Was gonna make a USSR general, but it's better to expand a little.
Try and go beyond sharing aesthetic pics and post more informative stuff.
Warsaw Pact General
William Cook
Other urls found in this thread:
data.worldbank.org
bbc.com
soviethistory.msu.edu
youtube.com
voencomuezd.livejournal.com
kara-murza.ru
workers.org
sosinet.hu
en.m.wikipedia.org
jstor.org
sourcebooks.fordham.edu
faz.net
shurigin.livejournal.com
nsarchive2.gwu.edu
mek.oszk.hu
espressostalinist.files.wordpress.com
rev.hu
en.wikipedia.org
quora.com
english.battlefield.ru
archive.fo
youtube.com
feweek.co.uk
prolecenter.wordpress.com
counterpunch.org
drive.google.com
gowans.wordpress.com
englishrussia.com
englishrussia.com
twitter.com
David Hall
A subject I wanted to start off with is the many ways in which things declined after the collapse of the soviet union. One can find this in every detail.
For example, Aeroflot used to be the largest airliner in the world with a fleet of 3000 planes. Now it has like 300, and the biggest current airline has like 1000. Passengers carried decreased by more than 80% during the 90s and it's still lower than it used to be before the collapse. Russians are flying less often than 30 years ago.
data.worldbank.org
Josiah Reyes
Another common myth is that capitalism solved soviet consumer goods shortages. Whatever shortages there actually were before 1989, it only got worse afterwards. The minister of economy under Yeltsin claims they ended consumer goods shortages in the following video. What basically happened is that light industry (that is to say, consumer goods) dropped like 80%, they imported everything and called it a day. Shops were full cause no one could afford it anymore.
bbc.com
Carter Thomas
This is why Zig Forums Anarchists are unironically based & redpilled, and I'm not even a ☭TANKIE☭. Keep up the good work lad, polite sage because I'm not contributing.
Liam Collins
Remigijus Naucas, a balt?
Mason Myers
pictures of the RSR under Ceaușescu
third attempt at posting, 8ch is being a bitch
Angel Campbell
cont.
the Bucharest Metro pictured was heavily renovated under socialism (around 70% of the railway was constructed from 1979 until the fall of the eastern bloc).
Nathan Green
final post
some bonus military stuff (mostly Armata Populară Română, along with some Gărzile Patriotice).
James Barnes
Adam Richardson
This is something that I've always wondered about but could all (or some) countries in the Warsaw Pact, excluding the USSR, be considered puppet states, or did they have enough autonomy to be considered fully sovereign nations?
Luis Bailey
Yes.
Joseph Perez
You could make the argument that the NATO states had less autonomy. Under Gorbachev with the Sinatra doctrine, the USSR practically abandoned their eastern bloc allies.
Cameron Ward
they weren't puppet states. the most the USSR got involved in other socialist countries was with economic aid, and each individual state ran in their own unique ways (Poland not fully collectivising, Romania' s "national communism", the DDRs different economic plans, etc.)
as for things like the Soviet military it usually comes down to two things, those being the presence of Soviet troops in other states and physically using the military to intervene in the affairs of other countries within the Warsaw Pact.
military presence was something that all the Warsaw Pact states participated in, and was purely done in case of war which was a very big threat during those times (believe it or not). the Soviets of course having the largest military presence, since they were pretty much the military powerhouse in the socialist sphere and would stand the best chance against NATO.
as for military intervention, this was usually only done when the Soviets perceived serious threats to socialism, such as Dubček making socdem reforms to Czechoslovakia, and political instability in Afghanistan.
once Gorbachev came to power the USSR (not in an attempt to give other states "more freedom", but due to his non-intervention policies) pretty much left the Warsaw Pact to fight for itself in the late-80s,
Easton Wright
I don't wanna take too much credit but it used to be that most anarchists had very vulgar and unnuanced takes on 20th century socialism and I kinda started going against the grain. But it's probably a bottleneck effect since there's not many anarchists around anymore.
Christian Russell
What’s your view on the Hungarian Uprising of 1956? While it seems like it had some liberal/reactionary elements, it appears that the bulk of their demands were for greater political freedoms and a more open an genuine worker’s democracy, and weren’t fundamentally anti-socialist in nature. I can see how in the context of the Cold War, the Soviets would fear that they would fall into the western sphere and that they thought it better to intervene than risk that, but do you think their actions were justified?
Levi Perez
aha they still do (go and watch that latest LSR video lmao), although the anarchists on here have always been a cut above the rest, even when it was anarchist dominated.
Xavier Russell
The Hungarian 'revolution' of 1956 was almost completely of reactionary origin. Stating that "they wanted" vague things like "greater political freedom" is obtuse, its the fallacious argument the "loving and democratic" West makes to claim the soviets were "muh evul neo-nazis". The majority of the Hungarian conflict at the time was between Hungarians rather than the soviets, who only got involved when the Hungarian government called them in to stop the bloody civil war erupting in the streets.
Matthew Howard
The leaders of the revolt Nagy and Maleter were a SocialDemocrat that wanted to implement Bougie elections and a Literal Horthyist general that escaped the purges respectively
I can find little to no evidence of the "Mass workers councils" actually exisiting
And accounts from Yuri Andropov who was in Hungary at the time on a diplomatic mission recount the literal lynching from Lamposts of Jews communists people with a Soviet passport people that worked at the soviet embassy in Budapest people not wanting to take part in the uprising diehard supporters of the goverment workers refusing to strike etc
Even if Nagy himself wasn't a Counter-Rev much like Dubcek and Gorbs his reforms would have inevitably led to one
Kevin Brown
Meant most anarchists here ofcourse. Never watched LSR and I don't think anyone here does so unironically.
Aaron Scott
If the Soviets really had complete control over their Warsaw pact Allies Individuals Like Kadar and Ceausescu would not have been tolerated so long (Until Gorbs) and if the control over these governments was as complete as made out then individuals such as Dubcek would have been stopped from attaining power lonngn before they came in reach of it
Juan Campbell
Are you implying that the actual demands and aims of the revolution are irrelevant in determining its character?
