Veganism

How do you feel about veganism?
Is it primarily a petty-bourgois lifestyle or hobby, or does it have potential to help reduce environmental damage? How does "cruelty free" consumption under capitalism change workers conditions in the global south?
Doesn't comparing animal suffering to human suffering reduce or trivialize the latter?

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Other urls found in this thread:

revleft.space/vb/threads/196200-Veganism?p=2876741#post2876741
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_and_Soil
lmgtfy.com/?q=left wing vegetarian literature
timesofisrael.com/china-makes-massive-investment-in-israeli-lab-meat-technology/
mltheory.wordpress.com/2017/07/22/vegetarianism-communism/
youtube.com/watch?v=c7YUNHugPV8
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canticle_of_the_Sun
twitter.com/NSFWRedditVideo

pure lifystylism. there can be no ethical consumption under capitalism, it's just moralism for the fee fees.

Also why does the 'left' attract so many of these types? I've noticed that any sort of leftist organization or demonstration invites a good number of these lifestyle people.

it's edgy liberals mistaking actual leftists for just more of them, then start REEEEing when they realise that their normalfaggotry won't fly.

Degenerates, degenerates, we'll all soon turn into monkeys!
I don't say 'let's do nothing', I'm saying sometimes doing nothing is the most violent thing to do.

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if veganism was profitable capitalism would go for it
but selling junk is better for them
if veganism was more reasonable in every other regard but profits, socialism would adapt it
personally i couldnt care less about this particular issue and whether its beneficial or not
if you want veganism in capitalism despite the reality of things you're just kind of a moron

and many of them are quite patronizing towards blue collar workers at least here in 'straya, who get their kids mcdonalds every now and then, smoke cigarettes and drink beer themselves etc..
I wasn't surprised to learn that a good number of fascists are vegan, and that there exists an 'eco-fascist' movement

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now I've heard everything. I thought fascists hated tree huggers for being "damn dirty hippies".

no, nazis are dirty tree huggers themself
just a bit more edgy

revleft.space/vb/threads/196200-Veganism?p=2876741#post2876741
Obligatory.

never heard this before, it seemed like they were all about exploiting the environment for every resource they could get.

Check out 8/pol/ and /ecopol/ sometime. Fascists there are obsessed with the environment and nature. Hitler himself famously was a vegetarian and animal-lover. It ties perfectly into their ideology because of the role of nature in the national mythos, and the imagined heroic past where people lived in "harmony with nature.

Environmentalism that is divorced from dialectical materialism is thoroughly reactionary. What else is new.

First world bourgeois privilige with really cancerous followers

a lot of neopagans and similar shit in Europe are straight up skinhead and neonazi groups that harp about muh heritage and muh nature

having done some digging on this subject, it really is interesting how ludicrously spooky evironmentalists can be, as well as ties to neo-paganism and fascism. Thanks for the reading material comrades, this is very intredasting.

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VEGANISM IS NOT A LIFESTYLE OR DIET, IT IS A POLITICAL ORIENTATION THAT CRITIQUES THE PLACE OF NONHUMAN ANIMALS IN CAPITALIST RELATIONS OF PRODUCTION SINCE THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION

that's true also, don't expect nazis to be consistent in their autistic escapism and their terrorist practice
there's a term for their naturalism or whatever but i just can't find the articles i had on it, i apologize
it was almost anprim, hating on industrialization and the city, romanticizing some sort of feudalist agrarian society and lifestyle on the countryside

it's really quite bizarre

since the human has not yet been freed from capitalism, don't you think its incredibly chauvinistic to start worrying about pigs and cows?

All the relevant leftists are vegans or at least vegetarians.
Tolstoy,Lenin,Einstein. Modern ones too. FinBol. Shaun, Mexie.

If you are not vegetarian, you are honorary american and deserve to get shot

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nevermind it's just "blood and soil", i thought there was something more specific in that regard but guess i'm wrong

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_and_Soil

show me where any classic literature actively promotes these things as essential to socialism
take your time, dont bother coming back before you've done your task

yes

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It is, americuck.

then fuck off and come back with some literature on it
or pull something out of your ass and write a book
we can wait for you, dont hurry

Tolstoy was hardly a leftist and Lenin wasnt vegetarian you anarco lying shit

I know how you dumbasses, are if I will give you any literature you will just attack it, faggot. Choose your own.
lmgtfy.com/?q=left wing vegetarian literature

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Tolstoy was leftist and Lenin was vegetarian, learn to google before you shitpost, burger.

