Breadlines

Every time socialism is implemented theres breadlines.
You cant just go to the store and buy things.
Wouldnt that annoy you guys?

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Other urls found in this thread:

telesurtv.net/english/news/Venezuelas-Economic-War-Tons-of-Food-Found-Buried-Underground-20150817-0024.html
nintil.com/2016/05/11/the-soviet-union-food/
cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/DOC_0000498133.pdf
cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP79-01093A000700060003-3.pdf
cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/DOC_0000380517.pdf
burckina-new.livejournal.com/966395.html
burckina-new.livejournal.com/923181.html
rbth.com/russian-kitchen/327231-soviet-union-brought-culinary-equality
web.archive.org/web/20070314063045/http://www.usm.maine.edu/eco/joe/works/Soviet.html
tvzvezda.ru/news/qhistory/content/201704280957-vq2g.htm
facts-are-facts.com/news/the-federal-reserve-is-privately-owned
onb2017.livejournal.com/146140.html
twitter.com/SFWRedditImages

that """USSR""" picture is prerevoltion russia

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They still had breadlines

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and so do you

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Which is what happens when the west adopts socialism…

the great depression was literally capitalism's fault you knob

The Great Depression only happened due to the machinations of the Federal Reserve, a GOVERNMENT CONTROLLED bank. Made far worse by FDR's policies, designed to keep America in poverty in order to consolidate power, which had also been practiced in Italy and Russia.

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Even if that were true, the capitalist state is not separate from capitalism as a system. On the contrary it’s an essential and integral part of it.
Oh never mind I see you’re retarded.

When the great depression happened they had a gold standard.

Yeah it's not like ridiculous amounts of speculation and the decline in farming did anything to contribute. You dumbass libertarians talk about the federal reserve like French or Russian Monarchists talked about Jews, like a system of being ruled by the inbred and extorted for crops by the army was perfect.

...

The Fed is explicitly called for not only in the Communist Manifesto, but also in the platform of the Illuminati and in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion

As for the New Deal, it was a total failure and only an excuse for FDR to pack the courts, the economy recovered because of the war and because certain banking interests needed the US economy active again to aid the soviets.

See

It's still capitalism, you tard.

literally proven a fake
which was struck down, we don't have 15 judges on the court you tard

Nigger do you even know what the new deal was? Or why the war ended the depression? It was massive program of infrastructure spending and mandated wage increases that employed people in public works projects. The boom caused by the war worked the exact same way, by the government pumping massive amounts into the war economy, creating employment and disposable income. The new deal was the same thing on a smaller scale in a peacetime economy.

The protocols of sion say they were in favor of the gold standard because they could cause depressions by withdrawing money out of circulation.

The protocols match up with what's written in the Talmud and what's happening in world affairs today, it matters not if someone "proves" it fake because it still manages to be true.

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Two words: Economic sabotage

telesurtv.net/english/news/Venezuelas-Economic-War-Tons-of-Food-Found-Buried-Underground-20150817-0024.html

Take your meds.
The New Deal did what it was meant to do, provide short term relief for the damage caused by a failed capitalist economy. The State™ is not the enemy of True Capitalism™, it has always aimed to enable it, whether lolberts want to admit it or not.

Like Israel failing to regime change its neighbor with an embarrassingly bad army?

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Irony is that this dipshit should be kissing the ground FDR rolled on, since he basically saved the US from going CSA.

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That's because fortunately, there are still pockets of resistance to centralized banking and finance


Kaiserreich is an unrealistic commie jerkoff, not surprising that you people take it as gospel

IT WAS REAL IN MY MIND

He should be, but Austrian economists have caused permanent brain damage to the American right wing.

the right was always brain damaged my dude, have you read Edmund Burke? He pretty much says class stratification is good because aesthetics.

Its the ace on porkys pocket

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So are you a supporter of the DPRK?

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Yugoslavia didn't have breadlines.

Market socialism. It just works.

ebic

When the motherland hungered, I ended the famine. When the west was in crisis, I guided the people to unparalleled growth. While you wasted your days with the "red scare", I cultivated a global superpower from nothing. And now that global capitalism is breaking down and environmental catastrophe seems imminent you have the audacity to come to me for help.