Hungary was already a socialist country at the time, so how would their elections have been bourgeois?
There are numerous eyewitness accounts and historical records of this. Here is a statement issued by the Miskolc Soviet on October 25th
soviethistory.msu.edu
Of course why anybody would fabricate the existence of such councils making such demands is beyond me. It certainly wouldn’t be in the interests of liberals or westerners to paint the uprising as an anti-revisionist socialist revolution.
If you really believe that then what you are effectively saying that workers, if given democratic freedoms and freedom of expression, will reject socialism. Besides, that’s pure speculation. What can be said for sure is that the demands of the revolutionaries were entirely consistent with the aims of socialism, and cracking down on them with force showed that the Soviets cared more about their military hegemony in Hungary than about the interests or freedom of the workers.
Cooper Gutierrez
some photos of the Soviet Young Pioneer camp "Артек" (Artek)
Bentley Ross
cont.
Brayden Reyes
final post
Michael James
that's really cool
i remember watching a video on this on youtube, it was a bit longer and showed quite a bit of the camp, but for some reason looking it up now that video seems gone
or i'm just shit at looking
Eli Johnson
nevermind just adding 19 to the search gave a few years as a suggestion and i watched some pre-war video on it
really nice:
youtube.com
Anthony Richardson
Fuck you too USSR.
Ah, the useless subsidised monopolist got BTFO by the free market.
Are empty shelves a better alternative?
Only scum of the world communists would make a national holiday resort on a pebbled beach. Want to take a vacation somwhere else? Too bad comerade, the resorts are planned acording to factories and random beurocrats desires. I hate USSR with the full might of a razor sharp seashell stuck vertically inbetween pebbles on the Crimean shore.
Nicholas Ortiz
didn't notice before
but this is neat
japan stole it!
Jayden Collins
Vague cries for "freedom" is not an actual demand. The very link you sent demonstrates this well, with statements asking for the removal of corruption, but no detail as to what corruption or how with only one exact reference to Mihaly Farkas.
In 1956 Khruschev's thaw resulted in many, MANY people being released from jail early, including many neo-nazis and other political scum who were itching to stir up trouble. They had the support of the former-bourgeoisie who had lost land during the socialization of the country after 1945. Hungary was especially high in such people since it was an ally of the Nazis in WW-2 and many people actively took part in the holocaust. Its main proponents
Why are basically 100% of all the documents linking Katyn to the NKVD frauds? Why does any fabrication exist? To subvert. It is a well known fact that the USA and NATO were looking for any opportunity to de-stabilize the Warsaw pact, and exerted socio-economic pressure to that end.
The author this citation is from was Melvin Jonah Lasky an American journalist, and member of the anti-Communist left. He founded the German journal Der Monat in 1948 and, from 1958 to 1991, edited Encounter, one of many journals revealed to have been secretly funded by the CIA through the Congress for Cultural Freedom. Sounds like a real trustworthy source. Maybe you'd like to read something other than comfy psuedo-leftist crap?
voencomuezd.livejournal.com
The Truth about Hungary: facts and eyewitness accounts by A Belokon and V Totstikov
kara-murza.ru
workers.org
sosinet.hu
So much salt I could make a new sea with this id I were a god.
Owen Miller
Except they did have actual demands.
en.m.wikipedia.org
And what, you think that porkies use bourgeois magic to steal and rig any election from which they are not explicitly excluded? Of course not, they use specific mechanisms to influence the outcome such as bourgeois overrepresentation in politics, control of media, campaign donations, lobbyists, etc. Whatever bourgeois elements remained in the country clearly didn’t have access to capital or economic power necessary to do any of these things, and so would remain a marginalized minority. If socialism still lost in this context, then that’s a major indictment of the Hungarian socialist government, since a socialist government that fails to win the support of the working class is clearly incompetent and fundamentally flawed.
So what’s the point of arguing with you if you will dismiss literally any evidence that contradicts your position as false? Even one of the sources you posted admitted the existence of worker’s councils. Saying that there were reactionary elements among them may be true, but saying that they didn’t exist is idiotic. I’m not so naive to think that there weren’t liberals and even fascists among be rebels, but it very clearly had a proletarian and to a significant degree socialist character, and this reflected in their demands.
Brody Hill
This isn't YouTube, screeching about breadlines doesn't work here, especially when it's long since been confirmed that in modern times, shortages under leftist governments are usually artificial.
Thomas Rogers
>>>Zig Forums with this bullshit.
This is exactly what I mean by being obtuse. Your logic ignores the fact that systems are not perfect and that the bourgeoisie were not, in fact, banned from elections they were demoted to being ordinary proletarians without private property or otherwise owning large amounts of wealth through sheer inheritance. Literally 1991 was canceled in Hungary of 1956 because there were enough class-conscious proletarians who were ready to fight to stop this disorder. You literally point out the fact that they used subversion, yet attempt to shoe in that they apparently;
Except that there was active pressure from the West, an influx of newly freed reactionaries and a naiive youth who were appealed to through propaganda. Or do you think things like Radio Free Europe did not reach people?
You presented 1 fucking link. It wasn't even a photo-copy of the original document, just a dubious citation printed in the book of a man well known for being a CIA funded shill and anti-communist. Then you cite me fucking WIKIPEDIA of all trash, (and phone posted no less), and you have the gall to say this?
You have most likely read none of my links, despite the fact that they are 10x the amount of information you have provided. And people wonder why anarchists are so hated, for contrived bullshit like this.
I wasn't the one that denied them I simply explained the point.
This again; do you understand what manipulation means? This is like saying that Pol-pot was also socialist in character even though he had the CIA backing him.
Levi Nelson
Not quite stole, the Japanese and South Koreans carefully studied the soviet education system and planned economy and used that to Great Effect. It's why Japan is a leader in education systems by learning from and maintaining the old efficient and neat stuff of soviet schools.