Lenin ate meat.

again
you illiterate anarkiddy little fuck
show me where any classic literature actively promotes these things as essential to socialism

fucking dipshit nobody namefag can't even fucking pick a source for his faggot lifestyle gay ass shit
honestly at this point just drink bleach you inept useless cunt

it's becouse I have time machine, and I know that if I will post a source, you will attack it, like a fat piece of shit you are.

I didn't mention Einstein becuz I honestly didn't know but that Lenin quote is ripped right out of context you misleading fuck. He was making fun of idiots like you but you would realize that if you ever read Lenin because that sounds nothing like him.
Here's the quote:
"The contradictions in Tolstoy’s works, views, doctrines, in his school, are indeed glaring. On the one hand, we have the great artist, the genius who has not only drawn incomparable pictures of Russian life but has made first-class contributions to world literature. On the other hand we have the landlord obsessed with Christ. On the one hand, the remark ably powerful, forthright and sincere protest against social falsehood and hypocrisy; and on the other, the “Tolstoyan”, i.e., the jaded, hysterical sniveller called the Russian intellectual, who publicly beats his breast and wails: “I am a bad wicked man, but I am practising moral self-perfection; I don’t eat meat any more, I now eat rice cutlets.” On the one hand, merciless criticism of capitalist exploitation, exposure of government outrages, the farcical courts and the state administration, and unmasking of the profound contradictions between the growth of wealth and achievements of civilisation and the growth of poverty, degradation and misery among the working masses. On the other, the crackpot preaching of submission, “resist not evil” with violence. On the one hand, the most sober realism, the tearing away of all and sundry masks; on the other, the preaching of one of the most odious things on earth, namely, religion, the striving to replace officially appointed priests by priests who will serve from moral conviction, i. e., to cultivate the most refined and, therefore, particularly disgusting clericalism."

dude that Lenin quote is literally him making fun of Tolstoyan lifestylists lmao

lmao lenin drank the blood of a million kulaks
where does it say to be a communist/socialist revolutionary you have to be a physically weak middle class white hipster?

fuck back off to reddit you pathetic cancerous twat sorry excuse of an anarchist, like holy fuck how can you even keep this shit up and not nervously tie up a noose over the realization of how much of a fucking joke you are

well i guess Stalin and basically every other socialist figure aren't relevant and deserved to get shot.

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all these edgelord faggots in this thread pretending that "no ethical consumption under capitalism" is an EXCUSE to directly contribute to the harm of workers, who suffer extensively and uniquely in animal agriculture.

you guys are the real left-coms. anything that requires minimal effort, self criticism, and you guys cry about it.

the hurt feelings of moralists doesn't count as an injury.

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I stand corrected, but it still doesn't change that many other leftists are vegetarians


Not, because you are mean, but because you are predictable idiot.

What's wrong with listing people who are at the very least trying to do something related to leftism, as opposed to lazy fuck like you?


I admit I shot myself in the foot.

Who do you think picks your fruit, bucko?
Impoverished farmers in the global south.

Fun fact: The "cruelty free" consumption of quinoa by urban american liberals is the reason the locals in Peru can no longer afford to have it in their diet. Burgerstani "ethical consumption" has caused shortages and droughts before

This is literally the same shit as "you claim to hate capitalism but you use an iphone"

You typing this shit contributes to the unique suffering of workers making computers in 3rd world sweatshops

look at what we're actually writing, nobody is against developing a socialist society to adapt vegetarian production to some extend, depending on the necessity and development of changing production
however it's not essential and lifestylist individual consumption got jack shit to do with forwarding socialism you dimwit chucklefuck

>>>/reddit/ you faglord go and die in that cesspool of mindless diarreah, you'll feel right at home you fucking moron

Not everyone is an american, a lot of food in Europe is Polish and Spanish.

t.americuck.

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whats with pseudo leftists and posting ugly selfies?

Tankies DESTROYED by smart, witty VEGAN anarchist

This shit is no different from the Jordan Peterson all-meat diet. Two sides of the same coin, bourgeois lifestyle fad diets

how is this fag not banned on sight yet
starts shit, can't stand for it and shits himself, what a fucking embarrassment

i am doing something, i'm not being a filthy namefagger who shits up threads with life-stylist rhetoric.
seriously what kind of argument is this? "i know that Lenin wasn't actually a vegatarian but these leftist youtubers are so everyone who disagrees with me is lazy and american!"

