Anarchists after the Revolution

This. Anarchists should be able to form collective enterprises that work in the way they want.

And Marked Socialism is the perfect framework for that.

In fact, in Tito's Yugoslavia, companies with 10-30 employees where direct democratic, which is very much to the liking to anarchists I guess - at least those who I've spoken to (Anarcho-Syndicalists) like Yugoslavia a lot. From 30-70 employees, the companies could decide whether they want to stay direct democratic or whether to form elected workers councils.

For those who disagree: What do you think communism will look like and what form of socialism is closer to that goal - that of Yugoslavia or that of other socialist countries? Whether or not it being a marked economy, there should be a lot of autonomy for economic entities thus that "Each can live as he sees fit".

State Socialists have always killed Anarchists the day after the revolution. Fuck you backstabbing fucks.

Fuck off, state socialists have only gone after anarchists when they turned against them first or did some very retarded shit.

Always hilarious seeing anarkiddies parrot this braindead meme when not a single one of them have any knowledge of history beyond what they learned in high school.

Honestly if you guys keep deifying Makhno you should really just drop the 'anarchist' title altogether and admit your real social program is just a system of organized banditry.

I utilise the state to the extent it suits my interests, but I have no doubts that it is the root of institutional violence.

And you accuse us of parroting braindead memes?

The only thing you contribute to this board is making baseless accusations towards anarchists, while deifying stalin yourself. I've seen your posting habits before. You're nothing more but a pseud who calls anarchists liberals and takes it upon himself to bitch and offer invalid criticism. It's literally "hurr durr anarchists git organised so that must mean they're not anargists cuz they made a state"

The USSR did backstab the anarchists in Catalonia and the Ukraine, that is a proven historical fact.

However, any criticism labeled at your GLORIOUS SOVIET UNION is often dismissed by you poisoning the well. Never mind the fact that Stalin funded liberal bourgeoise republicans to crush the popular anarchist revolution, THAT'S JUST LIBERAL/ ⛏️rotskyIST PROPAGANDA, WHY DO ANARGISTS HAVE A VICTIM COMPLEX?

Or how about the fact that the bolsheviks utilised liberal bourgeois propaganda to slander anarchists as nothing more but a bunch of drunkards, while slandering them as pogromists?

At least with some members on this board they can take the time to self crit. Were the anarchists in Catalonia and Ukraine perfect? No.vI'm not some ideals thinking that the revolution won't be without its fuck ups.. They certainly had their flaws, but no matter how much evidence is lobbed at you (and it has been done before, and you remained unsurprisingly silent about it) you see fit to antagonise every single member of this board and dismiss any valid criticism and just bitch about anarchists and others who dare criticise ML praxis/ revolutions.

You literally contribute fucking nothing other than insults and straw man. You're as useless on tits on a bull and I'm surprised no one has fucking banned you due to your shit-tier criticism.

In the mean time, you can actually do yourself a favour and fucking read some articles and watch some vids.

marxist.com/spanish-revolution-betrayed.htm

spartacus-educational.com/SPrussia.htm

youtube.com/watch?v=M6pysEKlg0Q

nestormakhno.info/english/makfaq/h_6_8.htm

theanarchistlibrary.org/library/sam-dolgoff-editor-the-anarchist-collectives

Same goes for you too.

We do actually criticize the Stalin period, for example there was a cult of personality pushed by part of the party(That Stalin tried to combat). However doing so publicly often ends up reinforcing the already cold war/Nazi propaganda.

What you anarchists have to understand is that in all successful revolutions you did, had Marxist support or were in some non-valuable rural areas and they only exist because its more cost effective for the government.
How long do you think Makhno would last neighboring the Tsar?
The Soviet Union was the only revolutionary state to even bother imperialism and that's a fact.

As the French said: Bakunin is a treasure on the first day of a revolution, but on the second day, he should be shot.

That's a funny way of saying "let's ignore criticism and dismiss it as propaganda". Owning up to your fuck ups actually shows you've got a fucking spine, and you're willing to cop criticism on the chin and move forward as a movement.

We don't live in the 1980's the soviet union has fallen, and a new socialism has to come from that. Advocate for the new, go the way of Cockshott for all I care, but this whole "every criticism of the USSR enforces cold war propaganda" is bullshit. You may as well apply the same logic to anarchists and label them as a disorganised drunken bunch, but you would be parroting bourgeois propaganda from the early 20th century.