Nathan Johnson
The article has its own sources m8.
sourcebooks.fordham.edu
And thus they were stripped of their ability to exercise hegemony as the would under normal circumstances, meaning that the will of the proletarian majority should easily be able to defeat them.
So in other words you think that the Hungarian workers were too stupid to make the right decision, and that socialism had to be imposed on them regardless of their consent? As I said earlier, any socialist government that is incapable of winning the support of the working class is not deserving of the name, and doesn’t deserve to govern. Furthermore it’s impossible for socialism to be imposed on the people from above, it must be carried out by the democratic will of the workers, anything else is doomed to fail. Also, given the conditions at the time, it’s highly likely that the communist dominated coalition government would have won anyway. It’s obvious from the demands of the rebels that their concern wasn’t abolishing socialism, rather greater political and democratic freedoms as well as the assurance of national sovereignty.
It should probably occur to you that the only way your position makes any sense is if you assume that none of the demands the rebels were making were what they actually wanted, but were just cover for a secret reactionary agenda. Unless you have proof that Nagy’s government was planning to abolish socialism or joining NATO, or proof that the demands werent genuine, you have no evidence to suggest that the uprising was reactionary in nature. Alternatively, you could try to argue that the demands themselves were reactionary, however nobody in the thread seems to have even bothered to read them.
Robert Morgan
Most of which are tertiary or secondary in and of themselves or are improperly cited. post the actual links like you just did.
Your argumentation would mean Hitler would never come to power. Charisma, and convincing, sweet words of imaginary 'freedoms' are more powerful than you think.
And they did, by calling upon their allies to put an end to the brewing civil war before it got too far.
Naiivety and stupidity is not the same thing, don't put words in my mouth.
Does the words ALLIES TO NAZI GERMANY mean anything to you? Socialism in Hungary was like a tree growing from cement, you needed cracks in the reactionary class-collaborationist society of Hungary to build anything, but the cement is still there and still exerts pressure even as it is shunted aside.
Except that the majority didn't support the bloody coup you nincompoop. As I have repeated, the majority of the Hungarian conflict was internal, between proles, one side being for socialism and the other being deluded by false promises of freedom under their "new socialism". You really expect porkies, insidious as they are, to be open in what they were doing? They tried that in 1939, didn't fucking work.
this is giving me a headache as to its utter idealism and black and white view on things.
Do you want to understand how a capitalist functions? Simple, they tell you what you wnat to hear so that you want it, even if you don't need it, or even if it is false. This same scenario occurred in 1968, where reactionary intellectuals, working with various political outcasts began actively infecting the government and the social environment and promoting false, shallow idealisms about freedom and democracy and how we're all oppressed. This is the sheer beauty of propaganda, it is a Big Lie, but with grains of truth to validate it in the eyes of an ordinary and mostly ignorant prole, because even the most well-read man will not know everything.
Oh great this shit again, fucking ankids.
One of their principle leaders was a literal nazi and many of the 'leaders' fled to the West who were already waiting for them and were greeted as martyrs… I wonder why the capitalists in the West were so enthusiastic to greet these "tru socialists".
I did, and I pointed out that they are vague and follow along the same old "more freedom, less corruption" bullshit that is literally one of the first protest cards the West would pull against the USSR at the hint of civil unrest.
Ethno-nationalism is not a good thing, coming from an anarchist this is true irony.
If you want my "proofs" actually read what I sent in detail and do some fucking research outside your own personal cherry-pickings.
The USA and NATO were looking and acting in Eastern Europe, East-Germany, Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania etc. were all targets because they were not originally part of the USSR or otherwise had histories of anti-communist sentiment prior to the Warsaw-pact being formed. Hungary was no exception.
East Germany formed the Berlin Wall BECAUSE of these provocations, including bombings of airports:
faz.net
The West has made no bones about its aims in the East and only hides the critical information needed to stop it, or unilaterally condemn it. Now that the USSR is gone, they do the latter openly as well.
“In order to encourage the establishment of governments that have been elected freely in the “satellites” as a means of disorganization, and not as an end in itself, you should be ready in any case, covertly and under the appropriate guidance to help the nationalists in every way in which independence from the Soviet domination is possible and where the consistency of the US and the “free world” will not be endangered by it." -(See. National Security Council Report NSC 5608/1,” US Policy towards the Soviet Satellites in Eastern Europe “, July 18, 1956 ).
Asher Collins
Lmao do you think Hitler was democratically elected? He relied on SA violence and intimidation to repress opposition parties and even then never got a majority of the vote, then proceeded to terrorize the opposition into practical non-existence.
So then you don't trust the workers to govern themselves.
Do you have a source that shows the majority supported the status quo and opposed Nagy's government?
In practical terms they produce the same result, mainly that you dont trust the working class to govern itself.
Except repression wasn't limited to actual reactionaries, ie people demanding an end to socialism in Hungary. It was used against anybody who took a different line from the government, regardless of whether or not they wanted socialism. Revolutionary terror is a key tool that we shouldnt shy away from, but to use it against fellow socialists and supporters of the revolutionary movement is tantamount to treason.
If this is true then you should be able to provide a single shred of evidence (in a language I can actually read) that the leading elements of the uprising had intentions different than those they expressed in their demands.
If you think that the right to freedom of expression, the right to freedom of political organization within the confines of socialism, and the right for workers to freely and independently organize are "shallow idealisms" instead of critical features of a genuine socialist society then you are deluded. You clearly care nothing for the actual ability of the working class to govern itself through proletarian democracy.
Many more of them had links to the Hungarian Soviet Republic of 1919 and the anti-fascist resistance in the country. Are you seriously going to tell me that these people were closet reactionaries?
Then you're illiterate, because the demands were far more concrete and specific than that. They specifically called for the holding of elections both within the communist party and to the national legislature, a withdrawal of the Soviet occupation forces, and an end to state repression of opposition parties.
I'm not an anarchist, and there's a difference between ethnonationalism and calls for an end to a foreign military occupation and the establishment of equal bilateral foreign relations.
