Is North Korea inevitably going to reform into another capitalist one-party state shithole like Vietnam, or could Cockshott cum to the rescue and reverse the market liberalisation trends in the DPRK and complete Project Cybersyn for North Korea now that Kim John Un has nukes to protect himself from CIA coups which Allende did not have?
Does Cockshott have the balls to help out North Korea like Stafford Beer did for Allende's Chile? Or is it a problem of Kim John Un not being truly committed to Marxism-Leninism and more interested in turning North Korea into another typical capitalist Asian country owned by foreigners so he can play arcade and watch more basketball matches thanks to his spoiled upbringing in Switzerland?
Cockshot isn't shit. It is clear from the absence of practice, we would have seen Cybercoop corporation already otherwise.
DPRK's only virtue is serving based China to combat American imperialism.(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
Nicholas Rogers
It's called Amazon
Lincoln Campbell
Idk but now that you mention it OP I guess they should.
Jace Cruz
Because the DPRK doesn't give a fuck about any leftist ideals, it's purely about Korean ethnonationalism.(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
Matthew Miller
No, seriously. A fundamental Marxist principle is that theory always translates into practice. A standard and common Marxist practice of the lowest grade is a labour union. And yet, all those memed Western academics do nothing but Larp ex cathedra. Where are Cockshooting orgs? There are none! None! No matter what You think of Sanders or Cortez, They are much better than Chomsky, Zizek and this guy.
Easton Smith
because reality doesn't work like in your textbooks you utopian fuck
I think that is not that simple,like pressing a button in Ostalgie and losing paty loyalty. But if the koreans put a little bit of the money in the Neo Cybersyn program,they could archieve a lot.
Because Cockshott is at the age where the plane ride from London to Ponyang would kill him. But seriously, it’s because North Korea is run by ethno-natioalists. There’s a reason Nazbols love that country. The real question is why hasn’t he been hired by Cuba, because unlike the DPRK Cuba is still Marxist-Leninis.
“Cockshotism” isn’t an ideology, and Cockshott has many people listen to his lectures. You should listen to them, or wait your busy shutting them down because he criticized your estrogen pills fifteen years ago.
Colton Johnson
NK is socialist, but there government is shit, and juche is revisionist.
Citation needed Yeah and some retarded Putinists also love Stalin so? Juche / Kimism is just M-L but updated for Koreas unique situation AKA Political and economic isolation
Carter Harris
The DPRK also lacks a part about striving for a Communist society from its constitution as has many socialist states Constitutions of Socialist states are meant to reflect their current conditions not their long term aspiration As for Cuba's economic reform it dosent open the way for Chinese Red-Capitalism but simply recognizes the already existing petite Bougie Enterprise on the Island instead of simply allowing them to exist Semi-Clandestinely
Joshua Hughes
Also as for the article about the Markets in the DPRK : Just having a sector (Mostly of Consumer goods) of the economy in which petite boug are allowed to exist dosent automatically make the economy not socialist See : Kadar's Hungary Cuban Model Soviet NEP (Which went even further towards making concessions towards bougies then this) Mao's New Democracy
Hudson Taylor
Yes,I was thinking about that,like the Korean enterprises in the border with SK and the SEZ in China.
John Baker
This. I was shocked to learn that Juche called for self imposed isolation that is arguably causing more damage to their economy than sanctions are.
Luke Reed
Economic Autarky is not the same as intentional isolation
Kevin Wilson
Autarky, as an end to itself, is a fascist concept.
The citation for that is usually a book called The Cleanest Race which is full of bullshit psychoanalysis of propaganda posters and uses no primary sources. There's one part where the author recalls how a defector looked away from him when he approached her and uses that as an example of anti-capitalist racism. There are also fascists who like Thomas Sankara so I guess we should stop praising him as well.
There is a practical necessity for socialist countries to establish a form of autarky since they almost always come under economic attack, but that is different from having that as an actual ideological end to the point that you name your ideology after it. That’s what “Juche” means, autarky.
Also, it’s hilarious that Kim Jong Il thought a lack of autarky is what brought down the USSR and the rest of the eastern bloc, maybe he should read Cockshott.
Evan Garcia
checked the ban log but i only see one of the bans same person? anyway, as much as it's annoying to see retarded shit like that being posted, the response already got that covered and it's self exposing on how utterly stupid they are
you're right insofar as it concerns the adaption of Juche outside of the DPRK but as an adaption of ML on the Korean situation it's absolutely legitimate and has proven its worth slandering the internationalist character of the WPK on the other hand is ridiculous nonsense and slander against national liberation struggle
Nathan Morales
Name one rebel group the WPK is sponsoring.
Hell, name one socialist group anywhere the WPK is sponsoring (and not one of their “friendship” orgs that are dedicated to little more sucking off the WPK and the latest Kim)
Joshua Jones
No. I changed the ban on angry cat to one week instead of permanent, because I thought it was overly harsh, but he/she hasn't appealed the ban yet. Hammer & sickle appealed so I just unbanned entirely.