Does anarchism have its dipshits? Absolutely, no leftist is without it but this whole ML glass jaw chauvinism spewing propaganda is a load of fucking bull and you know it.

Including the fact that had it not been for the black army, the whites would be marching into St. Petersburg. The blacks were organised and they had the means to fight off the white army against imperialism.

libcom.org/files/NestorMakhnoAnarchysCossack.pdf
libcom.org/files/Kontrrazvedka - The Story of the Makhnovist Intelligence Service - V. Azarov.pdf

However, the effectiveness of the black army strategies today is questionable given our material conditions and our current political climate. Nonetheless, to say that anarchists don't have an answer against imperialism is not just a straight up fucking lie, but just peak tank chauvinism and its finest.

I guess I should start saying ML praxis fails every time, considering that the USSR succumbed to imperialism at the end, that is before they became a bunch of revisionists, or that Sankara was overthrown in a coup, and that Cuba has had to recognise private property to prevent itself from succumbing further to the trade embargoes placed on it, but you'd probably accuse me of idealism.

Point of the matter is, you're in no position to criticise praxis if you
1) don't contextualise it
2) Do nothing but spout baseless accusation and criticism
3) Can't take a while to self crit yourself, something that I see MLs succumb a lot to. Anarchists are just as guilty, and I'll be damned if I didn't roll my eyes at every time I hear one of them call Stalin a communist, but at least I and a few others can point it out and criticise other forms of anarchism, including but not limited to egoism or anarchs-nihilism.

*call Stalin a *fascist
I don’t know if it was a word filter but you get my point.

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And that’s the kind of chauvinism what I’m talking about.

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That is not what I'm saying. I do think viewing anything critically is the way to understand it.
What I'm saying is that most people today are conditioned to think "muh 100 million" "muh freeze peach" "muh gulag extermination camps" etc. without ever looking at the evidence and without understanding the material conditions many of the events took place in.
Thus it is very important to get a grasp of history and the conditions under which certain events happened.

Ironic how MLs are branded traitors by anarchists in Spain for caring more about the fate of the people than a 3 year economic experiment.

Dude, anarchists shot workers representatives BEFORE October revolution. Workers did not choose their path for a reason.

Some anarchists were fine, forget the guys' name who Lenin approved his funeral (that was already 1920s) and named a Moscow train station after him.

They literally gave their resources to liberal bourgeoise republicans. They’re a factor which lead to their downfall.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Days

Spare me the downplaying bullshit.

You mean the anarchists who were later shot and imprisoned?

theanarchistlibrary.org/library/emma-goldman-alexander-berkman-bolsheviks-shooting-anarchists

And you imply that anarchists such as myself don’t understand this? I can understand why they fucked up where they did, but the point still stands: they fucked up.

Are the USSR’s fuck ups as GRANDIOSE as Cold War propaganda espouses? No. Yes, the case can be made that the USSR mismanaged grain during the holodomor, and this was later remedied. But the impression I get is that this fuck up should be excused. Yes, we can understand that Kulaks and poor weather conditions played a factor into the deaths of thousands, but the fact still remains, the INITIAL handling of grain during the holodomor was poorly managed.

Are you telling me that sort of criticism warrant a dismissal of it being “Cold War propaganda”?

Are you trying to play the victim card?

Could you have a bit more understanding about history of October revolution, please? Can you elaborate, among what social class in petrograd, anarchism were popular? Could you tell me their attitude towards Workers' control of factories? Could you tell me in which region, anarchists actually made it? These are ABC questions.

Even Stalin admitted that.

Shifting the goal posts doesn’t change the fact that bolsheviks persecuted anarchists.

It’s funny how you accuse me of not reading my history but you have little to no knowledge of the anarchists in the Russian revolution, which is ironic considering it was an anarchist which blew open the gates to the tsar.

So what any criticism from an anarchist is automatically invalid but from other leninists it’s A OK?

Fuck me, the arrogance of you lot is sickening.

Not everyone on this thread is a Stalinist, even Mao was VERY critical towards Stalin's strategy in rural area. Even Stalin himself quickly realized he fell into the trap of bureaucraric socialism.

I know the title of this thread is provocative but how would anarchists fight when capitalists try to come back? Russian workers chose Bolsheviks, not anarchists because of this.

What? I was saying that we don't pretend they didn't fuck up.

Yeah
Literally every successful revolution

Not neglecting anarchists contribution, that is a historical fact.