Nobody is denying that the west had predatory, subversive aims against the Soviet Union and its allies in Europe, however that fact in and of itself does not prove that the uprising in Hungary was the product of those efforts. If you want me to read your links then post sources in English.
Justin Diaz
Reddit spacing… what cancer… oh well lets get going:
Exactly my point, Hitler rammed dthrough the "democratic elections" through coercion and charisma, the NSDAP was a minority party yet made a massive leap into power by riding the wave of political events. The same thing applies here. Stalin had died, Khruschev began his liberalization of the Warsaw pact and to do so attacked Stalin while releasing political enemies of socialism. These same enemies could now go home and, supported by Khruschev's claims, spread the stories of the oppreshun under de evul russkies and their communism, and use that street-cred to ride the waves of instability into power, whether it be through coup or other means.
Fallacious over-simplification. The workers don't magically become all-knowing competent beings after the revolution, in the USSR it took over 2 decades to get remote, islamic regions of the country to start becoming civilized and stop following Sharia law, and thus stop things like Burkha's and stoning women. Inb4 "muh civilized Europe" the Hungarians have a long and rich history of ethno-nationalism, racism and other reactionary ideals and that does not vanish within a decade. Workers are people, people are not infallible, therefore any worker can be manipulated, we only have to look at the USA and its millions of anti-communist "leftists". Not every person is equal in ability and socialism has never denied that, not everyone has the ability to make logical, sound decisions. Your idealistic accusation is like saying that chronic late stage schizophrenics should be allowed to make decisions, and that if you think otherwise, you think they're subhuman.
Do you have a source that Nagy was all that popular? The very workers decree you sent says nothing for the support of Nagy either. Not to mention that populist popularity =/= workers support.
Yes, but their origins are vastly different. This is like saying 2+2 and 400/100 are the same thing, sure they both = 4, but they're different equations.
Accusations and slander as usual.
And here we go again. In the USSR and its neighboring states, repressions affected less than 5% of the population as according to Victor Zemskov. To say that all these repressed people or that most were innocent is bullshit, and lacks evidence of such accusation.
Uhh, no. This is Eastern Europe, not Mao's China, you are outright stating western mass-media cliches.
Fellow socialists my arse, if Nagy is a socialist, so is Bernie Sanders. Suppressing counter-revolutionaries is the duty of the working class, just because they claimed that they were for socialism does not make them so. And just because 1 or 2 workers councils did not outright denounce socialism does not deny the fact that among said 'socialists' were people who happily worked for the Nazis and who did the same shit Dubcek did, by claiming to have this magic new socialism that will make all the issues currently at hand go away, despite the fact that the issues in Hungary at the time were largely the result of the massive growth after the transition to socialism going so fast that there was an expected lag afterwards. The majority of actions that took place in Hungary was between the Hungarians themselves, the USSR basically was on standby and was there to prevent things from boiling over into an open civil war.
1) Translation thread, it exists, post a request
2) google translate
3) any other site translation program you lazy fuck
Easton Young
I did, your laziness is not an argument
I'll give an example, since you are so adamant because spoon-feeding is SO much
fun.
Bela Kiraly: Supporter of the pro-Nazi Hungarian regime before liberation by the Soviets, who fought in the war and presided for at least a month over the city Koszeg, known for its Jewish concentration camp. After the war, he received a pardon from Stalin and was even allowed to enter the Communist Party of the country. Comrade Stalin even gave him a post in the army. But in 1956 the ever-opportunistic worm decided that wasn't enough. However, having been stopped he led, humiliated and hated, westward. The former Nazi, former Communist and ex-fascist became a supporter of Western regimes. After 1991, this coward, Nazi turncoat, hypocrite and a traitor, returned to Hungary, where he was proclaimed a”hero” and was appointed the leader of the celebration of the rebellion committee. And while the fascist thugs been immersed in the privileges and luxuries of the new Nazi era, we see the people suffer renazistificação. People were being persecuted by the color of their clothes (to wear a red star or hammer and sickle is enough to send someone to prison) while the local CP suffers persecution and threats of being banned.
The traitor Imre Nagy is a main culprit, who also led this bloody coup attempt in the name of socialism. This man is treated as a hero today by the new (anti-communist and highly nationalist) Hungarian regime. They even built a statue of commemoration to him. Why would a regime that openly opposes communism would support a “communist” as he? However, the lies of the regime do not end here. They took a further step with a direct attack on historical truth. The fascist rebellion was called ”democratic”. The events that prove their fascist nature were silenced and it is omitted that the leaders of this "democratic fight" were in fact Nazis who led the rebellion, who were all supporters of the Hungarian regime that led the country into World War II. They are the same ones who fled to the West for fear of being humiliated by the communists. They are the rich, bourgeois landowners looking to get back their private property and wealth.
I happen to know a man of Hungarian origin who participated in the 1956 events. He tells me that much of that revolution was not so much Soviet soldiers killing Hungarians but Hungarians killing each other (hardliner communists vs Nagy supporters). The Hungarian Revolution was nothing more than a foreign provocation, as had been done in Iran, Guatemala, Chile, Iraq, South Korea, Malaysia etc.
Soon, it became clear that none of the ruined nations of East Europe could hope for reconstruction loans from Washington, unless they remade their governments to suit the USA. To some extent they were willing to do this. Bulgaria changed its cabinet at Washington’s order and postponed an election when America protested its form. All of the East European nations hoped for American loans and were willing to make adjustments. They offered industrial concessions to foreign capital; they were ready to postpone socialism, as Lenin did in the days of NEP. Nor did Moscow object to this; Moscow was not at all anxious to take on the economic problems of East Europe, in addition to her own. If these lands could get American loans by concessions to capitalism, Moscow was not disposed to interfere. In the first years after victory– Moscow handled affairs in East Europe with a loose hand. Americans supposed the arriving Red Army would at once “sovietize” these eastern nations, nationalize industry, collective farms. American correspondents were amazed to discover that the Red Army did not even stop King Michael’s jailing of Communists; they called it Romania’s affair. When I was in Poland in 1945, it was “treason” to urge collective farming, lest this alienate the peasant. Moscow intended to have “friendly nations” on her border but many of Moscow’s acts in 1945-46–the long tolerance of King Michael’s brutally reactionary regime in Romania, the lack of Russian support to Communists fighting in Greece, the calling off of Bulgarian elections because of an American protest, the acceptance of three Poles from London into the Warsaw cabinet–indicated that Stalin would make many concessions in East Europe to keep his wartime friendship with Britain and the United States.