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Fine I will have removed the flag and the name if that makes you happy.

still haven't answered this

The majority of practicing Vegans are lifestylists, the political types like you are anti-humanist and reactionary and therefore should be discarded by marxists & anarchists because they ignore the neccessities of the struggle for emancipation of humans through the endeavour for communism, which is actually the first goal in accomodating any of your beliefs since without socialism your political line isn't feasible; what makes you think that capital cares about animals when it doesn't care about humans? The only logical inferrence from this is that you believe that either that the interests of animals should be placed above humans or on some equal footing, which consequentially under capitalism directly impedes the ability of workers to organize by demanding that they secede their demands in favour of beings that exist outside of class society and have no common interest because you fail to understand why exploitation is exploitation in the marxist sense.

now all you have to do is stop posting

You wish.

I will regret this, but China is investing heavily into lab grown meat, because profit driven meat industry is literally destroying the planet
timesofisrael.com/china-makes-massive-investment-in-israeli-lab-meat-technology/

Calling things you don't like life-stylism is life stylism. And I mentioned those people, who are diverse bunch, with FinBol being ☭TANKIE☭ and Mexie with Shaun more of a reformists to show that well-read leftists are vegeterians, and being veterian is not lifestylism, it's not being a brainlet.

...

china isn't exactly a good example of socialism but i said that insofar vegetarianism is beneficial it will be adapted for socialist policies, i take no issue with this
of course there is good reason for it, but it's not a matter of individual consumption under capitalism that comes again just with further exploitation under the guise of progressivism
without socialism as the primary goal vegetarianism is a joke and harmful lifestyleism
there is no inherent need for a socialist society to be vegetarian, it's not a defining characteristic, but it'll eventually be a perk of it being a rational organized society that isn't driven by profit motive

FinBol talked about it. I reckon socialist society will feature vertical farming and lab meat.
mltheory.wordpress.com/2017/07/22/vegetarianism-communism/

sorry for blowing up on you and going too far after my initial (deserved) mocking
just dont go hyperbole like that next time, and i'll try to be more comradely

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Has any socialist country ever promoted vegetarianism/veganism in any way?

Thanks, and please accept my apologies, too.

As finbol explains they did not had the material conditions. Closest to it is is contemporary Chinese turn to green politics.

No


Veganism is inheritly capitalistic petty-bourgeois practice

of course

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A diet based on plants (the current one pretty much everywhere) is a diet for slaves (let alone vegetarianism/veganism). Always was and always will be. It makes you ill. An animal-only diet would easily lead to revolution. That's why the capitalist states attack our natural diet, and promote plant-based diet.

Veganism and vegetarianism are parts of modern bourgeois moralism. Despite the fact that plant-based foods are almost universally cheaper than meat (and animal products to a much lesser extent), shit marketed to vegans is almost always considerably more expensive than its animal-based counterparts. Dry black beans cost like a dollar a pound dry (and swell to three times their size once cooked), how the fuck do they suddenly become more expensive than fucking beef when you blend them and form them into burger patties? Its ridiculous, but the price point is a part of the point. It's a part of the bourgeois desire to be purer and more morally upright than the vulgar unwashed masses, and engaging in overpriced fad diets is a part of fulfilling that urge. Indeed, people who go vegan rarely stop there, they're typically engaged in all sorts of food woo, exercise fads and other performative petit bourgeois activities and practices.

How many of those who preach veganism recommend saving money by eating bread, potatoes or any other cheap staple? I'd be willing to bet they have the same scorn for cheap staple plant foods as they do meat and animal products, and will insist that everyone buy overpriced "health" food instead. It's amazing to me that a diet consisting only of plants can be more expensive than meat-eating, but is often the case if you follow the directives of health-nut vegans.

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i don't understand why people link veganism to capitalism itt. it's not an economic nor social issue. vegans can decide to eat vegan under socialism and communism as well as under liberal capitalism. that being said, i have nothing against vegans, i just enjoy eating meat and i believe avoiding meat entirely might not be a healthy diet for humans, given the structure of the human teeth and metabolism.
and what if veganism is forced? the fact that both liberals and nazis (who i consider equally dumb) are into it makes me wary of it too.

Vegans are 100% right but I don't care enough to change my habits. Besides, the ethical dilemma will be solved by technology and the environmental by ending capitalism.