Just pointing out, speaking of ironic, Anarchists used STATE power to repress workers. Yeah Bolsheviks did it as well, but it's just more ironic when anarchists did it.

Yeah because if you were an anarchist most of the time they chucked you in jail or had you shot.

But I guess we should forget about the free territory whose army, consisting mostly of peasants and farmers were able to drive back the white army. Again, you downplaying the achievements of anarchists doesn’t do you any credibility.

Read and watch the vids and articles in these posts

Define state. This is where the semantics between marxists and anarchists begin.

Factory Committees and workers' control in Petrograd in 1917
Working State and workers goverment, by Churakov

Writing this according to my memory, title could be wrong, published on Russian journal called "alternative", these are some more serious field study, I just trust them more than a youtube vid.

Anyway, I feel this discussion is getting unproductive, I naturally consider anarchism criticism as "contradictions between the people" not "contradiction between people and enemy". Id you say the title of thread is retarded, I agree. Peace out.

Labor camps and political prisons are a form of state power and they definitely had those in Catalonia.

To that I can agree.

The anarchists had almost no popular support outside Ukraine. What were they gonna do without it, lmao.

a bit more sources if you read Russian:

attitudes of anarchists around May 1917
Октябрьская революция и фабзавкомы,
Москва,1927, 2 том, стр. 182.

Anarchists workers' collective actions, and why some Bolsheviks and Mensheviks disagreed, they did not want to scare away the experts:
Б. Шабалин " От Февраля к Октябрю" в "Бастионы
револю-ции", том 1, Ленинград, 1967, стр.289-90.

There was a major vote on Economical policies in May 1917, Lenin got 297, Menshviks got 85, anarchists got 45. That was the moment I mentioned "Russian workers made the chose", read a bit for more detailed reasons.
Октябрьская революция и фабзавкомы, том 1,
стр. 107.

Anarchists were very popular especially in poor ghetto areas, mostly due to the vast collapse of Russia industry, capitalists were abandoning the ship.

Октябрьское вооруженное восстание в
Петрограде, стр. 52.

the anarchists vs orgnized workers fight were partially set up by Russian capitalists who fled the big cities, they thought they could took advantages of it.
Рабочий контроль и национализация, стр.
345-7.

The ironic historical facts of anarchists abused state power:
См. подробнее: Шубин А.В. Махно и махновское
движение. М., 1998. С.С. 110—121. Собранные в книге факты говорят
сами за себя, хотя автор даёт им свою трактовку в духе защиты
исторической практики анархизма.

again, this is too big topic to nail with one post. I just shared some lights of what I read and what I think, paving a path for ppl who are more interested in this topic.

Stop being autistic and counter-revolutionary and you won’t get the gulag, anarchkiddie!

Judge not that ye be not judge.

Let each plead their case honestly.

Clearly the solution is a peaceful transition with a social-democratic period

The CNT was an over-all hodge-podge of aimlessness. They collectivized it, but without organization and it never got to run its course, which in the experience of The Ukrainian Free State ended badly. The (slight) productive rise is a pointless argument since that's the same argument used by liberals to justify the Kerensky Government.

Some Catalan Anarchists openly expressed their Fascist sympathies. After the war, Abad de Santillan had praise for Jose Antonio Primo de Rivera, founder of the Fascist Falange Espanola:

“Despite the difference which separated us, we can understand this “spiritual kinship” with Jose Antonio, who after all was a fighter and a patriot in search of solutions for his country�Spaniards of his stature, patriots such as he are not dangerous. They are not the enemy. As for changing the destiny of Spain, there had been, before July, 1936, diverse attempts to align with us. If an accord had been tactically feasible, it would have been according to the desires of his father, Primo de Rivera (dictator of Spain under the monarchy).” (Abad de Santillan, Porque Perdimos la Guerra, as quoted in Landis, pg 312.)

After the war, FAIist Abad de Santillan confessed:

“If all the leaders of the Libertarian (anarchist) organizations had ever seriously resolved to send all their armament, their war material and their best men to the front–the war would easily have been over in a few months… We can no longer conceal the fact that while, at the front itself, we had by 30,000 rifles (and perhaps as many as 24 batteries, 200 heavy guns), in the rear, in the power of the organizations, we had an additional 60,000 rifles with more ammunition than was ever in the proximity of the enemy.” (Abad de Santillan, Porque Perdimos la Guerra, Buenos Aires, 1940, pp. 67-8; quoted in Landis, pg 321.)