Strong, Anna Louise. The Stalin Era. New York: Mainstream, 1956, p. 108
Ryan Barnes
Shane Mage (an anti-soviet), “What a cruel, cynical joke of history this seems to be! The Hungarian revolution is hailed lyrically by the rulers of the ‘West,’ the worst enemies of socialism and of the Russian revolution. The men who surrounded the infant Soviet Republic with a ‘cordon sanitaire’ of steel and fire, who hailed Hitler and Mussolini as bulwarks against Bolshevism, who stood by with smiling ‘neutrality’ while Franco murdered freedom in Spain, whose hands are still stained by the crimes of Algeria, Suez, Guatemala—the ‘Free’ world gleefully hands its poisoned bouquets to the freedom fighters of Hungary.” —“The Meaning of Two Revolutions” (reprinted in the 1959 Young Socialist Forum pamphlet, The Hungarian Revolution)
They are because in and of themselves they mean nothing. This is literally the same shill capitalist argument used by Porkies, your repetition of it is very suspicious.
Freedom of expression? What about freedom to live and not risk having your shop blown up because some CIA chill wants to fuck with the government? What exactly were they lacking? The freedom to print porn? The freedom to print fascist and revisionist propaganda? Freedom to be libertines? Because that's where that leads.
shurigin.livejournal.com
Sure, the Hungarian Soviet Republic of 1919 was not essentially the socialist system you are thinking of. They had naz-bol tendencies for one thing.
No, no they weren't you need to learn to read into things. Bold, glaring statements and demands like those are surface level to anyone who does more than read facebook rants. Those demands are on par with, "if we get rid of Trump that'll solve all the issues"
Again, that is very vague, why would those elections matter at all? If they were so adamant a proper set of referendums would be in order to call for said re-elections.
There you go, shallow as hell. A selfish desire to be "indiependint" in spite of the fact that said "occupational forces" were there to ward off a potential NATO invasion, not to mention prevent the reactionary uprising the occurred from blowing out of proportion.
Then why post with an anarchist flag? And spout anarchist talking points for that matter?
Yes there is, and that difference clearly shows that said calls were nationalist tripe.
See herein lies the problem do you genuinely think that said bi-lateral relations would be perfectly civil and there would be no subversion… Inb4 "muh proof" there is no proof of this exactly with Hungary because the USSR stopped it before it began. However experiences in Guatemala, Chile and Iran as well as the other nations I mentioned demonstrate that it was valid to distrust such ideas.
Throughout the late 1940s the USSR made it a public and open policy that the Eastern European nations had their own right to self-determination, and most chose socialism, Austria for example did not, and became part of NATO despite being liberated by the USSR in 1945. Then the Warsaw Pact formed, and suddenly, out of the blue, in 1956 we have riots in Hungary over things that would normally only require a referendum or formal complaint yet instead it blew into a full-blown coup attempt… why? Why would that happen? Czechoslovakia, reactionary beginnings as it was, had far more preluding its events, and there was fault in the Party as there was in the people, but in Hungary such faults were at best the issues of local-implementation, rather than systemic flaw…
just translate it with google, stop being lazy. Not everything even has english sources, such as Soviet Cybernetics
Luis Cox
128. The above is a summary of views put forward by official spokesmen for the Governments of the USSR and of Mr. Kádár. Those Governments have maintained that the Hungarian uprising was planned well in advance, carefully thought out and directed during the fighting by leaders supplied or guided from abroad and by foreign broadcasting stations. The Committee gave thorough consideration to the possibility that the up rising may have been planned in advance, but it could find no evidence to justify any such hypothesis. The Committee is convinced that the demonstrators on 23 October had at first no thought of violence. When arms were obtained by the insurgents, they were almost always seized by workers from depots known to them or were voluntarily handed over by Hungarian troops, by the regular Hungarian police - not the ÁVH - and even, in some cases, by Russian troops themselves.
129. After its study of all the facts, the Committee has no doubt that the Hungarian uprising was not only nation-wide, but also spontaneous in character. The Committee was meticulous in its questioning on this point and sought to discover in various ways the possibility of advance preparation. But the way in which great numbers of people, who could not possibly have shared secret orders in advance, organized themselves to press their demands and to fight the Soviet troops seems to the Committee to bear the hallmark of improvisation. Their efforts collapsed because of the Soviet armed intervention and because no support was forthcoming for them from abroad. The thesis which alleges that the uprising owed its origin to such support from abroad did not survive the examination to which the Committee subjected it.
The Committee has, indeed, noted that several times during the last week of October and the first days of November prominent personalities drew attention to the need to be on the alert for signs of counter-revolution.(15) On 2 November, Gyula Kelemen, the Secretary- General of the Social Democratic Party, wrote: “Let our peasant members unite their forces to frustrate all attempts to restore the large estates.”(16) While the Committee has noted this and similar warnings, it feels that there was never, at any time a serious danger of counterrevolution in Hungary. The very few dispossessed land owners still living in that country exercised no influence either with the leaders or with the rank and file of those who took part in the uprising. No suggestion was entertained to return the estates to the former landowners or to undo the nationalization of Hungarian industry. Even aristocratic landowners such as Prince Pál Eszterházy repudiated any such intention, while Cardinal Mindszenty personally told one witness early in November that he had no intention of claiming the return of the great Church estates, but was proposing to ask for the reopening of Catholic schools. “Let no one dream”, said Béla Kovács, leader of the Smallholders’ Party, “of the old world returning: the
world of the counts, the bankers and the capitalists is gone forever.”(17)
In its extensive examination of developments between 23 October and 4 November, the Committee found no evidence whatsoever to suggest that any political personality associated with the pre-war régime exerted the slightest influence on events. At no time was there a demand for any such personality to be included in the new Government. Moreover, it is a point of interest that the question of a counter-revolution seems not to have been raised by the Soviet authorities during their negotiations with the Government of Mr. Nagy. The Government which he was forming in the early days of November was a coalition composed of the parties included in the Hungarian National Independence Front of 1945. The parties composing this Independence Front had been sanctioned by the Allied Control Commission, on which the Government of the USSR was represented.
