Are there any chinese people or anyone who has lived in China who can debunk this vid?
youtube.com
I'm not on either side really, I was just trying to learn more about China and found this guys vids on youtube but I can't tell if he's just a liberal who is filtering everything through a liberal lens or just trying to tell the most truth. Please help a brainlet out
They don't even have universal healthcare or education in China. Dengist shills gtfo with your shitty neolib experiment.
You FOOL! They are ruled by the COMMUNIST party.
Dude I PROMISE I wasnt trying to shill China as a "true socialist" country, I was just trying to learn more about it and came across these guys vids and wanted to know if he was being truthful or not
China at best is Keynesian rn
Benefits? Let's see
-Tons of commodities to buy
-Plentiful, competitive wage jobs
-Lots of real estate and other property to trade around
-Stable currency
-A strong state, of course
It's pretty obvious, there's a ton of benefits to be had!
Shego is better.
Yeah me but just for 5 months as a student. Not really gonna watch the vid, but heres some perspective anyway.
Social programs does not make a country socialist. As a white foreigner, especially as a student, you have access to the top and the bottom of chinese society. Ive gone to clubs (for free because muh race) where rich chinese would spend thousands upon thousands of euros a night just on some drinks and fruit. I did shots with them, I got free wiskey, since as a foreigner you attract guests. Its disgustingly decadent.
Meanwhile in this very same city, on the very same street, in front of the fucking club, 70 year old grandmothers are scouring the trashcans looking for a plastic bottle which they can sell for a few yuancents. People with near-holocaust-faces walk around on the campus I was staying looking for bits of cardboard and plastic to resell in order to eat. This is the same, very rich city. The trash I threw out at the end of my stay (all the plastic bottles we accumulated because were too lazy to throw them away), it was a big bag full of bottles. I came downstairs, and this man, I guess somewhere between 30 and 40, but he could just be 25, with a hallow face, dirty all over him and a glassy, tired, detached expression of someone just trying to survive, was looking through the bin for plastic bottles. And here I was, with more bottles than he would find in two days, just fucking throwing it away. I wanted to fucking hang myself, I felt like such a disgusting cunt to give it to this man, almost like an insult to him, rubbing it in his face. And that was just my city. In beijing, people like that live in the middle of the city. Hutongs, "folk villages", are disgusting fucking slums in the middle of the city, in the most expensive street of all of china, next to the forbidden city and the parlement, hidden by a literal facade of 2.5 meters high. From the streetside it looked like a nice quant "historic" thing, since you cannot look inside, but when I looked down from my hotel room (i was on holiday for a few days) you could only see the collapsed roofs, the walls fallen down, the trash spread around and the holes on the roofs covered with tarp, weighted down by cartires. In the middle of beijing, in the capital, the crown jewel of what china supposedly is, there, people live in slums, old people scour the bins for bottles, 80 year old grandmothers have to do backbreaking work suck as sweeping the whole city with a straw broom in the cooking sun and the freezing cold, in the smog filled sky. Despite all chinas power, no street cleaning cars, no mechanization, but what they do have is 20 odd doormen at every important or semi-important building in every town in all of china, and a fuckton of military police standing around like fucking clowns.
And the countryside? Even worse. Villages do not even have working roads, all the houses are nothing more than either a tiny shed that is falling apart, similarly held together by tarp and prayers of its inhabitants, and at most a concrete, unisolated bunker that has the same internal temperature as the outside. It was fucking -12, and all these people have to keep them warm is a metal bucket with glowing coals under a table with a blanked over it. In fucking 2018, in fucking china, one of the most powerfull countries in the world. Even my people in 1900's living in literal grass and dirt huts had better isolation and housing than they do.
When I was in that club, that rich club, I was sitting in the ridiculously luxurious toilet lounge, or what do you call it. It has massage chairs. A rich bloke stumbles in, and what he threw up over my shoes cost probably the same amount of money that poor man who I gave my bottles to makes in a year.
No universal healthcare, no social security, no universal education even. China has a litteral caste system as well, where people from the countryside are forbidden from moving to the city, where their lives are marginally better since the city is the only place with functioning hospitals, unless you get good enough grades for going to university. Only citydwellers are allowed to move to other cities, only those who are already born into a city passport are allowed the freedom to live in cities.
Now I have not been to any other third world countries than china, but china is more capitalist than my first world country, and I could never have imagined such a massive, disgustingly stark difference in prosperity between the high and the low. I could have never imagined that people in china, the most powerfull country in the world, a supposedly socialist or communist nation, has people living in such abject poverty that it made the images of indian slums look like a prosperous neighbourhood, while in in the same city, a few blocks away, people drive around in teslas and ferraris.