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Why was unemployment so bad in the SFRY anyway?

literally market socialism

So have market socialism and have the government employ the rest.
Why cant far left parties think outside the box more.

Unless you shoplift you can't do this is the west either. Lines are a thing everywhere.

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Yeah but what about it caused that problem?

Tbh I think that a model where you had say a 70/30 split of cooperative vs state owned enterprises it would be quite successful. Basically Dengism and Titoism rolled into a big ol’ revisionist sandwich that could serve as an intermediary stage.

market socialism has all the same contradictions capitalism does

Just because Tito was too retarded to implement a government job guarantee doesn't mean that market socialism isn't advantageous when compared to central planning due to price signals preventing there from being shortages all the time.

It had many of them, but not all. Regardless, most capitalist countries didn’t have unemployment problems as bad as Yugoslavia’s. Also unemployment under capitalism is by design to keep wages down, but that doesn’t make any sense in a system where the workers aren’t exploited by an owning class. Clearly that problem was unique to their economic model, I’m just wondering why.

holy fuck christcom you are retarded what next a picture of an empty shopping mall during a natural disaster lmfao?

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Maybe it was lack of capital to start new coops

Yeah thatd be ideal
Maybe call it tito leninism

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yeah no shit that the capital city where all the elites reside is well stocked too bad that situation wasn't replicated elsewhere further away in the USSR. I mean what were are all the people who lived through the USSR just lying about the shortages? Not even Cockshott denies that there was a shortage problem.

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Armenians wish more than any other former soviet republic for the union back, explain that fucker

Shortages can refer to all kinds of things. The fact that there may be no coffee or sour cream in the store at a given time doesn’t mean that the shelves were empty and people had to wait in line for basic food staples constantly.

Except that The Baltic States (for example) were better off than Moscow… moron.

he average daily caloric consumption per capita of the soviet union in 1975 is usually estimated at 3,500 kcal. This calorie data comes from a book called Farm to Factory: A Reinterpretation of the Soviet Industrial Revolution. The author used the UN's methodology of calculating calorie availability, (which isn't necessarily the same thing as calorie consumption), from 1885 to 1989. He did his own calculations however and factored in the works of Wheatcroft and Jasny both of whom had done many analyses of the USSR’s economy. While one can argue that there were some health issues with this, such as obesity, (although back in the era people seemed far more active and probably burned through a lot more than a modern couch potato watching Netflix and playing video-games), that level of calorie production combined with Soviet price policy made it so that starving and hunger were eliminated in the USSR after WW-2 which is far more important an achievement. The only exception to this was the brief famine around 1947 around Moldova and Southwest Ukraine, which is to be expected considering that these were among the most heavily damaged regions during WW 2. Of course different regions of the USSR had different availabilities of food and thus different places had different showings:

The Former Soviet Union in Transition for the Joint Economic Committee of Congress, John Pearce Hardt (which uses soviet export data of a national statistical yearbook from 1989 ВНЕШНИЕ ЭКОНОМИЧЕСКИЕ СВЯЗИ СССР в1989

WHEN, time period matters

Not to mention
CITATION NEEDED

I wish we could just let all the different states choose their own system and then everybody could see which one's best

My local grocery store recently ran out of oatmeal. Also I had to wait in line for like 10 minutes because it was 4:00 pm on a weekday. Clearly America has a oatmeal shortage issue.

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The Fed is privately-owned, dummy. A huge part of Ron Paul's political platform was "nationalize the FED".

I only eat ~2100 Calories a day. Must be why I'm a 22 BMI skellington

that would be a unitary government

ok, sounds good.
Don't you wish you could have your own Communist state, where NutSacs and liberals and ancaps have no say? You could finally prove that Communism does work

If california turned into commiefornia itd be the only state that would be recession proof and have full employment.

Both of you are relying on data that has already been thoroughly debunked.

nintil.com/2016/05/11/the-soviet-union-food/

^ This guy goes through both the consumption data produced by Farm to Factory and christcom's stupidly out of context graph and concludes that both estimates are wrong.

I don't need to give a citation for there being shortages because it's a commonly accepted fact just like the earth is round and the sun exists. The burden of proof lies on you idiots to prove that Soviet consumption, if not better than Western capitalist states, was at least equal to it and that there were no shortages. Since your """data""" has been thoroughly btfo with that link I just provided and all you have left to fall back on is a couple of pictures that do not accurately represent the average soviet citizen's life I look forward to seeing what bullshit you'll spew next.

