Hey I'm chilean and I'm here to confirm that democratic socialism doesn't work.
Among the things that allende did were land reform and he handed some corporations over to the workers.
What happened afterwards was that the people that were given the land sold it instead of working the land and the workers that ran the corporations didn't know how to run them and didn't really much care about being productive.
People would wait on the breadlines just like under every other instance when socialism has been implemented for basic things such as bread, oil, milk,etc…
Yes there was an embargo but by design socialism makes people lazy and not care.
My parents also lived under pinochet and yes it wasn't perfect either.
But now things are back to normal somewhat.
Life under allende
Other urls found in this thread:
cia.gov
youtube.com
twitter.com
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Socialism is when the CIA destroys your economy. The more the CIA destroys the economy, the socialister it is.
So from what I gather from your post was that your family was not one of those that were executed or tortured, right?
yeah but that doesn't change the fact that people had no incentives to work.
It doesn't matter where you implement it or how you implement it people will just become lazy and things will stagnate.
Where are the proofs
what or who gave you the authority to "confirm" anything?
yep, clearly this is a genuine Chilean that lived under Allende
okay? who the fuck cares no one here is a "democratic socialist".
fuck off with this bullshit
rationing wasn't even a thing after WWII and until the 80s with market reforms.
the soviets had a similar calorie intake to the average american and there is literally 0 proof that "breadlines" were a thing under socialism besides pictures from literal tsarist russia, or from the 90s when the USSR had already ceased to exist.
cia.gov
also give this a watch and you'll see people living their lives normally, no breadlines in sight
youtube.com
of course you can say this is all "muh propaganda", but i doubt the CIA would give false information to their government during the cold war just for when it gets declassified decades later so a bunch of internet communists can see it
Good thing we aren't "democratic socialists" then. This is a communist board.
i bet you can't even speak spanish, gringo
I mean I didn't say people were starving or anything.
But doing long lines for basic foods sucks.
de donde eres?
but they literally weren't in long lines for basic shit you dumbass
unless they were somehow able to hide all these "breadlines" in every single photo and video taken of the USSR (wartime or under gorbachev don't count) i doubt such a thing exists.
also for nearly 250 million people it's amazing how they were all able to be fed like the average american for like half a century just from waiting in long ass lines
must be some kind of miracle!
He’s talking about Chile, not the USSR.
He implied that all socialist countries had breadlines all the time.
he said they had breadlines like in every socialist country, which is a lie.
he's talking out of his ass
I mean for the most part allende was a good guy and most chileans like him.
He was also going to implement that cyber economy thing.
I just don't think its ideal is all.
Cockshott talks about how there were regular shortages of basic foodstuffs in socialist Poland. Says it was because central planners subsidised food too much, although I don't understand how that caused it.
i'm not denying that there were shortages at times (a good example is the rarity of certain fruits in the DDR), but to imply that breadlines happened every single time socialism was practised and that it was a direct consequence of the system as a whole is ridiculous.
also i don't think Poland is the best example of a socialist economy considering they never really collectivised.
okay haha in the world's 2nd largest economy and nuclear superpower no one worked cause they didn't have 1% of the population pocketing profits, rent and interest from the labour of the working class
get a fucking grip
The 'shortages' were not shortages in the sense that people didn't have basic foodstuffs, they did, if anything it was the 'luxury' ie. foreign imports like tropical fruit which were rare in the sense of being seasonal. Cockshott correctly explains that there were shortages of meat at one point because it was subsidised and kept at a permanently low price which meant it all sold out, at the same time in Scotland people ate less meat than Poles did, yet because in Scotland prices were high, there was always meat in the shops, just not on the kitchen table, whereas in Poland meat may have run out in shops but it was always on the table. My family certainly never faced food shortages until the 90s, the main complaint was always martial law which was a problem somewhat unique to poland.
Fundamentally capitalism deals with scarcity by making sure only the wealthy are able to get a product all of the time while the poor none of the time, whereas the sort of socialism practiced in the Eastern bloc dealt with scarcity by subsidising goods so that anyone could have them even if not everyone at once.
Imagine if luxury cars or mansions couldn't be bought but were won by a lottery of all citizens, there's not enough for everyone either way but socialism ensures a distribution that is in a sense fairer.
And if you knew a thing or two about Poland and what Cockshott says about it it's cause agriculture wasn't collectivized and the government simply subsidized bread instead of no-subsidy collectivization which could easily avoid shortages.
To speak of "regular shortages of basic foodstuffs" is plainly incorrect though
Allende and the UP didn’t smash and dismantle the bourgeois state apparatus, give power to the working people nor arm them and agreed to constitutional assurances that they wouldn’t do it. Allende cucked himelf before he even got into office and if he hadn’t it would have resulted in him never getting into office in the first place or another bloodbath. Democrat Socialism is a scam
What is a line at the supermarket? What is a line at McDonald's? You do lines for basic foods all the time you fucking moron
You're wrong.
