There are a lot of angry discussions in different threads. What should be the Left approach to it?
Quite simply, the general Enlightenment idea: the State should be banished from one's bed, seems to be a sensible position. Unless, of course, it affects other people, which immediately means that the state may do what the society requires when it comes to pregnancy, birth and childrearing.
LGBT does not at all matches this position. It makes it into an incredibly nuanced, stratified and far-fetching agenda, industry and identity that segregates itself from society and between itself, in line with identity politics.
There is not a shed of redeeming quality in it, and grim negatives for everyone, including the people adopting this identity, since, among other things, identity politics always nurtures its opposition in society, pretty much in a way of self-fulfilling prophecy. The most prominent example in America is the white supremacy that would have never been so entrenched without it.
Speaking of LGBT, case in point is Russia, and people actually forget that it, for some reason, was already more tolerant than the West, despite all its democracy, freedom and capitalism, which was demonstrated worldwide by TATU performance in 2003's Eurovision: youtube.com/watch?v=_4fGaXdN_mA Once LGBT became the spearhead of American domestic and foreign politics and culture, antagonism to non-traditional sex immediately peaked in Russia and many countries unaligned with the US.
Are you saying white nationalism is caused by faggots?
Also what is that performance meant to prove? I skimmed though it but its just two girls singing.
Connor Allen
The Left should oppose discrimination of any kind insofar as it arbitrarily marginalizes sections of the proletariat, but pushing "acceptance" is a self defeating waste of time and really has nothing to do with the revolutionary project.
Logan Garcia
No, I was talking about affirmative action and endorsement of minority ethnic nationalism here, not sexual preferences.
In 2003, Russia sent TATU group to Eurovision who styled themselves as lesbians. They were nearly banned from broadcast for obscenity, while having no troubles in Russia. news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/2736367.stm
Owen Bell
Yes but in russia people say that gays should burn on tv (also feme lesbians are cute)
The artist is not gay (just a jewish dancer) And dressing drag is not consider LGBT so… (and still being gay in russsia sucks)
Brayden Myers
The gay identity was manufactured in order to expose and separate homosexuals from the rest of the population. It directly follows from the practice in which considered homosexuality an illness to be quarantined and controlled.
Socialists should not involve themselves with sexpol beyond the liberation of women as workers, and the matters particular to women that relate directly to the labor struggle (for example, the role of women as housewives doing unpaid labor). Sexpol is the bane of anti-capitalism.
Levi Cox
this
Carter Allen
As opposed to the preceding theocratic mentality which advocates that any two men caught buggering each other are evil and should be exterminated. The creation of "the gay identity" therefore followed separation of those with a preference for same sex congress from those inclined to reproductive sex.
Agreed.
Jordan Young
someone is paying her bills. someone is paying the mortgage on the house she lives in. someone is paying for all the food she eats and prepares. she's not "unpaid", she's compensated with everything she could ever need in exchange for cleaning and cooking. inb4 muh slavery. she can leave if she wants, and take half of her "slavers" stuff
Hunter Stewart
Jesus christ dude. This doesn't prove that it's fun to be gay in russia. Are you even aware of the "gay propaganda" law they passed a few years back, that basically equates being gay to some kind of sick aberration equal to paedophilia? Fuck off.
Ayden Robinson
Sage and report
Liam Walker
incels please go
Colton Gutierrez
...
Gavin Jones
All you're teaching me is that I should hate russia more. I'm not going to suddenly turn straight.
Joshua Stewart
they are compensated with everything theycould ever need in exchange for doing some staff (that the boss could easily do) they also can leave if they want with money from there "slaver" >>>/incel/
Jonathan Foster
Shit comparison. Workers can't choose not to work - they would starve. Women can choose not to be housewives; they are as a group fully integrated into the labour market. They can also choose not to have children, because abortion and contraceptives are legal, and so on. Second wave feminism happened already, they won.
Elijah Howard
True, in like one country ,but the social pressure is imposible to not affect them
Joshua Martin
I would love to see the owner of a factory single-handedly assemble millons of computers. I would love to see the owner of a pharmacutical company single-handedly develop, test, manufacture, and distribute new drugs. Listen to yourself. The funny thing is, house work is something people do voluntarily, after coming home from work. You're highlighting the fact that housewives are compensated for a job most people are not compensated for. But I don't agree with that/your logic. A housewife is not any more or less oppressed than any other worker. And that was my entire point. You singled-out housewives as workers who are facing injustice and I'm arguing that's bizarre logic, since she's arguably better compensated for her labor than half of the working people in this country. Really? I can take half of my company's value and demand a paycheck for the rest of my life if I quit? Why didn't I know about this earlier??