Socialism cannot coexist with capitalism, especially in a place like America. The capitalists would attempt to undermine it at all times and would seek to isolate us. There can be no peaceful coexistence, only death. Fortunately capitalists are weak without America, as the world will soon discover.

Exactly, which is why you each get your own state

Yes, and you should isolate them as well
I feel like you are missing the whole point. Are you saying you cannot survive without the captialists?
Fuck them, let them fuck off to their own land and shoot them if they trespass into your land

Then help make it happen
Many California nazis, libertarians etc would self-deport if it meant their new home were devoid of Commies

The federal government would never tolerate having a communist state.

Nintil is not reliable, and he never debunked that information only referenced it.

Yes through what amounts to a nit-pick that ignores the ENTIRE fucking book that is Farm to Factory. It's like saying a 500 word post on Zig Forums can debunk the whole of Das Kapital
You have not provided an argument, just spat out the same tired bullshit.

Soviet consumption levels were lower back in the 1950s but there weren't actual shortages.

This is corroborated by a 1984 CIA report released in 1999, The Nutrient Content of the Soviet Food Supply

The report says that the nutrient content of Soviet food supply matches the US’s. Carbohydrate intake is higher, and fat intake is lower, but that the gaps were narrowing. The CIA analysts also estimate that losses from production to consumption are higher than in the US. Food availability differed between regions of the SU. For example, fruit consumption per capita in the Russian SFSR was 40 kg per person, while the Siberian region just consumed 12 kg. Meat consumption in Estonia was 80 kg, but just 31 kg in Uzbekistan, (data for 1975-1981). An earlier CIA report concerning Soviet consumption per capita from 1928–1955 finds that,

“Soviet levels of consumption continue to be extremely low compared with those of Western countries. No firm evidence is available, however, which would indicate serious dissatisfaction of soviet consumers” (Pg 1, provisional Intelligence Report № 114, Indexes of Household Consumption In the USSR 1928-1955).

cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/DOC_0000498133.pdf

cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP79-01093A000700060003-3.pdf

cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/DOC_0000380517.pdf

burckina-new.livejournal.com/966395.html

burckina-new.livejournal.com/923181.html

There were queues in Czechoslovakia, but not for bread. There were queues for some kinds of fruit, better quality meat, Vegeta (a spicy salty Yugoslav mixture used for flavoring food) Vegeta (condiment) - Wikipedia etc. but not bread lines, not after the 1952 when Rationing was ended. All basic foodstuffs were readily available in the shops and things that were queues for were (with some exceptions) not rationed, meaning that even if there was a queue, you were able to buy any amount you want. there were nearly no queues for basic goods in Czechoslovakia, plus people frequently had their lunch at school or work, and those were typically very caloric dishes, with a lot of butter, dumplings etc… Czechoslovakia had the 8th biggest amount of calories per capita in the world in 1988 with Hungary and Bulgaria at 5th and 4th place respectively

One of the reasons there were food shortages in some rare years (and even then only certain foods) was because meat and other products were always the real thing, not Pink Slime. Quality standards were stringent, and violators could be criminally prosecuted (and I'm all for it, if you ask me!). No-one was allowed to enter factories and other areas of production without head-nets and proper aprons and gloves, sanitary food was very heavily enforced, and violations were fined.

eat shit

...

Oh boy, one of these illiterates.

The Communist Manifesto was issued on the eve of the Revolutions of 1848 and was only issuing transitional demands, it wasn't describing socialism.

More
rbth.com/russian-kitchen/327231-soviet-union-brought-culinary-equality

web.archive.org/web/20070314063045/http://www.usm.maine.edu/eco/joe/works/Soviet.html

tvzvezda.ru/news/qhistory/content/201704280957-vq2g.htm

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If everyone in California was communist, you could all unanimously agree to secede from the union. I don't believe their will be a second civil war for California, I think both sides would be very happy to separate from each other

I've read the entire Farm to Factory book and agree with some of its conclusions. However the link I posted never attempted to debunk the entire book. It took a very narrow slice relevant to its topic (i.e., the consumption data) and criticized it. This is perfectly valid.


