Labor Theory of Value

howdy y'all

I made a shitty thread a while back about becoming an Ancom, and after actually beginning to read Capital, and talking to other Marxists, I've been swayed.

I was having a discussion with my uncle, an ardent Libertarian, who for some reason defends Trump, and I was having trouble talking about the Labor Theory of Value. Rather, I was having trouble presenting it, because he got down into pedantics and then said that 'whatever you say doesn't matter, value is subjective'

I wanted to ask, what is a good way to introduce the Labor Theory of Value to people? Or is there any hope in introducing the Labor Theory of Value to some people?

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c4ss.org/content/12561
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There is no necessary and direct connection between the value of a good and whether, or in what quantities, labor and other goods of higher order were applied to its production. A non-economic good (a quantity of timber in a virgin forest, for example) does not attain value for men since large quantities of labor or other economic goods were not applied to its production. Whether a diamond was found accidentally or was obtained from a diamond pit with the employment of a thousand days of labor is completely irrelevant for its value. In general, no one in practical life asks for the history of the origin of a good in estimating its value, but considers solely the services that the good will render him and which he would have to forgo if he did not have it at his command…The quantities of labor or of other means of production applied to its production cannot, therefore, be the determining factor in the value of a good. Comparison of the value of a good with the value of the means of production employed in its production does, of course, show whether and to what extent its production, an act of past human activity, was appropriate or economic. But the quantities of goods employed in the production of a good have neither a necessary nor a directly determining influence on its value.

Explaining the LTV to most people is probably a waste of time. If they're interested then tell them to read Marx's Capital, volume 1 chapter 1.

I would argue the same but I think you misspoke.
Wrong. The socially-necessary labor-time to produce a diamond on average is what determines its value in general. Whether or not you find a diamond in the subway doesn't change this since we're talking about society-wide production and not isolated events that have no bearing on society as a whole.
This is a fallacy because you ignore the fact that producers will only produce if they can sell their goods above the cost of production. If demand falls below that point they must end production. The price of a good reflects the underlying value for the buyer, albeit in a disguised form.

"Socially-necessary" is not well-defined and is ultimately concealing a subjective judgement of necessity. For example, imagine a laborer who spends his time tying knots in a piece of cord. The laborer does his job as efficiently as is humanly possible, but Marx would likely agree that simply tying knots in cords is not a socially necessary use of labor. The problem is that what is "socially necessary" depends entirely on whether or not there is demand for the finished product, i.e., the knotted cord. In this way, introducing the "socially necessary" qualifier into the labor theory of value simply converts the theory into a roundabout and imprecise description of supply and demand.

Empirical evidence basically. Subjective theory is structurally unsound and unfalsifiable: there's no data to support it, it's not predictive, it's entirely based on faith. You might as well say exchange value per commodity is handed down by god to retailers. Obviously supply/demand models are somewhat influential on prices, but aren't the actual *source* of value. Neither is it utility, which smith explained way back when is generally excepted even by new value theorists.

Labor is likely to be the source of exchange value simply because it is empirically supported. Labor time inputs are much more correlated to profit in across all industries than ANY other input, the implication being that IF exchange value wasn't derived from labor, the value most come quite literally from nothing, and is therefore outside the realm of science. Anyone who accepts the scientific method and a rational approach to political economy ought to at least critically support the labor theory. I'm sorry I don't have the graphs on me right now, but do yourself a favor and watch Cockshott's video "why the labor theory of value is right" and the follow up which addresses some of the basic dunderheaded replies he received. Those videos are perfect for beginners and probably enough to win a debate with anyone who isn't actually educated in monetary theory.

I'm glad you're looking into this because, despite being kinda fuckin boring at first, the labor theory of value is absolutely necessary in understanding every other aspect of scientific socialism – there is little justification for a restructuring of the political economy if workers aren't being exploited at all, and as a matter of fact a state with fully socialized production where workers are given the constitutional right to the full value of their labor would simply collapse or be basically the same as what came before if that "full value" doesn't actually have a basis in reality.

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The "value is subjective" meme is just lolberts sticking their head in the sand. If you accept that totally and that there is no rhyme or reason to value, then you can't make any meaningful conclusions from that one way or the other. It's a way to absolve themselves of having to debate actual meaning and resort to pre-planned talking points about their feels.

