The fall of ML as a theory

Just saw one of Zizek's lecture and I got a bit curious, do you think that the fall of the Berlin Wall was also the fall of ML as a theory? Are we able to reinvent it to apply it to the XXI century?

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Soviet_and_Eastern_Bloc_defectors
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Defectors_to_the_Soviet_Union
qz.com/1342525/chinese-students-increasingly-return-home-after-studying-abroad/
forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/01/22/the-countries-that-trust-their-government-most-and-least-infographic/
straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/better-job-prospects-in-china-bring-more-overseas-students-home
qz.com/1366261/italy-aims-to-slow-immigration-by-helping-china-invest-in-africa/
youtube.com/watch?v=i6FtljguCgk
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Western_Bloc_defectors
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_Western_Bloc_defectors
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_Before_Profit
web.archive.org/web/20171230140751/https://8ch.net/index.html
twitter.com/NSFWRedditImage

Babies first LeftCom
Despite M-L suffering a collapse in the first world on account of the fall of the USSR it still is the most widespread and effective Marxist tendency on a global scale

Sort of… We don't have any good replacements for it yet though. Any future theory should try to build upon ML in my opinion.

what is more successful then

NOT
REAL
BABOONERY

Anybody who thinks that any particular praxis has any use beyond its historical, political and geographical context is woefully misguided. There may be a few general principles that we could discern based on conditions that are common to all socialist struggles, but imo these would be quite broad.

zizek is a fucking retard

probably something Zig Forums dislikes anyway

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there is a difference between Mao using a NEP / New Democracy to help repair a destroyed and developing economy and Deng Reinstating Exploitation of Man by Man

without deng china would have crumbled due to it's isolation and technological backwardness, a reality many here seem to dislike confronting

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Mao's insistence on antagonistic contradiction with the liberal democracies ruined everything. He was so determined to be belligerent with the West that he caused the Sino-Soviet split which isolated them from their biggest trading partner and ally, the Soviet Union.

They would've never been isolated and backwards if Mao hadn't fucked up. If he'd just listened to Khrushchev then they would've been nearly on par with the Soviets by the mid 70s.

The irony is that by insisting on antagonism with the West, they ended up antagonizing Moscow, which made close relations with the US necessary. So they got the worst of every outcome, and that outcome was locked in well before Deng's time.

fair enough, but throughout most of history isolationism never plays our well, and the tight-knit control of the socialist nations of old did'nt give the exact image of confidance and solidarity, what with all those defectors:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Soviet_and_Eastern_Bloc_defectors

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Defectors_to_the_Soviet_Union

Only when peoples across the world can see a communist nation and say "that is a place of plenty I would live in", can communism return to the mainstream without ridicule of starvation and mass slaughter

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Yes but now it is trapped underneath a capitalist dictatorship that taints the name of socialism in the eyes of the Chinese people
Mao's Policy of Limited NEP style Market elements combined with a Planned economy while causing slower growth would have been much better in the long run

Well not many people say that about China even after Dengs capitalist Restoration

This.

Though, even in First World ML is growing now since everyone else had proven themselves incapable of achieving anything during those 30 years.

Soviet Union

I highly doubt that, given post mortem China has gone from using post WW2 weaponry to modern Stealth Aircraft, a feat even the Russians have not exactly achieved.

A first step is recovering the trust in its own people, that I think is already being completed:

qz.com/1342525/chinese-students-increasingly-return-home-after-studying-abroad/

forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/01/22/the-countries-that-trust-their-government-most-and-least-infographic/

straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/better-job-prospects-in-china-bring-more-overseas-students-home

Alright, I will say post WW2 it wasn't that bad, and in core industries like rocket engines they are still very strong, but that does not allow for us to overlook their weaknesses for example in computers, where if I recall correctly they had to copy over american IBM designs just to compete due to lagging behind.

You see the Issue isnt if people think the country is good or how fast tech advances etc

The issue is if it is actually a socialist economy which China hasnt been since the death of Mao and the ascension of Deng

Capitalism v Socialism isnt a Moral issue

people need to have confidence to do things again, nobody is going to attempt socialism if all they remember was general backwardness while the select few capitalist nations parade around with their riches and plentiful goods.

only through unyielding strength and advancement can China slowly re-implement socialist policies, without inciting the world order to re-contain in it's own isolation.

