Richard Wolff thinks China is socialist

I think the trend here is clear. Well-educated and informed Marxists think China is socialist while memeing edgelords cooped up online screech that China doesn’t fulfill their purity test. Makes me think

Cockshott thinks China is socialist? But why would he say Vietnam isn't then, aren't they basically the same thing?

I found the communist manifesto version of cockshott
youtube.com/watch?v=EjKYVQd4r9E

Even watching the china deb8 unfold here you can see most of the effortposts made are in favour of the CPC while opposing views are for the most part appeals to emotion or literal fake news.

Sense when did Cockshot say China is socialist.

Yeah, it’s the opions of intellectuals who matter, not those of Chinese workers. Silly prol, Marxism is when intellectuals say you shouldn’t revolt, because the “Benevolent CapitalistsTM” will give you socialism in 134254367586564763454 years. You just have to wait. Please don’t form independent Unions, Prol.
thediplomat.com/2018/10/no-place-for-real-marxists-in-communist-china/

If you give a shit, you're a liberal. So what if he's wrong? Politics isn't a purity contest.

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Cockshott dosent like China he just believes that it can still be salvaged from the state its in without having to destroy the CCP

Well, duh.
DENGISM IS MAOISM

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Not Particularly Pro-CCP but "Independent Unions" have Historically been used to promote reactionary policy by the west

Wrong, Dengism is Capitalism, and the current source of Oppression of Chinese Workers.
Wrong, it’s defiantly possible to jump from Feudalism to Socialism. Yugoslavia did it, Albania did it, and Russia did it with War Communism, before revisionists wreaked everything.

I agree, trade unions must be smashed.

This was true in Poland. However the situation in China is different, these Independent Unions were formed by Marxist Students. They rightfully criticized the CCP lead Union for being controlled by Factory managers. Also modern China is capitalist, unlike Poland. So there’s a big difference.

holy shit, is China literally Asserist

And why did revisionism sprout up? Socialism wasn’t correctly rooted in those society’s material conditions. China is revolutionizing itself more and more, further socializing the means of production and laying framework for proletarian power. The road to communism is like climbing a mountain, you cannot go straight up, but must take detours and zigzags to climb to the top. Deng was literally the greatest figure of the later have of the 20th century but you’re too blind to see it. True to Mao’s teachings, Deng observed the situation, not becoming bewitched by book-worship and the straight-jacket of Soviet orthodoxy. He saw the way and today China is rising and socialism approaches.

Citation needed
Citation needed

Well I do see them slowly but surely granting people things such as healthcare.
Maybe they are genuine.
Its hard to tell since the Chinese are so materialistic but if its a long term strategy for socialism they've done a real good job.

Based

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For a second I thought that this was America.
archive.fo/AdbmO

en.rightpedia.info/w/Strasserism

HAHAHAHHHAAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHH CHINA IS FUCKING Not SocialisT.

If you call Privatization “laying framework for proletarian power.” that your correct.
scmp.com/news/china/economy/article/2060633/china-partially-privatise-one-its-crown-jewels-state-rail-company

If Deng wasn’t “writtled by book-worship” than why do Workers in Modern China chose to reject the CCP and organize into independit unions.

And Dengism is jumping off the mountain. By the time deng came to power, China already had a large Industry, and economic growth would be faster if it wasn’t for Deng. Growth also wouldn’t be concentrated in a few cities as well.

If your a Capitalist, sure

Admit you’ve never read a word of Asser in your life because you’re a monolingual Amerimutt who learned about it from Wikis and memes, kill yourself and read a book

The commanding heights of China's economy are controlled by SOEs. Either directly or indirectly.
Try again.

(from the article)
>"While these assets were largely off-limits to private investors before, Beijing also made it clear that the controlling power of China’s industrial conglomerates would be firmly in the hands of the government, or the ruling Communist Party."
In short: Investors get an opportunity to dump their money into SOEs, but without any say in how they're run. The CPC has been doing this for years.
It's a bit like doing an IPO with non-voting stock.
Because they're looking after their class interests and aren't satisfied with the pace things are going.
This will only intensify as China's economy advances further. Nevertheless, the reason the CPC is cracking down on this is because they distrust independent unions, not because unions haven't been successful in labor disputes with foreign enterprises.
You have to understand that as a developing country China has to play nice until they've achieved autarchy. If they go too far they'll lose investor confidence (which China still relies on) and even face sanctions. The latter - also in the form of embargoes and de facto embargoes - would be, and are devastating.
China was comparatively poor at the time, even in urban areas. And what industry existed was heavily outdated, and mostly of the heavy variety.
Deng realized that you cannot advance socialism without developed productive forces, and that attracting outside investments (themselves the spoils of centuries of imperialist exploitation) would allow China to develop even faster than if it tried to achieve autarchy on it's own.
A lot of people here can't imagine it, but outside major cities China is still a third world country. And back in 1980 it had perhaps the level of industry of some of the minor western powers, on a population of a billion or so.
Also realize that all of this happened after the Sino-Soviet split, and China couldn't rely on the (increasingly) ailing Soviet Union to prop up investment.

