petit bourgeoisie are ideologically unstable though while bourgeoisie are almost always not allies
Aiden Price
Basically, the lumpenproletariat constitute a social class that lives without working, which sets them apart from the proletariat even if they are both poor and have no ownership over the means of production.
marxists.org
Lumpen are generally constituted of that class of people who are essentially "unemployable" in the parlance of bourgeois economists–they are unsuccessful at getting and keeping jobs even at the height of economic booms. I think unlike the unemployed proletarian, these people generally aren't looking to work or at least they are not looking to engage in legitimate work.
Although they are numerous and bourgeois economists seek to downplay their numbers and existence, they are nonetheless typically a very small portion of the population when compared against the teaming masses of proletarians.
If you've ever been around true lumpens basically their mindset is that there's always a new scam, con, deal or get-rich-quick scheme around the corner that will set them up nicely with little to no effort. They will talk sweet to you one moment tell you about how you're the greatest person they know, you're their best friend etc. and screw you the next if they think it will make them an extra buck.
One comrade here truly said that their mindset is like that of the petit-bourgeoisie minus the money.
Robert Johnson
Lumpen are generally constituted of that class of people who are essentially "unemployable" in the parlance of bourgeois economists–they are unsuccessful at getting and keeping jobs even at the height of economic booms.
Are what we know as NEETs lumpen? they sure sound like it.
t. neet
Jack Powell
It depends. I was a NEET for about a year but I was looking to get a job but couldn't find one, nor could I afford to go back to school. If you want to have a job eventually then I would say that your a discouraged or potential worker who will probably inevitably find a way into the labor force. Those NEETs who don't want jobs and essentially have plans to live off friends, parents and/or the government indefinitely are basically lumpen. Some people use lumpen as a byword for "criminal" which isn't always the case.
Hikikomori are a more interesting phenomenon as it appears many of them are simply so alienated by capitalism that they've developed mental illnesses that prevent them from obtaining normal jobs or having normal social lives. I've heard that in Japan many Hikis and NEETs physically abuse their working parents or retired parents drawing stipends in order to continue living their lifestyles.
However, I have to say that a rich kid who does nothing isn't a NEET but a member of the bourgeoisie. His parents may own companies or major stock-portfolios but he stands to inherit them and frequently receive massive incomes known as Trust Funds for essentially doing nothing.
I honestly don't look upon the working second-generation bourgeois as being any better. Yes, they want to show the world their not layabouts but they typically just get meme degrees, meme jobs, start meme companies/charities and have meme hobbies.
Josiah Wood
What if a lumpenprole sees the revolution as a get rich quick scheme?
Daniel James
Dominic Young
Robert Barnes
Revolutions are arduous journeys, I think someone who has that mindset will become bored and leave the ranks of the revolutionaries as soon as a revolution isn't immediately forthcoming or they will expect some kind of monetary gain beyond what proles see in revolution that will lead to them doing disservice to the revolution.
Lumpen will steal from anybody but their main victims are workers the easiest marks being more numerous and the police care much less about their security and property. Besides, not all lumpens are thieves but maybe other types of criminals or not even criminals at all. NEETs are a type of Lumpen who typically break few laws and survive in more or less legal ways.
Brayden Cruz
That easy to say when you don’t actually have to deal with them.
Sebastian Evans
Is organized crime lumpen?
Jayden Perez
People who are looking for work or want to work are not NEETs. You’re just unemployed, even porky recognizes you as such.
I don’t think there was such a thing as NEETs in Marx’s time since parents did not let children stay with them into adulthood and there was no such thing as disability or other forms of welfare. I’ve spent a lot of time on /v/ which is NEET central. They’re not revolutionary but their not predatory leeches like gang members or prostitutes are.
Robert Parker
Yes
Carter Hughes
I’m surprised beggars and organ grinders are included. An organ grinder seems like a petite bourgeois with just one employee, himself, while beggars are usually homeless people that are absolutely not their by choice. Did those two thing involve more duplicity back in the day.
Dominic Diaz
What do you think about a situation where you're looking for work but maybe not as hard as you should be because you're discouraged? Honestly, I think thats what happened to me when I was unemployed, I could have worked harder at putting in applications but I was depressed and nothing seemed to come of it anyways. For probably about six months or so I just quit trying.
Maybe I'm overrating the importance of effort anyways, since when I finally did get a job it was because my gf had a good relationship with the manager at that company.
Ryan Nelson
I really don’t think you were a NEET or a lumpen. Like I said spent some time on /v/ around true NEETs, they wouldn’t take any job that didn’t pay really well and was easy. Their identity is wrapped around consumerism but I see other mid aged female NEETs that don’t keep their house clean.
Charles Carter
I am 100% gay
Ryder Williams
I see all lumpenproles as potential comrades.
NEETs? They are perfectly in line with the idea of abolishing work entirely for everyone at some point in the future, and this is in line with socialists reducing working hours in the past.
Sex workers? I find it to be exploitative under capitalism, but I've known a small handful with radical views (there was once an anfem sex worker who posted here, don't know if she's still active) so this is obviously not a lost cause as a group of people. It does raise the question as to whether sex work would exist under full communism.
Hobos & vagrants? These types of people were quite active in the IWW during its height, and have had a lot of influence on its lingo/culture to this day.
General criminals, gangsters, mafiosos, etc. ?Probably the most hopeless out of any of them, but I've met one who was a post-left anarchist type interested in illegalism.
Marx & Engels were right to be skeptical of this group, but I don't think they're tendency is exclusively or even primarily reactionary
Cooper Peterson
So you mean the vast majority of proles, especially in America? You have a naive view of the proletariat.
Jaxon Jackson
Jeremiah Taylor
Mafia bosses are literally the lumpenbourgeoisie.
Christopher Cox
Yes, you've described what the lumpenproletariat is. But you haven't explained how it qualifies as "the other side of the same coin" it shares with the bourgeoisie. They have nothing in common socially or economically — and no, muggings and surplus extraction are not just the same type of "theft".