Isaiah Nguyen
Are you trying to make me laugh?
James Lee
Forgot PDF. Pages 43-46
Samuel Lee
M8 all your links are fucking blog sites. Are you seriously going to go after the veracity of my sources with that shit?
Ian Ward
I don't need your link I've read that U report long ago
Because pdfs don't translate on Google translate well, do they
He says having only posted the UN report after I pointed out that Wikipedia is garbage.
I know that report fairly well and its bullshit, all the "witnesses" were part of the coup attempt or otherwise linked to it. Not a single main witness from the other side, not a single damn testimony, just piles upon piles of "muh suppression". The UN was under the thumb of the USA, and the USSR's power was minimal, especially as it was viewed as a part of the events and therefore was largely excluded from the committee. Considering how the UN ignored and continues to ignore multiple violations and other such things done by the USA, ISrael and Saudia Arabia, I have no faith in its objectivity in martial matters.
Owen Foster
It's also worth noting that even the sources you posted make no mention of counter-revolutionary or anti-socialist demands, by any of the parties in Nagy's government or even by any of the worker's councils or prominent leaders of the rebels. Going over them we can identify a few things that may be construed as counter revolutionary, but most are symbolic at most, like the removal of socialist symbols from public view. The lynching of members of the communist party could be interpreted either way, since it was clearly aimed at people with prominent links to Rakosi's government and the AVO. That's hardly the smoking gun of counter revolution, especially when you consider that similar things happened during the cultural revolution in China. In other words, your sources provide no definite evidence of counter-revolutionary intention among the rebels, or at least not among enough of them to outweigh the pro-socialist and pro-democratic elements.
It literally cites the official government and Soviet interpretations of the case, and finds them to be unsupported.
Right and I guess ☭TANKIE☭ blogs are the only truly neutral sources lmao.
Isaiah Davis
>kara-murza.ru
This is a blog site? Kara Murza is a well known historian and this is an online version of his book.
>kara-murza.ru
Literally cites multiple primary sources at the bottom of that post
Mason Bennett
Yeah that's not just "construed" as counter-revolutionary. A symbol is not just an object, it has meaning, and the removal of a symbol is the demeaning of a symbol.
No, no it couldn't. This wasn't angry parents or friends taking revenge, this was just murder and hatred based on ethnicity and ideology. they murdered them and strung them up in cold blood, calling them communist swine… very pro-socialist behaviour.
Yes, it cites their interpretations, not their evidence.
See
Mason Brooks
Fuck the second link was supposed to be: voencomuezd.livejournal.com
Also in addition: The Truth about Hungary: facts and eyewitness accounts by A Belokon and V Totstikov
A series of diary entries, documents and eye-witness accounts written on the subject, not a blog post.
Justin Hernandez
But nothing in that link contradicts anything I said. I never denied that communist party members were killed, I never denied that there may have been reactionary elements among the rebels, and I never denied that the west sought to take advantage of the situation for its own ends. My position has always been that the bulk of the uprising, including its leaders, and the members of Nagy’s government, never displayed anti-socialist demands or intentions. So far nobody has been able to cite any major or widespread examples of calls to abolish socialism or restore capitalism.
Right I forgot that socialism is when you have symbols that fit a Soviet aesthetic.
So do you think the Cultural Revolution was a counter revolution as well? Red Guards lynched party members and attacked party buildings.
Nathaniel Gomez
Forgot this: nsarchive2.gwu.edu
Also you dismissed my several quotes and other sources, but whatever.
… ok
Yet you keep trying to claim that the actions were anti-socialist, as if the fact that reactionary elements are ingrained in it are not relevant?
Open ones? Of course not, only an idiot would openly say "fuck socialism" under a socialist system and try to get power seriously. The same reason why no serious presidential candidate in the USA would never try to call themselves an open nazi.
Nagy was anti-socialist the way Gorbachev was, both shielded themselves under the claim of "re-newing and creating better socialism", when in fact they were taking it apart by the seams.
Chase Gonzalez
You're being obtuse again. This has nothing to do with "soviet Aesthetic" The Red Flag and Red Star has been a socialist symbol for a lng time before the USSR, and so has the Hammer and Sickle motif. The whole point of the Chinese cultural revolution was to destroy the symbols of Old China, and it worked (unfortunately) and the old-ways and culture of China is largely lost to the masses.
Not a counter-revolution per se but more of a terrible revolutionary blunder. It was a massive mistake and I think it was the worst decision Mao ever made, and that includes the grain reforms.
And they were wrong for it, they were being morons, but the basis was different. The Cultural Revolution was in response TO Western influence, but was based on Western influence. The Cultural revolution rejected and attacked nationality and ethnicity, the Hungarian events were ethno-nationalist.
In other words, the Cultural revolution was the opposite of the Hungarian revolt in origin and aims, but had the same results.
Jeremiah Brown
*but was not based from Western influence and/nationalist origin
Cooper Jenkins
Anthony Fisher
photos of Прип'ять prior to the Chernobyl disaster
Isaac Parker
cont.
Nathan Collins
for those wondering what those things are in pic 2, they are fuel rods used in the reactors.
James Martin
pic 3*
pics aren't uploading in the proper order
final post
Austin Davis
As far as their actual ability to exercise any influence they were irrelevant. The various parties in Nagy's coalition government, as well as all the revolutionary worker's committees unanimously declared their support for maintaining the socialist mode of production in Hungary. At a national meeting of these councils, Hungarian military officer, former anti-fascist partisan and supporter of the revolution stated
His statement was supported unanimously by the assembly.