That said, in a way value is subjective, in that it only matters so long as human beings engage in exchange and invent some system of equivalencies for various goods in the market or when bartering. But, once you enter the realm of production, there are definite, material, and real factors in that production which cannot be handwaved away, and one thing which is fundamental to all commodities is that they are the product of human labor.

Why human labor? Ultimately, it's because most of the people in capitalism are working for a wage in some form, and that is what binds them to the economic system in the first place. One of the uses of money is ultimately to command labor and guide people to do what the owner of that money wants. Money, of course, is not inherent to the universe or human nature, and the very existence of money is a subjective fiction we all agree to, yet almost everyone alive doesn't have to a choice to not participate in the money economy in some way, and even if they don't use money themselves their lives are determined by money (for example someone living in an assisted living facility has a definite cost associated with his upkeep). There is simply no real, material basis to compare goods in terms of exchange value, qualitatively they are different things, but we as people make exchange calculations for our own reasons and once we do those calculations have to be based on material reality to mean anything. Shouting at the top of your lungs that value is subjective, then, is just a kind of economic autism.

I think some socialists get it wrong when they talk about workers "getting the full value of their labor". When Marx talked about economic exploitation, he wasn't decrying a mean thing capitalists do and his observation was not novel. Marx explained exploitation and surplus value as necessary steps for his critique of capitalism, and explained exploitation as a necessary condition for capitalism to perpetuate itself. This was not something that was a novel revelation - everyone who has ever worked for a living and anyone who had to pay taxes to someone above them knows how this system works. It was only in the minds of the most vulgar of economists that this even needs to be questioned.

Any socialist system sufficiently advanced would have to move beyond exchange value and look at the qualities of the goods being produced, then allocate them based on use-values (that is, the effects of the goods in question and the desired outcomes). I believe we could do this partially now, and work out a scheme for compensation in labor vouchers as a temporary measure to function kind of like money, until such time that people are accustomed to dealing directly in resource budgets.

That's a false equivalency. I concede that the "socially necessary" appendage might reveal that supply and demand do influence exchange value (in that they determine whether a commodity is even sold) it does not mean that supply and demand are the source of exchange value (as supply/demand proponents would have it). Labor values, in capitalism (ie mass commodity production in a competitive market, not some Robinson Crusoe old timey village fairy tale), always exist in every commodity produced. IF that commodity goes to market, and IF it is socially necessary (or "in demand") then the exchange value or price will be derived from the labor time which has been used to make it. If the commodity is not sold or is sold for less than the value of the labor time used, then the capitalist simply fails, as they cannot derive profit without buying labor time for less than it's worth.

In short, Marx uses "socially necessary" because, as far as the question of exchange value by itself goes, it really only matters if the commodity IS socially necessary, or is "in demand". The exact figures making up supply or demand are irrelevant to the price. "Social necessity" in the view of Smith/Ricardo/Marx is a subject completely separate from monetary theory.

Correct, but vastly different amounts of labor can result in the same number of products produced, so labor time itself cannot be the sole driving value of value either. Is a diamond that is 100 feet underground less valuable than the same sized diamond 400 feet underground, simply because it takes less labor to extract?

Marx is looking at the aggregate production in the economy, not the value of an individual item in it. Someone buying a diamond in the market doesn't care how much work the miner put into extracting the diamond, the going rate for diamonds is going to be the same across the market. Whoever can extract the diamonds the cheapest will be able to set a lower price in a competitive environment, and the firm that pays more to extract the same thing just won't be able to compete as well.

No, "socially-necessary labor-time" refers to the amount of labor-time necessary to produce a commodity, in a given time and place. It has nothing to do with what you're talking about.

Stop. The term is "socially-necessary labor-time." It has nothing to do with supply or demand. It has nothing to do with judgments about whether such labor is useful or needed by society.

Correct
Incorrect
If we assume that Mine A can produce diamonds with only 1/4 the labor-time of Mine B, then the SNLT drops to that of Mine A, meaning that in general one would expect prices to fall to the new average over time. So yes, changes in the SNLT will result in changed exchange-values.