I love the food in China, I love the landscape, but the economic conditions of the country, the government, fucking disgust me on a fundamental level.
Bump.
Foods amazing though, I recommend sweet&sour pork. Dont eat from the streetvendors unless its fruit they cut in front of you, dont drink the water from the tap, dont take anti-diarea pills (couldnt shit for 7 days and then near ripped my anus apart).
German teenage Dengoid, aka Lenin hat fag posting a long reply full of recycled arguments and spelling mistakes to debunk you in 3…2…1…
Also the people are super nice, but very competitive. If it comes down to it its every man for himself, despite being a "collectivist" culture they dont really do collectivism very well.
If you are going to visit anything outside of muh beijing and muh hongkong, go to the hallelujah mountains (in the summer its fucking misty and cold as fucking balls in the winter) in zhangjiajie, but be carefull to book the correct hotel, otherwise youre stuck in an unisolated bunker with matressless beds made for 19th century chinese people and nothing nearby, like I was.
That is obviously not true. Xi Jinping is a hundred-millionaire and the NPC is full of obscenely rich people. But even if it was true, that's not the definition of capitalism so it doesn't prove China is non-capitalist anyway. Stupid video.
I-it's just w-working on developing productive forces. Full communism by 2050 just you wait!
Also tianment mountain is the fucking shiiiiiit. like almost a fucking kilometer straight out of the ground. Never seen such an amazing place, highly recommend it. We stayed at the Hostel Geographer, pretty cool place, kinda hipsterish, normal toilet, they speak good english, beds are comfy and the heating actually functions, close to the bus station and the airport, also close to the cablecard which goes up the mountain. Mountain has those fucking scary glass walkways, massive walking routes, a fucking temple and all kindsa cool shit.
Most amazing thing ive even seen in my life.
Have you ever wondered who pays for universal healthcare and education in the west? It's the spoils of imperial exploitation.
Making people in developing countries work for less than 90% of the value they add gives you the plenty of leeway to run a lavish welfare state. Enough to keep workers in the first world from rising up against their imperial bosses.
But alas, as capitalism once again shit's the bed, those welfare states are on the way out, as they have since the post-Soviet collapse neoliberal revival.
Contrary to conceptions of Deng as a neoliberal lolbert, his methods are actually solidly in line with the observations of historical materialism. Mainly that, in order to advance socialism and overcome capitalism in China, it first needs to develop it's productive forces and become self sufficient. In turn, this is exactly what China has been doing for decades now: Using foreign investment (which really is the return of over five centuries of imperialist exploitation), and redirecting it to those industries that would make China truly independent.
China simply isn't in the same position as the Soviet Union was: It isn't energy self-sufficient. It imports food. And it's industries are unable to meet domestic demand for basic necessities such as healthcare.
In turn, that's where it's embrace of renewable energy, vertical farming and the made in China 2025 agenda come into play: It's the lack of self-sufficiency (and lack of party discipline) that ultimately undid the Soviet Union during the 1980s/90s.
In other words:
Actually read Deng
dengxiaopingworks.wordpress.com
>Eric Li Xun (born May 1968) is a Shanghai venture capitalist and the founder and managing director of Chengwei Capital. He is a member of the council of the International Institute for Strategic Studies. He is a director of China Europe International Business School and a trustee of the China Institute at Fudan University.
Trust porky.
I used to be friends with a Chinese guy who was the son of a rich family. He was one of those Chinese kids who bought a luxury car to use for college then just left it here. He brought me a deck of a cards covered in Maoist imagery that he'd bought in China.
I'm gonna fuck that cartoon
Thank you Naziposter, not for your post, but for the picture of balloons covering Mao's portrait. I've been looking for it for a while now.
Thats deng
ebig
It's hard for me to believe you're the real Naziposter. The real one wouldn't post arguments that have been repeatedly debunked and don't even coincide with empirical observation.
Then why is it that countries with the best healthcare/education systems are not imperial powers? Where is the proof? Where the evidence showing the line between global capitalism and welfare states?
The idea that China needed to develop isn't bad. It was an admission that China needs to go through capitalist development. The problem is that instead of calling it capitalism or state-capitalism the Chinese called it "the primary stage of socialism." That's revisionist bullshit.
If anything, the Chinese enable American imperialism by funding their military via buying up U.S. debt. Whether or not they will break American hegemony in the future remains to be seen.
This. The goal is the long-term destruction of capitalism. To achieve this they must first make themselves largely immune to foreign (imperialist) influence. Makes sense.