Again, you have no evidence for this.
Regardless, if you place its treatment of symbols over the class character and political demands of a movement then you're probably an idealist and are spooked.
But they weren't counter revolutionaries.
Again, there's nothing to support this. The demands consistent to all elements of the revolution was the withdrawal of Soviet troops and the recognition of Hungarian neutrality. If you are seriously going to tell me that that's ethno nationalism then you are clearly arguing in bad faith.
Jace Fisher
Forgot to mention that that quote is attributed to Pal Maleter, quoted in Sandor Kopasci's "In the Name of the Working Class" on page 160.
Jason Rodriguez
No, they mean concrete political rights and protections that ensure the integrity of worker's democracy.
The freedom to do what I described earlier, ie criticize the government, freely advocate one's position, and a system that puts actual democratic power in the hands of the worker's. Rakosi's regime is known to be among the most repressive in the Eastern Bloc, so these were freedoms that did not exist under his rule. There was no genuine democracy, and without democracy there can be no genuine socialism.
They didnt need a referendum. They had already elected the worker's councils which voted to hold free elections.
So you don't think that independent countries should have the right to decide whether or not they allow a foreign country to station troops on their soil?
Austria isn't part of NATO and never has been.
It didn't happen out of the blue. It happened when the AVH fired on protesting students who were demonstrating with government permission. The Soviets recognized that the situation in Hungary was highly precarious beforehand, which is why they ousted Rakosi and made Nagy PM. Rakosi's government was intensely unpopular, and popular discontent had been growing for years. The suppression of the students was the final straw.
Joshua Young
The Majority of the Hungarian population didn't even support the "Uprising" it only ever took Budapest in its entire existence and 99% of the rest of the country remained under HPR control
The Soviets didn't even invade Hungary as a nation
It simply supported the 99% of the country not under the Counter-Revs control and instead supported the Socialist goverment that had been formed outside of Budapest by Kadar and restored a socialist goverment not led by a tight ass like Rakosi or a Idealist / Counter-Rev like Nagy
Elijah Diaz
Yes and the Soviets originally supported Nagy's reforms until it became obvious it was going to lead almost certainly to a counter-Revolution
This caused a split in Nagy'a Cabinet as Anti-Counter Revs like Kadar left Budapest and formed the R.W.P.G.H to prevent socialism falling in Hungary because of Nagy's reforms
Even if you assume Nagy's intention was to create a "Better socialism" or whatever it would have inevitably collapsed into Counter-Revolution Much Like Dubcek in Czechoslovakia and Gorbachev in the USSR
Julian Morales
Finally found that PDF i lost i needed to BTFO NagyFags
Read this……
espressostalinist.files.wordpress.com
Then get back to me with Your Counter-Revolutionary Bile
Daniel Williams
If it was so great, what was 1989? The collapse? Look at what the Soviets did to "improve" agriculture in Uzbekistan. What was once the Aral Sea is a poisoned lake with thrice the salinity of the dead sea, where nothing can live. And the fishing industry it supported is long gone. Not to mention the Purges (there were several, not just 1938), Gulag Archipelago, and countless 9mm slugs to the back of the head which we all know about.
Bentley Gonzalez
The Soviets actually attempted to draw up a Conservation plan but it was cancelled under Yeltsin Because Central Asia had ceased to be a Fraternal Republic and was by then viewed as a Russian Economic Colony with the Rest of the CST / CSTO
The only Real Purge that happened after 1938 was the Assassination of Beria by Cornman
Made up
Made up
Owen Rivera
That's not true, most communities were brought under the control of revolutionary worker's and peasant's councils.
>Consolidation was under way in the provinces and villages, although the party resolution had little to do with this. The rapid change of power and the almost immediate settlement there were due to several factors. The villages contained no effective apparatus of power able to intervene against the people with any hope of success. By the time the village demonstrations began on October 27 and 28, the old order no longer had reserves to deploy. If the representatives of power waited for the demonstrators to arrive at all, they simply handed over the keys of the council office without resistance. Then a local national council would form, with members who had often served in the old council apparatus, which ensured continuity and professionalism in local government.
rev.hu
I'm not sure what you mean by this. They invaded precisely because they were certain that the Hungarian army would defect en masse if Nagy failed to contain the unrest. Until then the only security force that had consistently failed to defect either to the insurgents or support Nagy's reforms was the AVH. Even Soviet troops were seen fraternizing with the rebels.
Not sure how Nagy was a counter rev while Kadar wasn't. Kadar's Goulash Communism was basically want Nagy wanted, minus the multi-party elections, withdrawal from the Warsaw Pact and declaration of neutrality.
They supported them until Nagy announced Hungarian neutrality. Also while it's true that Kruschev believed that Nagy may lost control of the situation to genuine reactionaries, this view was largely coloured by the events of October 30th, when a mob attacked and killed a number of AVH agents. An act that was denounced by Nagy's government as well as the worker's councils. I'm really not sure where the idea that an actual counter revolution was imminent is coming from. This was a mass uprising, and in such a scenario there are bound to be many elements among the rebels, and indeed there were likely reactionaries among them. However these couldn't have been a major political force, at least not in any organized capacity, since no counter-revolutionary agendas materialized among the worker's councils or any of the parties in Nagy's coalition. Even reprehensible events like those of Oct 30 are generally cases of mob violence and excess brought on by chaotic conditions, not organized attempts to purge the country of communism.