Ian Robinson
they're currently involved in helping syria and help with maintenance of cuban weaponry what makes you think they're in the position of "sponsoring" others? if anything it's them who need to be sponsored for their revolutionary anti-imperialist efforts and yet, thanks to juche, they manage to pull so much off on their own that they got the imperialists to sit down and talk despite their difficulty for basic survival
okay, glad it's not some weird fuckery going on then, thanks for letting me know you are a very kind vol
Dominic Perry
Putin is also backing Assad, is he our most trusted comrade?
Where’s the internationalism? Even the most nationalist countries have foreign allies. Is there any attempt to rebuild an international? Any attempt to reach out to other socialists? It seems like it’s far easier to get DPRK sponsorship, even funding, if you’re an ethnic Korean organization than if you’re a socialist party.
Jaxson Ramirez
if you can't admit that you're just trying to pull a really stupid rhetorical trick here that makes no sense whatsoever then let's just stop this conversation right here since there's no point in continuing with someone struggling this much with his cognitive abilities you need medication, not discussion
Wyatt Richardson
NPA in the Philippines, for example. Hezbollah. The JVP in Sri Lanka.
Connor Peterson
You demands are ridiculous, because the DPRK is under massive siege is needs to put all resources into maintaining their own country. If the DPRK were a rich bitch with no sanctions your critique would be valid.
Sebastian Anderson
Not just North Korea, but Cuba and Venezuela,Laos and Vietnam should hire and invite more foreign friends of revolution as advisers and for support.
Caleb Hall
You used this as a point for the DPRK’s internationalism.
Go ahead, tell me how the DPRK’s involvement is different from Russia’s.
How does the DPRK support NPA? Hezbollah isn’t leftist in any way. JVP was back in the 70s, and I don’t think it was proven, the Ceylonese merely accused them of arming the JVP.
They already have nukes. Nothing else is really going to prepare them any more for a potential invasion.
Ian Lewis
Except they didn't. "Juche" comes from the Japanese word shutai which was used in Japanese translations of Marx and Engels and made its way into Korean translations as ''juche". It means "subject".
Since 1991 their material support for rebel movements worldwide has been greatly reduced. The same thing happened with Cuba and the reasons should be obvious. This does not mean an abandonment of internationalism. The WPK participates in the IMCWP and currently support a lot of fringe parties like CPGB-ML and KPD.
Yes, but within the WPK context it means “self-reliance”, effectively “autarky”
Also, it’s been over a quarter of a century after the breakup of the USSR. This is a criticism I also have for Cuba. I think both of them are effectively nationalist now and are slowly liberalizing. They bought the Fukuyama meme and don’t really believe in international communism anymore, it’s just a language they use because it’s their political currency. Which is why I think guys like Cockshott haven’t gotten their due attention.
I’d be happy to be proven wrong, but I don’t think I am.
Jaxson Gomez
"Our views most closely align with those of Marxists" - Hezbollah "We will build a welfare state in Iran" - Also Hezbollah
Liam Bailey
...
Brandon Barnes
Is Hezbollah not Shia Islamist anymore? Or are you claiming that Shia Islamism is compatible with leftism?
Jace Campbell
I'm saying that Shia Islamism IS leftist (depending on who the Muslim is you're talking to).
We could also consider the darker possibility that they have experimented with cybernetics and found them to be a failure, but that’s just speculation.
Henry Turner
Oh no,don't break my red heart user.
Bentley Howard
THE NAZBOL GANG WON'T NEED COMPUTERS FOR WHERE WE'RE GOING FUCK SPACE X AND QUANTAS THE ENTIRE NAZBOL GANG IS ALREADY HIGHER THAN ANY SATELLITE They A. Might not know him or B. Can't due to diplomatic reasons? Idk. Seems smart tho.
That isn’t what I said. It’s possible to criticize a country and be against Imperialist powers invading it.
Noah Bennett
Maybe. But their recent political concessions suggest they're going the route of privatisation and Western social liberalism.
Over 2/3 of the economy is still private. It's unclear if PSUV has the political will to seize the private sector. They haven't had their October Revolution.
The government sold out Laos in 1989. Their 1989 is China's 1978.
"Socialism" with Vietnamese characteristics, with no intention of slowing down privatisation.
DPRK is the perfect place to implement Cybersyn (사이버시너) because: • the government can seize whatever black/grey private market they have with little retribution, assuming they have something equally suitable to replace it with • 99% literacy rate • they already have a national intranet • obedient citizenry who will not riot against Cybersyn unlike spoiled liberal first worlders or propagandized third world petite-bourgs like Venezuelans • immunity from CIA coups / foreign interference
Because that really isn't 100% practical for them right now.