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Only on leftypol you can get called a moralist, liberal, idpol and a wanker for wanting to be healthier and spending less money on food. Being vegan does not have to mean eating out or buying expensive food, I don't ever eat out, and I just buy basic staple food and cook at home.
I believe that in communism meat wouldn't be eaten as much as it is right now, because it's inefficient. In many places, fields that could've been used for food for people are wasted for food for farm animals, and using them for food for people would give us more food/calories.
Of course there's a lot of idiotic vegans, just like there's a lot of idiots in general. Also not everyone who's vegan or vegetarian talks about it all the time, which may give the illusion that only those loud, and idiotic vegans are vegan.

the practice of non-consumption does not stop the amazon from being razed, so, yeah it's liberal (not to say petit-bourgeois) and even consumerist 'performance'. It is a fact though that there is a 'metabolic rift' in terms of energy (and water) used for production of meat versus plant foods. I have no idea how workers' conditions change. veganism is fine and ok and we shouldn't be burger-cramming burgers but the cattle porkys are just like any other big porky and are perfectly happy if some purists self-select to not engage with their commodities.

Stop using words you don't know the meaning of.

This attitude is the personification of capitalistic commoditization. Meat is murder.

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Veganism is a lot more profitable for businesses. In my country the fast food chains are offering more and more vegan options, and they sell it for the same price as their old meat options, even though the vegetable products are a lot cheaper for the businesses to purchase. Veganism is an unhealthy junk diet.

You cannot eat without killing something.

vegans should eat their b12 and leave us normal people alone

you caring about animals is the result of capitalist alienation

It's inefficient because it's not done properly.

Eating animals is our natural diet, there's no way out of it, it's what our bodies are designed to eat. You are not a ruminant which has multiple stomachs and bacteria in it to help digest the food. You've been brainwashed. The elite bourgeoisie wants you to eat plants, because they know it will make you sick and therefore easy to control. Almost all vegetables humans consume these days are man-made, and fruits as well. Go see what wild carrots look like for example, and they're literally poisonous to us like many other vegetables are in their true form. It's common sense, we're not suppose to eat these foods because in their true form, they are poisonous to us (and other carnivores), and make no mistake this man-made versions are poisonous as well, just very less so.

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From the Manifesto:
>Conservative or Bourgeois Socialism
>To this section belong economists, philanthropists, humanitarians, improvers of the condition of the working class, organisers of charity, members of societies for the prevention of cruelty to animals, temperance fanatics, hole-and-corner reformers of every imaginable kind.
When I first read this I couldn't believe that these trends already existed in the 1840s. Veganism is the environmentalist version of VotingWithYourDollar™. Even if ending animal suffering was an important cause (it isn't) we'd need direct changes in production to put an end to it.

I'm vegan. While I don't think that my diet is affecting literally anything, or that veganism can be achieved under capitalism, I want to try and align my diet and actions with my morals, as I am in a position where being vegan is extremely easy.

He shilled for vegetarianism, but he wasn't a pure one and occasionally did eat meat. Anyway, I think we can all get to a consensus that Hitler was an anti-smoking fanatic and your favorite progressive e-celeb should get lung cancer to own the nazis.

I'm sure that meat consumption used to be much lower in pre-capitalist societies, and that the viewpoint of animals as machines came about with capitalism. In medieval times, animals that wreaked havoc were brought to courts, and declared guilty of crimes.

more like pornoforliberals.mp4 amirite

Farm pigs are also different from wild pigs and so on. Is it better to take a fish full of natural parasites out of the ocean and put the raw thing in your mouth than to take one from a man-made fish farm and put it on the man-made grill?

are you implying vegans don't cook and eat everything raw like a cow? kek
you reek of american retarded logic. useless sack of shit, cultureless americunt.

First worlders should be eating far less meat but theres nothing wrong with eating meat in and of itself. If you wanna be vegan go for it.

A socialist planned economy would use grazing animals in an effective manner to ensure soil conditions are optimal and renewable for agriculture and animals would be slaughtered and sold as meat in order to maintain population

Not the same thing for various reasons. Also there's quality animals available, a bit more expensive, but it's there, that's also part of the thing, they make you eat plants instead of animals, plus the little animals products you eat are shit quality. It's fucked up.

Parasites in fish you can spot them, when you open it. Discard that part or the all fish. Farm fish is shit, they feed it with cereals, soja and etc. They use antibiotics too. Avoid.

And it doesn't matter if you cook it, 90% of it you can't do anything with it. You can't extract the nutrients because of what I said previously, plus cooking eliminates a good amount of it.

Eating plants is retarded.

People that have a plant based diet should watch this: youtube.com/watch?v=c7YUNHugPV8

…were tossed high into air and clubbed to death as a sport.