You said it.

Excuse the typos

He said "State Capitalism"

*blocks your path*

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>"…an economy which calls itself socialist, and I'm not debating whether that's true or not…"
I have a feeling Wolff is using China as an example to own the libs, but if you talked to him one on one he would say something else. His whole thing about the USSR is "well they nationalized everything but state ownership isn't socialism, socialism is when the workers directly control their workplaces" and then he goes on to talk about co-ops. Do you guys seriously believe Wolff thinks the USSR wasn't socialist (because muh worker control) but China is? He also seemed to take a jab at Cuba. He's obviously flexible with his definition of socialism in order to make the argument most likely to appeal to liberals at that point in time. It's pretty clever.

Forgot to add: It's pretty clever, but it shouldn't fool you guys. It's supposed to fool liberals.

Wow big brain take, Wolff.

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Yeah but Zig Forums will happily determine that China is not socialist if it can justify it by having someone they don't like say it is.

It's really important to some people out there that everyone on lefty tacitly support US china hawks. Because it's going to matter a lot soon.

it's really just spineless and shit theory

US: positions previously treaty-banned nuclear missiles in Guam and blockades Chinese ships in the SCS
naive leftypol poster: uhh wait
smart leftist: *screaming dengist at the top of their lungs*

you're deluded if you think Zig Forums has any significance in the world and that anyone cares about what people here think of china
in the event of open conflict between China and the US, whether some two dozen internet communists 'support' china and don't 'support' (things which amount to literally nothing but making dumb posts about it on here), is going to be the least of anyone's problems. This isn't the fucking second international.

People do care though, if they didn't care they wouldn't be putting out a ton of anti-Chinese propaganda that specifically targets the leftist demographic.

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Have you considered that you're just deluded and leftist who aren't deep state shills may in fact have opinions in opposition to the CCP?

I'm not deluded. I just know that every time criticism of some hawking FP towards China comes out or someone points out skewed reporting and narratives about China its meet with a bunch of people screaming Dengist.

FAKE NEWS

Not a single brainlet in this thread watched the video

I fully believe you can just be, for example, a retarded meme-spewing trot who writes propaganda for Nicaraguan death squads because the government is a failed socialist state, or something like that.

The delusion is when you think that means that sinister imperialist forces are out here trying to create narrative on a fringe laotian basket-weaving forum for communists that 'china bad'.

The argument he is making is that if you consider VENEZUELA socialist you can't ignore CHINA and say that's not socialism that's capitalism working as intended or whatever. He is saying this because that's what the Trump administration did. Listen to what he is saying for fuck's sake.

I do– actually the sinister imperialist forces are coming from *inside the house*!

Hum I heard someone say China and socialist so instead I'm just going to come in here and shitpost about DENGISM. I refuse to read anything you are saying, sorry. CHINA is DENGIST.

I came to post something similar. A lot of well-read people promote thought that China is socialist.

I came to post something similar. A lot of well-read people promote thought that China is socialist.

He's a Marxist, actually if you look him up you'll find he has authored several books and talks related to Marxism.

Fuck off

Where did Cockshott claim this?

...

I mean if you can't even use the very specific examples like how the people own the means of production or there isnt a fucking stock market then I dont know

only white people deserve unions I agree

Childish.For two reasons. This is not Zig Forums, a lot of people here actually read and study (scientific)theory.
Second reason is that people listed are actually very well read and in some cases have traveled to China and have better view and understanding of things than I do.

Even if they don’t control how there won, the surplus value is being given to Porkyies, which results in worker Exploitation. China is an Industrial Society, there’s no reason for them to make concessions to Capitalism if they were a Dictatorship of the Proletariat, which they aren’t but you seem to think so for some reason.

So you admit that CCP rule is NOT a Dictatorship of the Proletariat.

China is a developed Economy. They have more Industry than any other nation. The only thing they Import is raw resources that are NOT found in China, which they’ll never be able to be self-suficent in. There also increasing trade,not decreasing it with the outside world, so no they aren’t developing Autarchy.