Nolan Fisher
The question is, how do we introduce Un to Cybersyn? Who, here on Zig Forums will introduce him to Cockshott? If they switch to Cybersyn / Cybercom, they'd easily become one of the most powerful countries due to the absolute efficiency of technology and the introduction of that efficiency to an economy. Who will introduce them to it?
Colton Hall
Chile had a shittier economy, much cruder technology, they were abandoned (in terms of financial support) by both the USSR and PRC (no surprise there considering Mao's schizophrenic foreign policy) and they already had a partial working system by 1972.
Gabriel Butler
Actually Chile was decently technologically advanced: since it had most of the world's copper production it had a lot of electronics production. Also Cybersyn was dependant on a load of teletext machines being bought for the government bureaucracy from the yanks by the previous government.
Brody Brown
One thing is to find korean translations of Glushkov, Kantorovich, Stafford Beer, Wiener and so on in the public libraries throughout the DPRK. So the theory and known practice abroad is known. It is not like OGAS or Cybersyn are something super secret.
The other thing is to have someone like Victor Glushkov actually proposing such solution. So this is the litmus test of the Worker's Party of Korea, what stance will they take towards cybernetic computerized economy planning. Will they follow the Communist Party of Soviet Union, or will they actually go forward?
While one can bet that leftypol is being scanned by the US Intelligence agencies, it would be a relief to have it scanned by north korean intelligence agency, such observation would give one much hope in the future.
Wouldn't constructing a Cybersyn system possibly hurt the integration of the North and South Korean economies as they head towards mutual reunification?
It depends what "integration" and "mutual reunification" actually mean. If it means the same thing as what East and West Germany did, then yes, cybersocialism would be impossible because this type of unified Korea would have the standard capitalist mixed market economy, completely eliminating all proletarian revolutionary potential.
Jose Miller
Well Germany wasn't that: the East Underwent "Shock Therapy" Economically, it wasn't mutual. There are talks of joint industrial zone and then allowing regulated trade. To be frank a good solution might be the mutal zone operating under Kadarism: however I cannot see how two welfare states, with one operating under Cybersyn, can integrate.
Josiah Moore
In their texts the WPK defines the Juche idea as an idea that the popular masses are the masters and driving force of revolution and construction. Basically that they are the revolutionary subject. This includes its philosophical principle, its socio-historical principles and its guiding principles. "Maintaining the independent stand" (establishing Juche in ideology, independence in politics, self sufficency in economy, and self reliance in defence) is in fact one of its guiding principles, but it isn't all that is meant by "Juche".
The problem with the DPRK is that they are anything that isn't Korean is not marketable for them. This is the whole reason they came up with Juche/Kimilsungism-Kimjongilism as their own variant of Marxism-Leninism because Kim Il Sung said "we have pictures of Moscow everywhere, but where are the pictures of Pyongyang"? Since then, they completely appropriated most socialist concepts for themselves, "in their unique, Juche-based way", as every article from them reads. We all know this isn't true, their hi-tech stuff mostly comes from cooperation with China or joint ventures (which is completely understandable, don't get me wrong) but then gets rebranded as their own achievement.
So, if Cockshott and other works will have to be popularized in the DPRK, it must be under guise of their own achievement, non-Korean names would probably have to be not more than a footnote, and a North Korean "Cybersyn" would have to be promoted as a "uniquely Korean innovation based on Juche principles in our style" or something. That doesn't mean it's impossible, but you can't just give a WPK delegation a Korean translation of TANS and then expect them to implement it. If the DPRK opens up more, maybe really achieves some kind of loose federation with the RoK, and gets their sanctions lifted, this would mean that there would be a legit chance to popularize it, but because of the volatile nature of the situation on the Korean peninsula and US imperialism this is also something that is not set in stone.
James Cooper
Oh and, Venezuela is a wild card, but the "2/3 private economy' is outdated data. That's true for 2011, maybe 2014, but not since two years. Also, Venezuela is by far a more open society than all of the countries you mention, more susceptible for new ideas, and the PSUV government has shown interest in things like bitcoin. Unlike the other examples, PSUV has actually organized a conference with Cockshott (Vietnam invited him but didn't hold a full conference), translated TANS and printed 5k copies they gave to party members. They never got back to him, but now that things are accelerating in Venezuela, the situation might be different.
Elijah Walker
And one more thing, sorry for the third post in the row, I'm saging, it is unrealistic that you could implement cybernetics for the whole economy overnight. It makes much more sense to introduce to a sector of the economy, preferably heavy industry (the minister of heavy industry was the one that invited Cockshott), which is mostly state-owned in Venezuela, and struggles with productivity right now. The problem would be corrupt PSUV bureaucrats which currently administer them. They would have to be removed which might be difficult.
Gabriel Murphy
The DPRK is probably a lost cause. Venezuela would be more fertile ground to try something though.
Jeremiah Torres
you're right it is outdated, since the government is currently undertaking more deals with the capitalists and moving to privatize more sectors.