Basically every argument that the revolution was reactionary boils down to incidents of killing party members, or the destruction of communist symbolism. The former is disproven as genuinely counter revolutionary because these killings primarily targetted AVH agents, who were known to be brutal enforcers of Rakosi's regime and were the main force opposing the rebels. Many other party members became leaders in Nagy's government, and others were early leaders of the rebellion. It's not as if communists were being systematically persecuted just for being party members. As for the issue of communist symbolism, placing symbols above the actual class character and goals of a movement is pure idealism. The assertion of an imminent counter-revolution that would overthrow Nagy and bring back capitalism isn't supported by any evidence, since there weren't any demands to do this from any organized forces such as revolutionary committees. Additionally, insisting on what would have happened is pure speculation and totally ahistorical. It's equally ahistorical to assert that Nagy was a proto-Gorbachev planning to re-introduce capitalism by reform. Once again this is speculation, and its speculation that is not supported by any evidence, since neither Nagy nor anybody in his cabinet nor any of the non-communist parties were calling for abolishing socialism. In fact by all indications, the opposite was true on all levels, with every organized element both among the insurgents and the government affirming their support for Hungary to become a neutral, independent, socialist democracy.
Charles Clark
They are literally stilll digging up the bodies even today. Mass grave, remote location, all dead from a single gunshot wound to the back of the skull.
Charles Moore
Don't know if you noticed or not but that pdf is only 129 pages but the contents lists the section labelled "The Uprising" as page 184.
Jack Barnes
Brayden Ward
That Literally was all that it would have taken for a Counter-Revolution
Even if we assume No Counter-Revolutionary Elements existed in the goverments leadership NATO would have Literally have overthrown it in fucking Seconds if the Soviets had not intervened
If you Read it you would see it goes up to page 256
It simply shows 129 on the page because of the method in which it was scanned
Seriously Read it im not going to spoonfeed you
Citation needed
Isaiah Morgan
Just like how they overthrew Yugoslavia and Albania when they broke from the USSR? Oh wait…
Nathan Baker
All apologies. Here, friend.
en.wikipedia.org
Justin Lopez
Lmao. City cemetery vs the whole of France etc.
Eli Murphy
You are an ideologue and clearly nothing will convince you to the contrary. Bye.
Carter Butler
Yugoslavia's Neutrality was basically bought by the west in order to divide the Socialist camp and the WP (Yugo Being the Bridge to Albania) and Albania was only not invaded because of the Extreme Mesaures Hojha Took plus him basically turning Albania into a Mini Vietnam Warzone
Even if you count all of those thats nowhere near the numbers you claim
Plus Byikivina can basically be ignored since the Holodmer is Proven Propaganda
Chase Martinez
No it wasn’t. Yugoslavia broke from the USSR because they refused to heed Stalin’s orders to abandon the KKE to be murdered by Nazi collaborators and western imperialists. In response Stalin tried to have Tito killed and Tito told him to fuck off and went his own route. They also never gave up their independence to either side. And again, saying that x or y would have definitely happened is pure speculation, it’s ahistorical and unfalsifiable.
Joshua Young
I remember reading that western intelligence agencies tried to get a view of Albania in the 50s and concluded this tiny ass country would be impossible to invade because everyone was armed.
Mason Martinez
this is the Aral Sea. In the 1960s, Soviet researchers predicted the complete evaporation of the body of water, and a river used to irrigate farmland had the excess water siphoned into the lake. This was, however, expensive, and during the privitisations (and subsequent economic catastrophe) of the 1980s, the plan was abandoned. After Kazakhstan seceded, ultra-intensive cotton farming practices and infrastructure mismanagement (most water running through irrigation to the farms evaporated on the way there) accelerated the shrinkage. Most of the former Aral Sea is a desert.
Bentley Stewart
Elijah Sanchez
Jose Collins
"Fight in the Airplane" by Лосин В (from the Soviet children's magazine Мурзилка)
Juan Ward
mini documentary about the ВДВ circa the 1970s
youtube.com
Blake Campbell
Russia tops EuroSkills 2018 medal table
feweek.co.uk
A lot of former Warsaw Pact countries also rank high.
Grayson Thomas
Is the one on the left a Central Asian Women Circa 30s-40s and the text says 20 years later? (After 1991?)
Asher Turner
The text is comparing the status of rights for women in Uzbekistan during the 1930s and 20 years after 1991.
Carson Bailey
REALLY makes you think
Camden Wood
Belorussian here
AMA I guess.
I kinda want to see what it was like in the 1970s, but I guess I'll just live with Lukashenko
Gabriel Reed
Does the government there try to maintain any illusion of being a continuation of the Belorussian SSR or do they just drape themselves in Soviet aesthetics?
Leo Edwards
They just drape themselves, it really isn't a secret that Alexander isn't a good communist by any right. But we do have a lot of socialist, and the government does a lot to combat reactionary pro-west bullshit.
Andrew Hall
Whats the deal with the Union Treaty With Russia?
Does Putin Basically want a make a Right-Wing equivalent to old USSR?
Xavier Rogers
I don't know much about diplomacy, but I guess this is just Russia trying to keep us out of American control, as it failed to do with Ukraine. Russia and Belarus have basically had a BeNaLux type relationship since the Federation and Republic were formed.
Andrew Thompson
well belarus was one of the "three sisters" (the others being russia and the ukraine) and was one of the four founding republics in 1922.
they suffered quite a bit during nazi occupation in WWII, but after they recovered they were pretty developed and grew as most other republics did during the 60s and 70s.
i believe lukashenko was the only official to vote against soviet dissolution as well which was pretty cool of him.
David Hill
Ian Garcia
did you get these photos from me? i remember posting them in leftytrash a while back.
nice articles, really making me feel ;_;
Robert Nguyen
Yes indeed, I saved quite a few
The articles are what I've scrounged up from the internet, (because its hard to find anything in English that would dare publish such things)
Jackson Foster
oh cool
if you want the rest i could post them along with some other related pics
gonna have to wait a week until i'm able to get on my PC though since i'm away from it
Aiden Turner
Yeah go ahead!
Jace Phillips
i have a lot of stuff i'd like to post from my pic collection but i don't know if i'd like to just fill up this thread with pics and no actual discussion
i was considering making a thread for people to dump cool pics but i don't think many people would be that interested
i'll just continue posting small dumps and info here i guess
Ian Lee
Gavin Morris
happy DDR anniversay comrades