In ancient times, man saw nature as an adversary, a danger. They sacrificed their firstborns to nature spirits so as not to get murdered by their whims. If you look at our literary history, the further back you go the less descriptions of nature you will find. There are theories that ancient Greeks were color-blind because poets like Homer were so sparse in their descriptions of nature. Conversely, the apex of naturalistic obsessions in art belongs to the peak of the industrial revolution.

Animals and nature overall are our direct competitors for survival and resources, us caring about "animal rights" is a perversion - spaces transformed by alienated labor suffocate us so much we seek refuge in the embrace of what is our mortal enemy! I am a "nature lover" who treks, fishes, mushroom hunts etc quite often but I realize that this is a malaise.

In an advanced socialist society where human-transformed spaces are no longer alienating, we will go back to seeing nature as something adversarial, something that must serve man or be destroyed. If future socialist planning finds that a vegan diet somehow benefits humanity as a whole, then by all means it should be implemented. If there are parts of environment that should be preserved to greater benefit of humanity as a whole, then by all means they should be. But treating the well-being of animals and the environment as valuable BY THEMSELVES, perhaps even at a DETRIMENT to a working man's self-realization, is a truly terrible corruption visited by capitalist ideology and alienation.

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Eh, I dont really think thats fully true. Im not the dude you're responding to but I'm from Nepal and the peasants in the foothills who are living in pre-capitalist societies have lots of poems devoted to the beauty and wonder of nature. Of course they fear it but they also respect nature and love it.

Yeah in civilised Europe/MENA. Apart from that, men always saw themselves as part of nature, not an adversary. How can you be against something that you're part of? Quite stupid.

Or have the arrogance to think you are superior and can dominate it.

The human/nature dichotomy is a spook and the only good thing that comes out of it is art.
The only reasonable way to talk about nature is recognizing that mankind and all its creations are parts of nature. Before the enlightenment many people recognized this: many religions (including christianity) saw man as part of nature/part of creation; Lucretius in his poem "De Rerum Natura" ("On Nature") talked about the human soul; etc.
Bullshit. The first thing that comes to my mind is St. Francis: he loved nature and started an influential religious order; the current pope is named after him. Here is his most famous poem en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canticle_of_the_Sun

An esoteric monk is perhaps not very representative of societal trends and even so; that poem is a far cry from both romantic naturalism and ancient epics that barely mention nature in any capacity. He is literally thanking god for not killing him too hard with the elements, with no mention of animals or plant life.

I understand that in other parts of the world catholic culture is totally neglected, but calling St Francis an "esoteric monk" is extraordinarily reductive. St Francis had and has a huge following. He was made saint shortly after his death. He founded huge catholic orders (in a time when catholicism was dominant in ideology). Also, here's the third phrase of his page on wikipedia:
Also your interpretation of the poem is totally backwards. Instead of centering his poem on God, he centers it on nature, he calls the elements brothers and sisters, he praises the beauty of the sky.
Another prominent example is Buddhism, that is explicitly against the distinction of man from nature.

Nice Gish gallop. But the point stands. People used to bond with animals, and they assumed animals to have personality and reasoning abilities to a degree that is bewildering to most people today. I'm not saying that we should go back to that old wisdom according to which it makes perfect sense to whip the sea as punishment for it misbehaving, I'm just saying that's what it was like, because that's what it was like. Empathy for animals is not something brought about by capitalism.

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the vast majority of vegans think they can ethically consume and only have the most idiotic, shallow critics of what they consider "capitalism" is, which is a stretch since most don't bother getting into politics other than MUH ANIMAL FEELS

seriously, they are always having food fairs where they sell and consume products made by exploited labor, and pat themselves on the back at how great they are for doing so. modern veganism is neo-liberal.

see

What?

Some of the most pretentious cunts on the planet

Nobody actually does this though. They feel a sense of gladness that they aren't causing as much suffering and death as they used to, sure, but they don't think that they're great people. That seems like an absurd strawman you've constructed as a part of justifying why you won't adopt a meatless lifestyle, but it's not really my place to assert that. Most arguments are "muh feels" based, you cannot get feelings out of the axioms you construct your worldview and beliefs upon, you have said axioms precisely because you feel something about another thing.

There might be no consumption under capitalism that is completely ethical but that does not mean to say you can't do as much as reasonably possible to reduce the suffering and death of sentient beings. Making basic lifestyle changes in order to reduce the suffering and death of animals doesn't mean you can't also be concerned with, and take action against, the exploitation of workers, world hunger, and any other issue. Appealing to futility isn't a compelling justification for continuing to do something, especially not something which does have a measurable effect like vegetarianism, which roughly prevents the death of 24+ land animals yearly per individual.