And guess where most of that shit came from… the USSR!

The CNT had expected aid from France and Britain, it received none.

"As week succeeded week, it became obvious that the governments of Britain and France were prepared to give nothing to the Spanish people except advice. Once Stalin was convinced of this, he declared the intention of the Soviet state to give all the help it could to the Spanish loyalists." (Cole, David M. Josef Stalin; Man of Steel. London, New York: Rich & Cowan, 1942, pg 96)

Despite all this, many CNT members found refuge in… the USSR, congratulations.

Grover Furr's analysis of "Spain Betrayed" clogic.eserver.org/2003/furr

The CNT did just as much horrid shit. Ex. CNT Nun Corpses

libcom.org/forums/theory/prison-labor-camps-during-spanish-revolution-your-opinions-05102011

libcom.org/history/revolution-back-agenda-mark-kosman

In addition to that the Trots kept bickering with the MLs and further undermining the unity until they told them to fuck off.

marxists.org/history/etol/document/spain/spain07c.htm

The USSR and ML communists worked with the petty bourgeoisie for the same reason they tried to work with the anarchists and Trots, Together we stand, Divided we fall, antagonizing more people than necessary is counter-productive, and considering the experience of the Post-revolutionary period in Russia, they knew well that immediate communism is unrealistic because the people are not ready, that's why the NEP occurred, the people were too uneducated to give up irrational possessiveness and work in stateless communes. The same went for the CNT, except in the USSR they accepted this in return for remaining uncollapsed and strong enough to resist invasion and then initiated it after they had gotten themselves breathing room.

The USSR could not afford to throw around resources and it was 5x further away from Spain than Germany.

"In his conduct of foreign policy, Stalin showed great caution, restraint, and realism. He needed time to build up Russia’s industries and military strength. He was constantly provoked in the east and west, and in ways that must have infuriated him, but he never lost sight of the overriding need to delay the outbreak of war as long as possible. It was for this reason that he placed the greatest emphasis on peace and disarmament in world affairs." (Grey, Ian. Stalin, Man of History. London: Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1979, pg 296)

Anarchism: results are small to none

Soviet socialism: inspired revolutions world-wide, and economically rivaled the USA as the only other world super-power.

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You really don't know diddly about Russia do you?
The Free State was originally White Russian and used the old serf system, Mahno had helped to free it with the Red Army, but as the system flew out of control he started doing the same shit. The Cossaks started out as bandits and frankly that's who they originally were. They became a force similar to the privateers of Malta and Algiers, given the freedom to do whatever they liked as long as it served the Czar.

isreview.org/issues/53/makhno.shtml

icl-fi.org/english/wv/archives/oldsite/2005/Makhno-839.html

marxist.com/who-was-makhno-and-what-did-he-stand-for.htm

FinnishBolshevik literally did a series on this shit:
youtube.com/watch?v=ZiSM8SkE4mo

reddit.com/r/communism/comments/64wkgf/polemic_the_anarchokulak_bandits_of_russia_and/

Attached: guide to anarchists.jpg (928x344 70.93 KB, 18.67K)

They shot and gulaged the anarchists that were pulling Kronstadt rebellion reactionary shit.

Also unironically citing Berkman is fucking ridiculous. The man has more biases against the Bolsheviks than a jellyfish has tentacles.

Off the top of my head,
1) He was from the Baltic regions, an area that has historically hated Russia.
2) He was an anarchist who had been conflicting with the Bolsheviks since the beginning
There are more but it's a bother to pull them all out for someone who doesn't care.

Grow up. The CNT, POUM and other groups etc. kept infighting and as a military force were almost useless, in fact they were more of a liability than a help. The CNT got its weapons from the USSR, along side its training, supplies and a shit ton of other things but hey, who cares bout that right?!

The CNT-FAI and POUM never actually fought one another, they were on the same page on most issues, and sided together when fighting broke out with the PSUC. CNT trade union militias were also instrumental in stalling Franco’s intial attempts to seize control of the government, meaning that without them there likely wouldn’t have been a war at all, just a coup that rushed Franco to power with little resistance.

That's not what I said, I said infighting in general and that's true.
[X] Doubt

I say that after the revolution, we give the anarchists historical and current sites of anarchy (Catalonia, Chiapas, maybe Paris) plus some extra land elsewhere, move them all there, and leave each other the fuck alone.