Sorry what the actual fuck? Is this what you call a source that helps your case? How is Soviet consumption being lower a resounding endorsement of central planning again?


Now I can tell you haven't read the link I posted and all its info. Quality-wise and quantity wise Soviets had both shittier meat than the amerikkkans and less of it available when they wanted it.

It might be, or maybe not. Depends who your neighbors are. Do you think a 100% Mormon Utah would declare war on Communist California?

On the contrary, they could not survive without us. Capitalism requires imperialism and exploitation. Thus why America is always inventing new reasons to """liberate""" other countries, especially those nations who oppose American hegemony (this is just a coincidence though!) That being said a capitalist state is nothing but a prison for their proles and should be eliminated by any and all socialist states as soon as possible. Peaceful coexistence is not achievable when your neighbor is constantly plotting to overthrow you and exploit your people and resources. Capitalism is a plague. It must be eliminated for humanity and history to triumph.

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Yes that's reliable, because the CIA has every reason to be critical and objective in its REPORTS, because it depends on them to make decisions against the USSR.
Yes, and with what amounts to nitpicking, not an argument
READ CAREFULLY you obtuse motherfucker.
This was a report from the 1950s, after the war, and the strain of rebuilding a country that had 1/5 of its land mass basically burnt to the ground, millions of factories destroyed, and around 20 million youths killed, and countless more injured. The USA meanwhile profited immensely and their allies shared this, in return for being their lackeys
The USSR also never had a consumerist culture, and thus commodity productions were not high in demand.
You also excluded an important part, "NO DISSATISFACTION" Just because you burgers need to wolf down 10 kilos of shit a day means nothing.
Except that your link provides SHIT sources to claim this. You ignored the shit ton of sources I sent just to make a false point.
That's just openly false.

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so then the issue will solve itself
you just said they will die without your help. let them die naturally
they can't do that shit if you just shoot them whenever they invade

magic of the market right?
Because capitalists are just going to passively sit on their asses and let that happen
Do you understand what modern warfare is? What M.A.D is? What subterfuge is?

no. You said capitalists depend on you for survival. If you don't help them survive, they will not survive, and you win. I am rephrasing your own statement here.
This is a hypothetical situation where they are more than happy to get away from you and do not want any interaction at all. No trade, no war, nothing
nope

Forgetting the fact that "gubmint doing somting" is not the same as socialism, the Federal Reserve has never been government owned. It is a private venture: facts-are-facts.com/news/the-federal-reserve-is-privately-owned

FDR's policies literally saved the country

Muh fascism=socialism, fuck off.

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It really sounds like you are the aggressor here. I was asking if capitalists offered you Cali on a silver platter and said "here you go, please just leave us alone" how you would respond. Apparently your response is to declare war immediately

I have through that link alone a billion more sources than you. To hand-wave it all away as bad is hilarious and would never play out in an actual debate so I'm going to leave you to your delusion. Also your newest pic references industrial production which i never criticized.

Dronin and Bellinger (2005, 310) point out, per capita consumption figures likely overstate actually available amounts, given that the Soviet Union’s inadequate transportation and storage infrastructure led to frequent shortages in stores, as well as significant loss of foodstuffs and raw products due to spoilage. Incidentally, this problem persists to the present day: according to recent estimates, equipment and infrastructure deficiencies cause Russia an annual loss of 15–20 million tons on grain, 1 million tons of meat, and 7 million tons of milk (“Russia’s Machines Cost 20 Million Tons of Grain, Institute Says”, by Marina Sysoyeva. Bloomberg, October 13, 2011).

Dronin and Bellinger (2005), for example, questioned the reliability of Soviet food consumption statistics after having discovered a discrepancy between the increases in per capita consumption reported in official government data, and the widespread mentioning of food shortages and rationing by the local Soviet press.

Both foreign observers and the Soviet press repeatedly noted the discrepancies between official production statistics and actual availability of food in stores. In 1988, at the height of perestroika, it was revealed that Soviet authorities had been inflating meat consumption statistics; it moreover transpired that there existed considerable inequalities in meat consumption, with the intake of the poorest socioeconomic strata actually declining by over 30 percent since 1970 (Dronin and Bellinger 2005).