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that… that's not how it works though

Except it literally never intends to do that as the Post-Mao CCP has re-interpreted the term "socialism" to mean a Sino-fied version of the post-ww2 American dream
the only "Socialist" policies i could see the CCP implementing would be Healthcare etc
and even that will likely be built on the backs of 3rd world superprofits

well, they are also seeking to develop the third world, a task essentially no other rich, western nation wants to do.

tell me when you can find another faction influential enough that right wing populists consider helping them to develop a third world nation.

qz.com/1366261/italy-aims-to-slow-immigration-by-helping-china-invest-in-africa/

Tell that to Sri Lanka / Djjibouti / Kenya etc
"Export of capital" AKA Imperialism

Thats a bad thing

I don't know what "ML" is.

whatever man, you come back when any relevant leftist faction can provide the help China does

Literally just google 'ML theory'

I meant China could trade with Soviet Union. I.e. situation would be nowhere near as dire as the one USSR found itself in.

That's not correct. Soviets were second only to US had their own electronics until late 50s (arguably surpassing US in some areas). Their development was scrapped due to Khrushchevite revisionists for political reasons (attempts to introduce OGAS), not because of economic problems.

Either way, being 2-3 years behind is not exactly technological backwardness.

>Soviets were second only to US and had their own perfectly competitive electronics until late 50s (arguably surpassing US in some areas).

Now seriosuly, how did ML fail with the fall of the Berlin Wall? The German reunification was driven by nationalism, not by anti-communism. It's not like Zizek was already super anti-ML to begin with, even during Yugoslavian times, so what a surprise he comes to that conclusion.

Arent most leftist parties vunguard anyway
The fall just proves nomeklatura(a leninist thing tbh) sucks but not communism so..

I'd say the fall was due to socioeconomic issues of the time and capitalist sympathizing leaders. It wouldn't have happened under Lenin or Stalin or even ⛏️rotsky

il te fait vraiment penser

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Orthodox ML created the conditions that created revisionist ML and allowed it to rule with impunity. Revisionism doesn’t just appear out of nowhere and magically assume unaccountable control of an otherwise healthy worker’s state.

Except liberalism is a broad category, ML is a specific branch of socialism. I’m pretty sure that most people would agree that Bonapartism, or whatever you want to call Napoleon’s mode of governance, is obsolete.

What do you think those Military personel were thinking at that moment?

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ML:
Revisionists:
liberals:
hmmm

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Where did the revisionists come from user? How did they get into power? If the Soviet Union was a genuine worker’s state then how were the people not able to remove them?

If the west? Yeah

In other parts of the world, nah.

Material conditions and the culture of the west are more suited for more democratic forms of government after revolution

good questions, if only you wouldn't be the typical anarkiddy asking them rhetorically and read up on those things for a change, you might know the answers to those as they're readily available after decades of antirevisionist analysis, even granted that lots of it is sectarian as hell

since you're so lazy in your postings, i'll simply assert the following as given, if you have any quesitons, look that shit up yourself, i'm not wasting my time on dragging sources to you that you clearly never bothered to read till now and have still no interest in

read any of Stalins speeches during any of the party congresses
they're always there and it couldn't be any other way
this is exactly why the "paranoid stalinist" struggle against them must be upheld
the slander against Stalin and the purge against "Stalinists" that followed went along with a revision of those "paranoid" policies and condemned the purges, distorting them from dismissing useless "comrades" that have shown themself to be idle and incompetent
deception, slander and a coup
there were several attempts, that you have no knowledge about these further proves the point i made in the beginning

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youtube.com/watch?v=i6FtljguCgk

ML is for boons to society

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also, this fallacy
is exactly the shit that numbed the parties ability to fight the subversion

you use this as a cheap rhetorical trick and actually believe this yourself, yet MLs who actively always warned of it, and had a good run while adhering to the principle of staying aware, are at fault for the failure people just like you brought upon socialism

oh the irony

So Stalin killed a bunce of othe leftist for other reasons
But not the revisionist hmmm
How is mongolia this days Molotov?

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bitch take your lazy ass dumbass propaganda and shove it back up your sore loose asshole

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At most the fall of the USSR is the fall of dogmatic ML since there is no longer a political entity setting the rules for thwt is and isnt ML, nor is there an example to point to to say "look! it works! therefore we should emulate it".

With the USSR gone we can look objectively at all its good and bad aspects. Though I wish the USSR still existed instead.

and that's exactly what ML is

tell me a revisionists he successfully purged(for actually planning to bring capitalism and not just following Lenins ideas)?
Also are you claiming so many cpsu members were all rightist?
Did you take your antidepressants today mr.Malenkov ?

