What is Venezuela? Some have said Venezuela is a communist country. Others say it is a socialist country. However...

Don't you mean socialism?

But it wouldn't exactly be free market capitalism, would it?

No sir, they're two different things. Socialism is worker control over the means of production. Social democracy is basically a welfare state.

So all workers are shareholders, and there are no non-worker shareholders, under such a form of socialism?

That's more of a cooperative thing. You're thinking in capitalist terms, but you're kind of close, I suppose. Have you checked the reading thread? If you're willing to learn more you should check there or just keep asking questions. I'm sure anons smarter than me can help you.

It's an authoritarian social democracy.

Ah, a "cooperative thing". Sort of like how FB, Twitter, Googlezon, and the rest, spotify, apple, and Microsoft, all do their "cooperative thing" in banning right-wing thought?

Emotion-based politics can only exist in certain parts of society. Eventually, there have to be cold hard rules.

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Huh? That's not what I mean. Are you falseflagging? I mean that each person owns the means of production they are using, and property is held in common as such. Like, you still own your own shit, but you don't individually own businesses or anything like that.

What the absolute fuck are you talking about?

That's what I thought too. What the hell is a "cooperative thing"?

You… cooperate. You work together. Is this hard to grasp?

it's just a complete fucking non-sequitur

lmddgtfy.net/?q=workers cooperative

non-sequiter is fancy latin speak for does not follow if I remember correctly

How do they come to own massive equipment? For example, in the mining industry, some trucks are so expensive that the owner, if you get right down to it, is a creditor, not the shareholders. Certainly, no work crew owns a million-dollar giant earth mover.

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So this was sarcasm. Or do you believe that FB-Googlezon-Apple-Twit are a kind of corporate collective?

I'm surprised by how little you leftists know of the kikes, given how brutal they've been toward the Palis, and the supposed left position re. their plight…

because no workers own the means of production (yet), duh

you're thinking in capitalist terms when we aim to abolish capitalism

yeah maybe non-sequitur wasn't the best term to use but i am tired and that post made my brain hurt

Well a workers co-op is a kind of corporation, and as such is a legal person
So one would presume they co-op does it the same way other corporations etc do, by taking on debt

They… make it? Or, the manufacturing sector of the economy makes it for them? It's not that complicated. Think of how the internals of a company requisition things from each other all the time.

Oh, so you're a Zig Forumsyp. No wonder this shit is hard to grasp.

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well yeah they kind of are, they are an oligopoly that rules the information market, the fuck does that have to do with socialism though?

oh boy here we go

What do you do with the remaining 98% of people who are not leadership material?

Do you know why Microsoft threatened to shut down Gab? I'm guessing not…

Everyone pitches in. If a manager is needed, they'll be elected. That's it. We already produce a lot of shit, I don't think we'll need to just "start getting rid of people". That's ridiculous.

who the fuck cares? what the fuck are you on about? take your meds

I operate scientifically - by observation, ideally. Tell how I might observe this "cooperation".

I should also very much like to know how people who make very little relative to the equipment they operate are to own their equipment.

Well, if politics aren't interesting to you, you could find other hobbies.

Nowhere is "free market capitalism"

Read any fucking book whatsoever? Read up on the Soviet Economy, or Kropotkin's theory of Mutual Aid?
Not everything has to work with Capitalist "logic". And besides, who the fuck creates value anyways? The workers.

duckduckgo.com/?q=workers cooperative&t=lmddgtfy&kae=-1&ia=web
Recall

Yet we cannot escape that there are more and fewer controls. You have effectively said, "all underpants are diapers". And that's true, to a certain extent…

maybe if you are a Zig Forumsack

Look, if you don't know either, just admit it.

nah man I can't call mark zuckerberg a nigger online WE LIVE UNDER WORLD KIKERY GUYS

What the fuck is your point?

Heiled.

Worth considering. So it is indeed a situation where all employees are shareholders, and no non-employees are shareholders?

You absolute brainlet, I've just given you two examples, and the other user gave you a literal google link to find more information. I know reading anything other than infographs is hard for your feeble, insect-like brain, but trust me, you'll learn a lot.

Weird. I thought myself quite plain, indeed quite plain.