Source: Cockshott himself
What's the name of that book?
BASED Bulgar
Even if what you said were true, and not considering how imperialism affects the third world, as you yourself said, then the proper solution would have been to enforce more productivity in exchange for allowing the workers to have their daily meal. Basically, Allende should have been more forceful.
the point is that it's anecdotal evidence, akin to a black man trying to make a point about all blacks based purely on some personal experiences
don't know if you're baiting, but it's towards a new socialism
Not baiting. Thanks.
Thought it might be Arguments for Socialism
This thread is stupid bait, however I have asked Ismail about such cases. Soviet Union and other socialist state had what polytechnical education where students were tough both how to work and run a coop.
Sounds like rationing might have been necessary.
How? notes that collectivisation was not a cure for shortages.
I literally said I didn't understand
How does that contradict what I said? Unless because Poland shouldn't count as socialist.
That Dengist retard is the worst
I think the problem is that food was cheap and everyone could afford it. A lot of people with positive opinion on socialist times admit this fact. Some sarcastically say that breadlines could be fixed with hiking the prices. A lot of mistakes were made during Warsaw Pact times, but nevertheless people were feed, educated, babies were born, houses and factories were build.
Well there's the socialist dilemma.
Have guards push the workers around and have prison socialism or let them be and have them be bums.
Neither one is really ideal.
And then again there'd be no guarantee the guards wouldn't be lazy.
how is this relevant, we're talking about the ussr and chile
he's actually pretty well read and knows his shit about the eastern bloc tbh
his china shilling is a drawback though, but i guess no one is perfect
still prefer him over the old hoxhaist ismail
Dengism is revisionism, hence Ismail is a revionist hack
Luckily socialism gave us the tools to avoid food shortages in the future. Vertical farming was first used in socialist Armenia.The first personal computer was created in the Russian city of Omsk by engineer Arseny Gorokhov and called "Intellektor".Leonid Ivanovich Kupriyanovich invented phone. Father of space age is Sergei Korolev. Cuba is the leader in renewable and medicine.China is world's biggest investor into lab grown meat.
With computers, science and vertical farming once communism wins everyone will be feed and space will be conquered.
i know plenty of marxists who defend China or Deng's reforms, doesn't make them uneducated in all other regards (as we can clearly see with ismail)
Also sage next time you post in this trash thread
First one is about as ideal as it gets, considering the situation.
Oh, there is. IDs, cameras, supervisors.
Actually, why would a guard be so lazy as to not intimidate a person into working? that's like cool as shit. It's like playing video games.
This is correct. Soviet Union and friends were constantly spied on by the and once socialism fell in Europe a lot of archives went public. Lastly there is this quote.
"I saw a hundred nationalities. No such thing as a Black man, or a white man, or 'you nigger,' or get back. People say, 'Oh, well, they just showed you the best.' You mean all of those white folks rehearsed, said: 'Muhammad Ali's coming! All the whores, get off the streets—all the whores, all the whores! Muhammad Ali's coming! Everybody walk quietly and peacefully. All hundred nationalities, pretend you get along. Muhammad Ali's coming! All the policemen take your guns off—I don't want more than two of you in the whole city. Muhammad Ali's coming!' 'They just took you where they wanted to go.' I know that's a lie. I got in my car and told my driver where to go. Lying about the Russians."
Clearly a society where guards intimidate people into laboring is what Marx had in mind.
I mean, they don't have to do that. The people who don't work will just starve. They'll have to choose between starving and working.
Well at the same time the soviet union had a 40 work week and free weekends as part of their constitution I think.
So go to work for 40 hours and get treated like a dog then go home…
China's reforms are anti-Marxist and anti-communist, China's current consumer economy is proof of this
Can you point me to the part of my reply where i denied this?
The entire "Miracle of Chile" was a complete myth to begin with, Pinochet caused tremendously more damage to the economy than Allende's flawed short term plans. He had to backtrack on the laissez-faire policies after only a few years because they were going to bring Chile to ruin. The only reason things are back to normal for you is because of his social democrat successors unfucking his agenda.
As any typical American will indicate, living in your country is not a substitute for researching its history. It doesn't mean you know jack shit about it.
What if they're disabled or too old to work? Do they just die?
Chile was in the middle of the Cybersyn project which would have revolutionized the economy. Unfortunately, Pinoshit dismantled it when he took power. Allende was intending to change things and create a more advanced economy but he was stopped. Things would've been better if he were allowed to continue.
What? of course not. They retire. This isn't some darwinistic shit lol.
And it really depends on the disablement. I mean, someone on a wheelchair can always just study engineering or physics, etc.