Throughout the Soviet era, various and seemingly persistent problems had emerged to plague the country’s food system. Government experts estimated that the elimination of waste and spoilage in the production, storage, and distribution of food could have increased the availability of grain by 25 percent, of fruits and vegetables by 40 percent, and of meat products by 15 percent (Library of Congress 1991). Moreover, as Gray (Gray 1990, 94) estimated, “only 60 percent of the protein in Soviet milk [was] consumed by humans, and the milk that [was] fed to animals or simply wasted [had] more protein than half the meat Soviet citizens [consumed].”

Not even actual official Soviet press attempted to deny that there were shortages. That's pretty sad m8 but I'll leave you to your ill informed crusade. I think I'll stop here because it's just you screaming at me because you don't want to hear anything bad about central planning lmao.

Yes, so does a parasite, but you can't just rip a tape-worm out, can you? They're hooked inside you and require flushing out. Not to mention you have to know they're there in the first place (class consciousness)
That's never going to happen, because capitalism and markets are self-destructive, because consumerism results in an ever increasing yet superficial demand resulting in resource stripping. And any threat to said resources will be removed, including a socialist state that stands as a bastion of workers rights.
And that's why you're a tard.

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It wouldn't happen
hahahaha dream on

capitalists aren't inside your intestines, they can easily move to another location. dumb analogy tbh
also
lol

Sure id take socialism in one literal state.
California has everything anyways.

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Brilliant
Frankly you deserve a ban for your autistic spiel, but I'm not BO so…

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They also did not affirm them, because in essence there were none. cherry-picking remote areas and certain time periods (the Gorbachev era, the post-war era etc.) is intentionally obfuscating the point.
Except your argument does not debunk central planning at all you moron. It is a human problem.
Directly comparing the USA is fallacious, especially since you ignore the main issue… the USA and West have 'higher' commodity production and production in general because they siphon it out of vassal states and colonies. The USSR never had colonies, nor did it take from its vassal states, in fact it siphoned OUT a lot to these vassal states with annual aid in the billions. Most Afghani infrastructure today is the leftovers of Soviet aid. The reason Poland, Czechoslovakia, and Germany can live so high today is because they're using Soviet built infrastructure.
This shit again. You just ignored my sources and just keep spam posting your Nintil crap.

"… I would definitely prefer to be a Soviet worker with a wife and two children living on 125 roubles a month, with all the additional assistance, opportunity and security that the Soviet state affords, than an unemployed man with the same family in England, with no hope for the future and nothing but the dole for the present"

- Paul Winterton, Russia – with open eyes, Lawrence & Wishart, London, 1937

Полная цитата: onb2017.livejournal.com/146140.html

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I know this is a bit of a double post, but you act like states constitute their own pocket dimensions rather than being living, developing systems and processes interconnected with the systems ostensibly "outside" them. Is this the power of idealist utopianism?

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STOP BUMPING THIS FAGGOT THREAD

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You just bumped it.

In addition, sage isn't a downvote and OP can easily bump his own thread back to the top if he wants.

Not the best acronym to go with tbh

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Would the government not have been sponsoring this?

NOT ON MY WATCH

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Weirdly enough that game also had a neo-Confederate faction called the “American Union State” which is especially odd when you consider that the CSA in the game is a syndicalist state controlled by labour unions.

burns atlanta
heh… nothing personnel, dixie.

...

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Plastic food and actors.

ACTORS! ACTORS! ALL OF THEM ARE ACTORS!
AND THAT "FOOD"? MADE OF PLASTIC AND SAWDUST
THOSE BUILDINGS AREN'T EVEN REAL THEY'RE JUST FOR SHOW AND ARE CARBOARD WALLS BEING HELD UP BY STARVING PRISONERS!
MADE BY SMART GANG

Or it could be exclusively for party officials
Just saying

While obviously the idea that they’re actors is ridiculous, we should also consider the possibility that these kinds of stores are only in the most developed parts of the country or only available to nomenklatura. I mean you could take pictures of upscale stores in the US and try to claim that this was how the average American lived. Frankly there’s just no way to be sure as far as the DPRK is concerned due to the lack of unbiased information.

I believe in the op picture of the north koreans waiting in the bread line…