Did you become a ☭TANKIE☭ recently or something?
Fuck you’re way too based to be a leftcom.
Also in general, China shows absolutely no actual proof that it will ever slowly transition into socialism, even when its productive forces are up to par. Wouldn’t you think they’re at that point already where they should be actively building socialism already? They’re a world power, superpower even, and yet still only show signs of continued extreme neoliberal capitalist policies, aiding imperialism, and not even a shred of even social democratic reform.
It is a vulgar Marxist delusion to think that Dengism is gonna work out the way people shilling for it think.
third worldism BTFO
No, there’s a big portait of Mao on the building in that picture, but’s it’s covered up by balloons.
I want to fuck Kimpossible
Honestly I do have some sympathies for Deng from an accelerationist perspective, but I simply cannot stand twitter Dengists and would throw them all into barbed electrical suicide net if I could get away with it.
And this guy went to school?
Learn dialectics kid.
Same goes to you.
Dialectics isn’t a catch-all phrase used to justify any contradictory policy lead by an ostensibly “socialist” party.
There is a difference between thinking that Deng's reforms were necessary to develop the productive forces for socialism and that china is actually socialist, boy
Go to Marx and ask Ismail about the ups and downs of Chinese State capitalism if you want a serious nuanced not shitpost answer
A lot of these countries benefited from imperialism, without America and the EU I have doubts many modern welfare states would be able to exist in perpetual ality, don't forget even countries like France continue binding policies on her ex colonies for example.
All these claims, yet you couldn't be bothered to post a single picture. Please promote your videos in an honest way next time buddy boyo.
this sounds made up/exaggerated tbh
Sounds like Flint, Michigan or Gary Indiana.
This. America is getting more third world by the day. After the depression and the war it might actually end up becoming something like today's Russia even.
O beautiful for halcyon skies,
For amber waves of grain,
For purple mountain majesties
Above the enameled plain!
America! America!
God shed His grace on thee,
Till souls wax fair as earth and air
And music-hearted sea!
O beautiful for pilgrim feet
Whose stern, impassioned stress
A thoroughfare for freedom beat
Across the wilderness!
America! America!
God shed His grace on thee
Till paths be wrought through wilds of thought
By pilgrim foot and knee!
O beautiful for glory-tale
Of liberating strife,
When once or twice, for man's avail,
Men lavished precious life!
America! America!
God shed His grace on thee
Till selfish gain no longer stain,
The banner of the free!
O beautiful for patriot dream
That sees beyond the years
Thine alabaster cities gleam
Undimmed by human tears!
America! America!
God shed His grace on thee
Till nobler men keep once again
Thy whiter jubilee!
This is true, but how does America being an openly neoliberal dystopia negate China’s existence as a paper thinly veiled neoliberal dystopia(that aids that other open neoliberal dystopia). Unless that wasn’t why you brought it up?
If I hadn't been there and seen it all myself i wouldnt believe it either.
I dont do videos matey
But heres some pics.
First one hutong
Second one a cool wallpainting next to the campus
Third a picture of a picture of the devils that hangs in the national museum
Fourth are the hallelujah mountains at -15. Fucking leaves had a cm of ice on them.
Not gonna post my holiday pics with my face on it, and no, I did not photograph the trash searching people, im not a dickhead nor am I a philosopher.
I don't really have anything against Ismail but when it comes to China his opinions are absolutely not nuanced or unbiased. He literally just parrots whatever the CPC line is on any given issue.
>about the ups and downs of Chinese State capitalism
Ismail does not believe China is state capitalist. He believes China currently has a socialist mode of production (which, of course, is ridiculous).
In that China with state capitalism almost caught up with the usa since 1950, and if we take 1950 as a starting point, if USA was 0 on the scale, China was like -1000. In a bit more than fifty years they literally lifted a billion people from stone-age like poverty and hunger to capitalist like poverty without hunger. Give them another 50 years and they'll colonize Mars.
Progress can only be so fast and so vast … even if they took a better, more suitable approach, the results wouldn't have been a lot better - but in this case there would be a real danger they become destroyed by CIA financed death squads.
…while there's still a bunch of homeless people on the street and still no signs of socialism.