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Western_Bloc_defectors

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Shit-taste befitting your shit ideas

i expected too much tbh, even after your last post, and i shouldn't have
seriously you should kill yourself
if i ever told you not to, you're the first one i'll retract this for

I am not even an american you fool(i just like donkeys)
And dr.paradox is cool
i could(and have) avatarfag with many things tbh

Revisionism is everything this days so you are correct also
OK
But they will search my computer and find that you were responsible

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at least there's nothing wrong with this greentext

There's no way you're not trolling nigga, the list of western bloc defectors is bigger lmao, nice dodge by posting a category page instead tho

You have a fair point, but Soviet Union did have thousands of foreign students, but agree that Soviets should not have investments at as much into military, but more into soft and cultural power to rally the third world.

lol

I personally knew a US Army Staff Sgt by the last name of Moses who defected in 1961? or 1962? from I Troop, 3rd Sqdn, 14th Armored Cavalry,in Bad Hersfeld, Germany, because he had been passed over so many times for promotion. 173.19.87.215 (talk) 21:32, 17 February 2014 (UTC)He was returned several days later, the Stasi, ostensibly, having no use for him. If anyone knows anything about this man, please contact me [email protected]. Joe Michaud
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_Western_Bloc_defectors

I’m not an anarchist, nor do I think Stalin was an evil spawn of Satan. But I don’t think he was a gud boi either, and he made some clear mistakes.

Fair enough.

That doesn’t answer my question. I didn’t ask if people attempted to unseat Cornman and his ilk, I asked why they were unable to do so. Presumably you consider the USSR under Stalin to be socialist, and thus a genuine worker’s democracy. So would you also say that after Stalin’s death this democracy was destroyed or undermined by revisionists, and that the revisionists ruled through undemocratic and repressive means?

We'll there was Bukharin for starters who was basically Proto-Deng

Bukharin was the only pure Leninist(that my posts hints)
Also he was killed for being a crypto-trot-fash-nazi-otaku-gay-alien

umm,,,, sorry sweatie but it's called the SPD

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Zizek isn’t leftcom you fucking brainlet

Could anyone please share more information and sources about emigration from West to East?

...

How is Zizek not Leftcom? I doesn't make *literally* the same arguments as Leftcoms but most stuff Zizek said you'll hear from Leftcoms especially the psychoanalytical bullshit.

he*

He Writes off every Socialist experiment using various Fancified ways of claiming "not real Socialism!!!"
That and straight up dumb shit liking claiming people who like Fidel Castro are Afraid of Women and Castration or some shit

...

You dont seem to get what that means

come back when you have the balls to put on a flag and stand for something, faggot

Lets be honest 80% KKE voters dont know who Marx is(t.greek)
And all other parties in the west are leftcom or demsoc

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Well Ireland has trots elected in its Parliament.

F

Tbf they're pretty based.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_Before_Profit

Because him and leftcoms don’t even share the same ontological and epistemological foundation, and incorporating psychoanalysis into it certainly doesn’t make you a leftcom.

My god lmao, you’ve never even read and understood him, huh brainlet?

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Tbh clinging to a tendency that evolved in a completely different time and place and under conditions that no longer exist is pretty memes. A lot of ML principles still apply today, but obviously many don’t.

Such as?

ML is always to be applied to the concrete conditions of a nation
it'd look very different in any western imperialist one than its adaption to an undeveloped one like tsarist russia
the closest thing is the DDR

Fuck off petty booj anarchoscum.

Worship of the state?

Wtf.

Kys right now.

That's obviously worship of the state.

inb4 the people's secret police was good all along

As well as the people's police, and the people's dictatorship of the proletariat and high tales of Stalin

Wont even address the tautology, but what you even babbling about? When did ML's worship the state? They recognize it as a necessary institution to resist capitalist counter-revolution and to transition to communism.

This fucking meme again
State is a means, not an end.

can't tell if bait or actual retarded anarkiddie

But that's exactly worshiping the state.

The state, or rather the leadership of the state is basically immune to criticism, and you will call any dissidents of the holy and necessary state to be traitor nazis.

Also, the people's dictatorship of the proletariat is ironic.

The proles own jackshit, it's the dictatorship of Stalin and his goons.

Zig Forums is kinda unmoderated and has a lot of retards and Zig Forumsyps spamming the board up, so i imagine people started posting here again

most people on leftpol post on leftypol bro

Name me one anarchist revolution that didn't eliminate dissidents.

If that was true, then this board wouldn't have lost 200 ISPs
web.archive.org/web/20171230140751/https://8ch.net/index.html

This so much. God why is Sabo Cat more of an actual fucking Marxist than 80% of you goddamn troglodytes.