Jose Anderson
…not to mention the innate biological drive to reproduce
Samuel Evans
"Social pressures" reeks too much of culture war to me, a waste of time if ever there was one. It's nebulous, and can be claimed to be present without having to point to any example of it in concreto. Plus, you also have things like , which will skew outcomes. You can't just say, difference in outcome therefore social pressures therefore patriarchy, when there are very deep biological differences. How do you even separate the two? Equal before the law, and no overt discrimination in society are about all you can practicably demand.
First i am a m-l bro i know the claim is shit. True that’s why both sexes should help in the house
That’s wrong your boss can not affect your life outside the job(except if he lowers your pay) but a man that pays a women pretty much controls her . He becomes her boss. Yes but if tomorrow your boss fires you, you will have a hard time finding a job and whine Not always you virgin and like the workers you can make a deal before No you don’t cum in your bosses cunt Again not always tbh the porky has to pay pensions for the rest of your old life in most countries
A housewife has greater leverage over her husband than an employee does over his boss. Not only can the housewife threaten divorce, she can simply get a job and free herself from her "oppressive, controlling" husband. She's not compelled to stay in her housewife position by contract. She can "breach" her non-existent labor contract any time for any reason. Her husband can't abuse her for it, or he'll go to prison, so I don't really know what you mean by he controlls her. She controlls him. The only thing he provides is money, and she can get that on her own if she wants. Shes not more oppressed than a regular laborer. In many ways, she has much more flexibility in her labor and options than someone working an assembly line.
Adam Miller
On the contrary, the State should be our bed.
SYNDICALIZE ALL GENDERS
NATIONALIZE ALL SEX
SEXUAL COMMUNISM NOW !
Jeremiah Rivera
What if the man wants her to stay in the house ? House wifes just should not exist
Zachary Baker
Why is this even considered a problem that needs addressing? There is social pressure not to be an alcoholic. There is social pressure to wash yourself regularly. Is it wrong that we, as a group, disapprove of others being smelly drunks? Is it also wrong that we, as a group, would like to perpetuate our species?
Kevin Wilson
Then she can choose to either stay in the house or figure out other living arrangements. I can't imagine being able to love someone who wants to trap you in your house like rapunzel, and if you're not in love with someone, you shouldn't be married. What you're describing is a hypotheticak, very toxic and controlling relationship that a woman would be best off separating herself from. If a wife wants to be a housewife and her husband treats her with respect, what's the issue?
Joshua Harris
This basically, which is why feminism is pretty much a non-issue for socialists today (aside from rejecting reactionary ideology as stupid). Still, it is an example of something that would be relevant to the socialist cause, as opposed to something like using the correct pronouns or titles, or going apeshit whenever a woman accuses a man of sexual harassment on bogus charges or charges that are far in excess of what actually happened. The new feminism is either liberal feminism or a disease vector that was introduced to leftism to derail and distract. (For what it's worth I consider the abortion issue to be one of those disease vectors, it was quite clearly intended for eugenicist reasons, and there is no reason why most women can't keep their cunts shut if they don't want babies. I don't think abortion should be illegal and if it is to be done it ought to be done right and be available cheaply, but if rape were eliminated and women have agency then what is the choice argument exactly? Women make their choice when they agree to fuck. The logic applied to the abortion issue only works when coercive pressure is applied to control population growth and determine which women, essentially, are allowed to reproduce. The behavior of many pro-choice activists often betrays this intention. Again, I don't believe legal abortion is a horrible sin, but I am under no delusion about why the issue is pushed, and why it is deliberately put at the forefront of modern feminism.)
It's almost like countries can be less tolerant during certain time periods….
Also TaTu was a marketing gimmick. Both women say they are straight as far as I know . They weren't lovers. The whole group was put together by a man. They split up from the manager because he was 'too busy thinking up scandals'. One of them openly made homophobic comments about how she wouldn't accept a gay son, just in 2014-saying that God made men to be men. She seems more accepting of lesbians, oddly? It's possible her views have gotten more conservative over time with the country,though. She does pull the 'I have gay friends ,though' argument. The other member ,Lena, still performs for LGBT,and seems overall more supportive,accepting. They are both Christ-tards but one talks about God's love for everyone,so *shrugs*
I just don't think that accepting a band where two young conventionally attractive girls make out is the same as gay acceptance. Mainstream hetero society has always kind of had a flirting relationship with young conventionally attractive lesbians as titillating performance. Using TaTu as an example of Russian acceptance of homosexuality is kinda laughable, though I don't want to undermine the positive influence on gay young people the group may have had.