This seems like such wishful thinking. All of the gains they’ve made with neoliberal capitalism shilling, could have been made with some kind of state market socialism at the least, your assertion that if they try socialism the CIA would immediately sniff it like an anticommunist Mcgruff the crime dog is ridiculous. Most americans legitimately think that communism is what China is doing right now, so what would even be the difference? As long as the China stayed away from being aggressively anti-imperialist, made sure its defense was strong, and made clear of a willingness to use nuclear deterrence, they could’ve been building up productive forces in an actually socialist way. The way they haven’t, and just stick to revisionist dengism, every day, prosecuting more and more actual Marxists, crushing labor rights, without any signs of stopping… makes your view of China very doubtful
I still think you don't realize what China was before WW2 and how gigantic of a change the last 50 years have brought to the country.
1930s China was not comparable with 1930s any western country, and not even USSR. 1930s China could be compared to 1400 western countries, or even worse.
Yes, it is not magical and the future is uncertain, I am just pointing out how fast of a development China made in this time.
And on a further more Zizekian concern, how will switching to socialism once they’ve achieved productive forces even turn out very well? They haven’t enforced socialism from an ideological standpoint, and have instead fostered capitalist thinking in their citizens. So think about the average Chinese urban worker, he’s maybe hit higher wages and he lives more comfortably, and he’s a bit more optimistic in the neoliberal lie that if he focuses on the consolidation of profits, and yields to private individuals, he’s gonna be fine, and that’s just the way it has to be. How is he gonna transition from that to a genuinely Marxist view of his role and duty in a new communist society?
Also, USA went to the moon with creationism being taught in schools.
I do realize this, but it doesn't change my point that China is a capitalist country, going through capitalist development (which does raise living standards even though it concentrates wealth in very few hands), and won't introduce reforms to bring them back on the socialist path without another revolution.
This.
the pressure of a billion of peasants and workers
The socialist path many keep telling China to tread cannot be attempted until China attains full independence with cutting edge productive forces, it's almost as if this entire board has Alzheimer's in regard to how no socialist country bar the ussr (which even then, was at best close) to the level of development the richer western core was, and is now. Until it reaches that point the memes about poverty, famine and starvation will always plague mentions of socialism/communism.
China is the world's largest capitalist economy and pretty much a world superpower after the United States. It's not some dirt poor backwards semi-feudal country anymore. If you think socialism is so useless that it's not a possibility even in a country like China, then why are you on this board?
It's gonna be so great in like 2060 when China is the world's most powerful capitalist country and they still don't have a fucking universal healthcare system because "it's just too expensive, who is gonna pay for it? we need to develop the productive forces first we'll have socialism by 2100, promise!"
Yeah no bub it's still not near the level of the USA, especially in the military, along with traditional sectors such as engines, semiconductors, medical equipment etc.
They still have ways to go, thus their hopeful prediction of 2025.
I'm not a Dengist nor do I think the CPCh pursues socialism, but this shouldn't be that surprising considering China's GDP per capita is still pretty low. It's not yet a First World country. The reason they are so powerful is because their country GDP and a high average Autism Level so they have the soft power as well.
The inequality is disgusting but I don't know what people expect from a country that is on the same level as Iraq or the Dominican Republic (!!!) in terms of GDP per capita
en.m.wikipedia.org
How? Is this purely because of the oil welfare?
Are you fucking shitting me? All western countries with good health care system are deeply entangled in the imperialist machine, do you seriously think something like Netherlands or Austria does not profit from imperialism? The only other reason not to be reliant on imperialism is to be sitting on oil or being a tax haven.
I mean, China does actually have a socialist mode of production. But it's small compared to the entire economy. I'd estimate it's less than 10%, as you can't equate state ownership with socialist ownership (state quota being 50% in China but through various capitalist forms of ownership). Deng didn't touch what Mao built in China but through the unleashing of capitalism it completely degenerated.
Not just that simple. Sure, the western states benifit from imperialism. But states like Slovenia also have great healthcare - tnx to the socialist revolution.
What I posted before: China GDP per capita is really bad, and far, far away from Western standards.
Former Eastern Bloc countries have often retained social institutions but they are paid for by low wages. My ex was from Estonia and man, they are being paid do shittily (and Estonia was one of the most developed members states of the USSR).
What about countries like ukraine? How is Ukraine exploiting third world and how come they can have (very shitty, but still) universal healthcare?
But Estonia went full neoliberal nightmare in the last 15 years as well.
In Ukraine there universal healthcare is a sham. When you go to give birth you have to buy all the drugs and medical equipment (scissors, robes i mean everything).
How do love wages pay for healthcare? Does Estonia have a cheaper market to buy drugs than France? lmao
What I just said, extremely low wages and low purchasing power
Secondly, Ukraine has profited from Russian gas and oil imperialism (being sold energy at low prices) till 2014. My point is that it is impossible to not be imperialist and have good almost free healthcare and not be a tax haven or sitting on fossil fuels. I mean, look at the EU. Germany porky is one of the worst in world and pretty much provides the entirety of the EU with cheap exports, which let's most EU countries have good healthcare.