Of course "value" is subjective, but there are two questions:
-what is the "center of gravity" of prices, IE WHY do prices equalize at certain points?
-is labor time (an objective measurement of human energy spend on production) the center of gravity of prices?
If the answer to the second question is YES, then a specific kind of value, exchange value, is objective. And as the other user pointed out, the scientific evidence confirms that the exchange value of commodities equalizes to their labor values. As well I'd like to point out that labor value is logically obvious without scientific studies, Capital V 1 and Ricardo explain it very well.

I'll humor it.

If both those diamonds – which have the same physical qualities – went on to market, then the one which was 100 feet underground would indeed be sold for a price which corresponds to labor time.

The other 400 foot diamond most likely simply wouldn't come to market, because selling it according to it's labor value would make it much more expensive than the 100 foot diamond. If it were sold at a competitive price (the same as the cheaper one), the seller would be bankrupt because more was spent on labor than was sold as commodities.

The 400 feet diamond could possibly still be sold at break-even price, it depends. Maybe the average depth for diamond extraction is 300 feet (with proportional labor time, for sake of argument), then the 400 foot diamond might even still make a slim profit. Later on, as all the 100 foot diamonds are mined, 400 feet diamonds become more profitable, as they are now the average labor expenditure.

This pretty much sums it up OP.

I also have another question: is it right to say we aim to get rid of commodity production entirely?

That is exactly right; and by that we mean that production would no longer be just to sell shit on the market, and ultimately market exchange would be superseded by production and distribution for use.

The labor theory of value is essentially an incredibly awkward way of saying "there are only two factors in the cost of production: the cost of labor, and money paid to rent seekers."

it doesn't tho, SNLT is the average time needed.

and natural resources dummy, read marx

sorry, I can't read.

Here is the fundamental hypothesis and the empirical approach one needs summed up.

"The labour theory of value posits that the statistical expected value (or mean) of the price of a freely reproducable commodity is proportional to the statistically average total labour input necessary for its reproduction"

If this does not hold then it is trivial to statistically falsify it. After that it is simply up to the one making the counter argument that there is statistical evidence falsifying it and that they present it. Since all available evidence essentially confirm it that is kind of hard.

Cockshott proved numerous times that LTV holds up.

Also value (exchange value) is not an attribute of the commodity.

It's hopeless bro. If he can't even pretend to be smarter than other conservatives (i.e. a Libertarian's entire shtick) then he's not going to be looking for alternatives like "what if I was wrong the entire time".

Use C4SS to convince him that the Subjective Theory of Value leads to the Labour Theory off Value

c4ss.org/content/12561

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youtube.com/watch?v=-arn--Gtu-E

Marx's letter to kugleman maybe? If capital's too long at least

This one specifically
marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1868/letters/68_07_11-abs.htm
I heard bakunin's book "economic theory of the leisure class" (something like that title) is p directly related to this but I've never read it. In any case it sounds like he's a bit confused. For marx, a necessary condition for some type of labor adding value to a product was that it was socially necessary and the labor added would only be the average amount of labor a person in that society would need to produce the given article. So "subjectivity" plays a role in it still. If he's defending a marginal utility type position just make sure you're clear on the distinction between wealth and value. Roughly, if I want a product as wealth I want it because it is somehow useful to me (a chair to sit on, food to eat etc), if I want it as value I want it because of how much it secures for me on the market (the owner of a refrigerator factory may not have ever needed to chill his food yet he keeps his warehouse full of fridges to sell on the market). These two uses get tangled together in various ways in capitalist society obvi, but marx is careful to distinguish the two. MU nerds usually rely on confusing them to some degree.

FUCK i meant bukharin sorry I'm tired

Easy: abandon all civilized goods. Then, objective value of products is obvious when their main purpose is survival. Hope that helps!

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I don't know my weight, yet the Earth attracts me all the same.

It is though: necessary on average in a given society.

this is the most autistic exchange i've seen here in a while. the law of value has nothing to do with a denial of supply and demand nor is the value of goods identical with the prices of goods. both of the points you've been trying to make in the past few replies have nothing to do with marx's position and marx was very explicit about both of these matters. several times actually. everything you're saying comes off like a freshman econ student who read a wikipedia page on the labor theory of value and decided they knew how to debunk it with no further research.