You mean you referenced what presumably are to count for examples, though I have not verified their worth.

no one is a "shareholder", workers just operate the factories and distribute the product according to need, with no one on the top counting money and selling paper with numbers on it, is that a hard concept to grasp?

There's confusion going on here because we're talking about co-ops not socialism per se

Effectively, yes I think so… co-ops aren't something I have detailed knowledge of
But I do find it shocking you haven't heard of them before

Oh, I thought we were talking about socialism, not communism.

Well, I guess you could say "according to their work", if that would make you more comfortable. Of course, accounting for things such as children and those unable to work.

And who is to force people to demonstrate what their full abilities are, in light of the fact that, regardless of their contributions, the rewards remain a constant?

Are you describing wage labour? The entire point is that their pay is for ALL of their labour, all they do, not just a portion of it. Not everyone is paid the same, fucking christ. Have you never read Marx, Engels, or Lenin?

Well opinions vary, but in stalinist russia gulags and medals seemed to work pretty well

Meh, I have no interest in throwing more people in prison myself. Besides, you don't put proles in GULAG, only lumpens and bourgeois.

Yeah I was just typing

True, true. Still, my point is people weren't simply paid the same. There was egalitarian tendencies, sure, but you were paid according to your work and not a wage.

they don't have to, labor doesn't have to be only rewarded by money that can be used to purchase private property

labor vouchers, social credit (medals and fame etc), bonuses like better vacations or housing with a nice view and so on can go a long way to reward better productivity, especially when your vital needs are already covered

That's not in accordance to one's needs, is it?

Well, I should correct myself. Not all labour, as a portion is taken for common use. Taxes, for roads and hospitals, and shit everyone uses, basically.

I've just told you, socialism is being paid according to your work. Communism is taking freely according to want and need. We're not post-scarcity yet. And not everyone needs the exact same things, that's foolish. People are individuals, not an identical hive.

Very interesting. It sounds pretty much the same as how things are anyhow.

No? Do you know how wages work, or how capitalism works in general?

Turns out, the more skilled and more social need a lot more steak than base laborers, eh?

Disproportionate rewards in your system, disproportionate rewards in our system. Two systems, same basic results.

For what folks around here call socialism as opposed to fully automated luxury gay space communism, yeah pretty much

The difference is less social inequality, full employment, and no economic depressions

In laymans terms socialism cracks the old chestnut that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer

except in one system the means of production are owned by a capitalist who sets rewards arbitrarily in a way that allow him to take most value from the workers and leave them scraps to survive on

in the other workers collectively own the means of production and receive the full value of their labor, so if you work more you receive more

I have trouble seeing why people would consider dramatic changes, structurally, in exchange for modest results.

meant for

If you work more you receive more, under this system too. Work 40 hours, get twice as much as 20 hours, thereabouts.

I've got stuff to do, and have to go
As a parthian shot though, I must ask
Is full employment and avoiding economic depressions really all that modest a result?

Historically on top of this the USSR managed to pretty much eliminate homelessness and we now know a lot of things about economics and have far more advanced technology, the benefit of hindsight, so on so forth than they ever had

It's not really full employment, of course. All that can be done, in certain situations, is to assign make-work. But a lack of poverty for the non-lazy is seductive. As far as avoiding depressions, isn't that straining the definition a bit, because, while, true, the GDP would remain constant, there would be many goods having little or no use to anyone?

So uh. Why was this thread anchored?

Oh well. Same as Google, Amazon, Facebook, Twitter, Spotify, Apple. All are likewise communist-socialist, in that they cannot handle debate.

Ironically, The Republic has no gadflies…

Unlike communism, fascism is capable of handling criticism. For this reason all men can have full confidence fascism is the way.

No, make work would defeat the point of socialism since to value would have to be skimmed off productive work to pay for it

The labour inputs to the economy can be optimized cf. Cockshott

Think of it as economic streamlining

It's been anchored for a long time now
The discussion continued for quite a while without you noticing

This board is slow enough that being autosaged doesn't kill a thread, just sinks it off page 1 of the board

I can assure you I've seen threads critical of facism not merely autosaged, but simply nuked on fascist controlled boards

You can protest the anchoring of your thread on the hotpockets sticky