They still just gained a lot of Industry from Mao’s five year plans. Enough so that they wouldn’t need to beg the West for more.

Lol no, most of it was built recently by Mao’s five year plans.

They already had developed productive forces from Mao’s five year plans.

Which is why pic related happens there.
archive.fo/AdbmO

Same could be said about parts of Burgerland. It dosn’t mean shit when you have a the World’s largest Industry in you Major cities, and under a proper five-year plan you can Industrialize them quickly. Capitalism and Market forces never Industrialize rural areas, unless there’s oil, but then the market abandon’s these areas for them to rot when the oil dries up.

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Wow and here I thought he was a radlib on repeat. How based. Let's PRAY that China makes the middle class, white leftists ITT buttmad forever. Let's PRAY that China usurps the western petty-booj and sends them to forced labor. Also I want that black cats fag in shackles.

Let's pray brothers!

If you don't think the CIA astroturf 4chan/Zig Forums after all these years then YOU'RE the deluded one.

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Wrong
Wrong
True

In the video Richard Wolff literally says, "Here we are 30 years later, in an economy which calls itself socialist, and I'm not debating whether that's true or not, that's not the point…" Wolff does not make the case that China is socialist, only that it calls itself socialist and therefore is a counter-example to muh venezuela. It's pretty clear from his books that Wolff wouldn't consider China to be socialist in the sense that a Marxist would use the word. The workers in China do not produce, appropriate, and distribute their own surplus. This is done via a capitalist class structure.

Cockshott has stated that China is a "socialist market economy" and has stated that China has followed an export-led mercantilist policy. This, to Cockshott, is not "socialism" especially since the Chinese have abandoned the Marxist idea of central planning.

Ismail, it's true, does believe that China is socialist, largely because the Chinese state controls some of the "commanding heights" of the economy - a phrase dating back to Lenin. (Ismail, as usual, is wrong. The private sector in China has been driving 90% of new employment. The Chinese economy is now dominated by the market both internally and externally. This is most evident in the appearance of the giant property bubble in China.)

what these anons said.

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It’s not that I can’t think for myself, it’s people realizing that socialists with a much more extensive education than myself may have better insight into the facts about China

DENGISM DENGISM DENGISM

Dengism debgism Denison dengisb :DDDengism

Here’s some real Chinese socialism for you: No investigation, no right to speak.

Hey guys here is something from Richard Wolff, he talks about how Chin—

DENGISM DENGISM DENGISM DENGISM DENGISM DENGISM

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Zig Forums China thread simulator that is pic related but it says Dengism, Suicide Nets, Social Cedit(take your meds)

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DID SOMEONE SAY SOCIAL CREDIT?!

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Looks like the anti-China janitor was hit a little to close to home. Not that I’m complaining. By all means ban anyone complaining about the absurdly low quality discussion in these threads, which starts with a OP that contains a fake summary of an interview and consist of people alternatively pointing out the OP is lying and repeating shifty memes that ensure you never actually learn anything, imo.

I don't know about it. China has higher life expectancy than US and is overall high ranking in a lot of vital areas. It is moving forward fast, while post socialist European states are, sadly, standing still while Russia sharply goes down.

CPI (Maoist) and New People's Army, the two biggest communist movements in the fight agree that China is an imperialist power if not an outright hitlerist dictatorship like Mao declared the Soviet Union to be in the 60's. Giving more creedence to academics than to literal revolutionary people's armies is suspect if not outright chauvinist.

Nobody itt actually listened to the clip, he's just referring to "self procliamed" socialism

so why be intellectually dishonest? he could have used many examples that aren't China. this just give Zig Forumsyps and cuckservatives more fuel to screech

It's an evening news program, obviously he's just going to use convenient political talking points.

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this shit is becoming insufferable, it's like you're purposely pretending not to know what socialism is at this point

people should keep in mind Wolff, while praising Chinese leaders for their hard nosed realism, has been sounding warnings on their debt levels for years.

stop this meme

anti-Sino trots btfo!!1! how will they ever recover?

If you think the CIA cares about what a few hundred random internet leftist think you’re retarted.

One of ideas behind socialism is aim to fulfill society needs rather than achieve profit.

It's not a meme, left wing theory is full of real science.

I think such theories come from quarantine of multiple left wing subbredits.

Someone who clearly never read marx and doesn't even know what socialism means thinks China is socialist, shocking!

You can debate a lot of his ideas but he clearly read marx

wolff didn't explicitly deny they're a socialist economy (with chinese characteristics) so he's pretty much Deng gang.

Them too. True.
Now go fuck yourself.