I don't know how it is in Estonia, but in Germany your employer has to pay part of your health coverage, which leads to lower wages because of higher cost for labor power.
You american idiot. There is no free healthcare in the universal healthcare countries. There is a tax system where everyone contribute (dependent on their income) and a part is contributed by capitalists.
HOW WOULD LOW WAGES SUPPORT BUYING DRUGS, EQUIPMENT ETC.
goddamn moron
Do you have brain damage?
You neoliberal dumb fuck. Is this Hayek's ghost writing?
They wouldn't, the professional class and managers would be taxed in order to pay for it.
I might be a brainlet, but come the fuck on
Didn't China implement universal healthcare in 2011? The guy Jason was arguing with in his debate claimed so
that is imperialism, but Ukraine was victim of imperialism, not benefactor
also
doctors, lawyers, bureaucrats, and management, especially party members, should be taxed at higher rates than low wage proles.
which they are in every civilized country
Yes, but that doesn't make them separate class.
So Germany flooding the entire EU with their cheap exports while keeping their own citizen's purchasing power low is not imperialism? Unironically read Lenin
This is basic Marxism you dumbfuck. Guess what, at some point leftoids like you have to accept social democracy doesn't work
Dumb fuck. We want them to pay a lot of taxes, until they bleed out.
Social costs enforced on the capitalists by political force, cutting down wages in response. My god, the SuccDems are triggered today
READ MARX
Oh come on the fuck on, you faggots aren't even pretending it anymore, is it?
Funny how the board who calls wage thievery is 100% down on taxation.
You should read Marx, illiterate fucktard. Read what Marx wrote about taxing capitalists. Goddamn illiterate idiots, WHY THE HELL ARE YOU HERE DEBATING SHIT IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FUCK YOU'RE SAYING
It was not a victim of imperialism, Russia has lent Ukraine gas at a low interest rate, then Ukraine aligned with literal Nazis and US finance capital causing Crimea to split off. The Ukraine in 2018 is an outpost of imperialism against Russian industrial capital
Is this during the DOTP or communism proper?
It's during when we still live in a capitalist society.
Yeah because Marx wrote his stuff in the fucking 19th century where there was almost no business tax, of course the modern state needs taxes, that doesn't change that capital accumulation is coming to a hold if the state is not seized by the workers and the capitalists aren't expropriated. What do you think happens when you have a 100% tax by the bourgeois state that does nothing with it? My god, don't read Marx if you are younger than 15
Wait, but capitalist controls those countries, how exactly do you do that?
nobody likes taxation, but universal healthcare and education are economically great things under any regime.
Gee, Marx helped to write a party program for a political party in the capitalist state. Gee, but capitalists ran that state, how did he do it.
Retardation in this topic is incredible.
By voting a socialist party in power. Hurr durr they will then just lower wages. Then you have mas worker strikes. Then it comes down to the state of class struggle - how much strength do the sides have. Is the socialist party properly ran? Are most of the workers striking? Then you either get 1) taxes stay and wages stay 2) workers are defeated completely 3) workers win and we get dictatorship of the proletariat
dude, you are unironically retarded. Your ability to move goalposts with every post to somehow prove you are right is the most disgusting thing I have seen in long time.
Where did I move the goalposts? All I did was to respond to your post, get yourself some ice tea you hothead
Did Marx ever gotten into power? Oh wait.
Yeah, because scabs and illegal immigration ain't a thing.
America's VA and Medicare are paid through America's taxes, and are more stably funded than Social Security. Fuck off with this revisionism and lunacy.
So why import nuclear reactors from America and why try to price dump the market? The Soviet Union demonstrated that the former is not necessary and the latter is the exact sort of price control idiocy that contributed to the USSR's downfall.
Ah yes and how does America get this revenue you dumbass, could it be through militarily positioning itself so it can run it's own system to keep it's own citizens just content enough?
The more imperialism America does the higher the military cost aka tax burden, empires are expensive hence why most countries stopped having them. It's regular Americans paying income taxes, who make their money independent of military adventurism in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Sudan. In fact every time public healthcare entities try dabbling with Imperialism (notably CalPERS investing into housing stocks in 2006) it always fucks them.
It's close enough to universal healthcare since old people are the vast majority of healthcare users. They're the ones who need the most healthcare and spend the most money to obtain it. It is good enough to demonstrate that universal healthcare does not require imperialism (or capitalism, for that matter).