Jason Unruhe BREAKS with Jimmy Dore, Lee Camp, Kyle Kulinski, Abby Martin et al. over internet hate speech censorship debacle on social media
In this video, Jason says that the free speech absolutist talking point of "if Facebook censors Alex Jones, they're going to censor us next" is a fallacious argument because they're going to censor the left regardless.
"No one really believes in free speech. Everybody believes that it should be censored to some degree. And if you think no speech should be censored ever, you're either a psychopath or liar."
"In no way can you compare me to Alex Jones. If I put a post which was criticising US foreign policy towards the DPRK as being pro-war and imperialist, that's totally the same thing as Alex Jones going around harassing, doxing, and even in some cases threatening the parents of children who were killed in mass shootings because he was calling them crisis actors. If you think these two are the same thing and they should both be allowed, you're kind of a piece of shit. You kind of really are."
Even if we assume this is true, the left should agitate for freedom of speech and use this as a way to criticize how capitalist institutions censor by their nature, rather than egging on corporate censorship. It's not that this will actually accomplish much of anything in terms of how the corporations act towards us, but that it could convince people to come to sympathize with us more, and they'll be willing to hear our what are alternatives are to the situation.
Connor Lee
Had a stroke there at the end but you get what I mean.
Free Speech is a Meme. All people use it for is to spread their ideologies. As we all know, Politics is 100% Authoritarian as it is the Classes competing to see who gets Top. There is literally no such thing as "Libertarian".
Nothing that will cause the MoP to be changed is gonna be allowed in any society.
Jeremiah Russell
There are different degrees of censorship though. There is a big difference deranking and demonizing vs out right banning. So far they generally leave our theory and lectures up and running.
Easton Diaz
Are Jason and Jim Profit still close? I can't see them getting along anymore with Jason saying modcucked shit like this.
Cameron Stewart
were they dating or something?
Ian Perez
I dont. Unless you count restricting just how free speech is spoken (over loud speakers in the middle of the night, for example) counts as censorship. I believe any idea should be available to anyone.
Chase Phillips
there is not as much need to go after leftists when it's fucking liberals proclaiming themself as such, essentially right wing if set into correct perspective, and the actual left having been massively repressed through anticommunist scares and terror campaigns against them "free speech" is a joke
Angel Hughes
Jason knows Jim Profit?
Zachary Cox
He's absolutely correct. I can't even believe we need to have this discussion. "Free speech", or any abstract freedom, is idealism and empirically not a good thing. Capitalists for example often talk about "freedom"; what they really mean is the freedom for the bourgeoisie to oppress the proletariat. When they talk about "free speech", they mean the freedom to oppress, harass, bully and advocate whatever they want without repercussion. Marxists should strive for liberation, not freedom. "Freedom" is a hollow concept, the pertinent question is "who's freedom and in what regard?"
Free speech liberals like Jimmy Dore are well meaning, but they are fools who aid the far-right. And functionally, a fool is still a fool whether they are well meaning or not.
Zachary Rodriguez
Human Rights is also a spook.
Gavin Nguyen
wasn't some saudi head of some human rights thingey?
Sebastian Myers
They're half-brothers lmao
Owen Robinson
Free speech is not some ambiguous idea, dont compare it to 'freedom'. It is very clearly defined in what it means; a person can express any idea or opinion they want to and simply conveying it is not grounds for state punishment. You can argue the rule has been bent all you want, but despite all the anti communist efforts the US went through we are still sitting here, able to discuss it and be socialist with out the FBI arresting us.
Zachary Roberts
and thats still such a laughable and vague interpretation then i guess it's not the capitalists themselves and their power that suppress opinion, outright censor it and manipulate? such a joke i guess if it's that easy, all it takes is have a good state or no state ancaps got it figured out then, huh? if you adress such issues not from class perspective it can only end in absurd takes
Cameron Campbell
The proletariat should be educated in-depth on opposing ideologies and why they are either incorrect or in opposition to the interests of proletarians. There would be no better way to educate people on what pro-capitalist ideologues believe and why it is wrong than for them to witness these ideologues spout off each of their talking points and then for them to see each of their points disarmed and refuted out in the open.
This is not to say that there should be no limits. Harassment, direct calls for physical violence, etc. should not be allowed once a dictatorship of the proletariat is established. That much is obvious. But in a situation where the proletariat have educated themselves, have studied reactionary points of view, and still have rejected all their ideas in favor of Marxism, you have built a situation where the proles have liberated their own minds.
When the proles are properly organized and educated, open debate IS better for dominance of the proletariat over the bourgeoisie, because we have the means to turn their arguments on their head, it results in a smarter proletariat, AND it disarms the bourg of the ability to cry for freedom of speech in territories controlled by the DotP.
you are completely ignorant if everything happening in the world
Grayson Rodriguez
no guys we should let corps get more influence and power so that they use it to own the righties sometimes
Ayden Stewart
holy fuck jason stop tring to appeal to the ben shapiro crowd
Henry Brooks
Based Unruhe
Lincoln Martin
The problem with this is that rightists do not actually give a shit about "facts and logic", their ideology is based on demagoguery and aesthetics. Even if you thoroughly disarm and refute a fascist's points and completely ANNIHILATE HIM WITH FACTS AND LOGIC GANGNAM STYLE, he still won if he managed to spout off some slogans that can worm their way into someone's head. Liberals refute fascists all of the time and yet fascism is on the rise, you know why? Because for a lot of people pompous spookery about muh race and muh civilization are more attractive than someone boringly reading out a refutation of rightist pseudoscience, even if the latter is correct. In a free market of ideas, it isn't the most bullet-proof logical idea that wins, but the most brain-dead and simple one, i.e. fascism.
Charles Wilson
He's right
Jonathan Ward
Well obviously you can compete with them on more grounds than just pure ideas. One of those grounds to compete on would be aesthetics and such. Furthermore how do you expect to manage to overthrow the bourgeoisie without convincing a large mass of people to do it with you first in a similar manner to what I'm talking about?
Joshua Rogers
Debate is not a necessary part of propaganda. We can convince people right-wingers are retarded without deliberately platforming right-wingers.
Colton Gonzalez
I don't get this, could you elaborate? Do you think people are just going to listen to you for no reason despite being constantly bombarded with reactionary talking points from all angles, and especially with how interconnected the Internet is now along with how many people are using it?
Brandon Morris
Off-topic, but what are Roo's (and the M3Wist) views on the migrant caravan, or immigration from the 3rd to 1st world in general? Do they believe in open borders for labor or not?
Michael Williams
They are brothers
The thing is corporate censorship/moderators a part of capitalism and most of these bans are done with the backing private property. Take the Jim Profit pill
Explain brainlet what people like Marx,Bakunin,Lenin,Rosa Luxembourg tough about things like free speech etc.
Landon Morales
Jason is completely right. Liberals and Republicans both have been silencing the left for generations regardless of any "free speech" laws.
Reminder that the most censored speakers in colleges are all leftists as well.
Juan Young
tiresome moral panic, this is what the police is for, no facebook censor required
Andrew Carter
I don't think Unruhe is very bright, but I think even less of Dore and Martin.
Charles Fisher
Jimmy Dore and Jason Unruhe are apples and oranges. Jason Unruhe is a ☭TANKIE☭. Jimmy Dore is a liberal who believes we need more social democracy. Supporting free speech is a liberal principle.
Jimmy Dore seems to be more liberal than most liberals on social issues (sounds ironic, I know) like freedom of expression. It's economics where he strays away from the liberal narratives. Mainstream liberals are pretty right-wing in economics. They just believe that capitalism should be a meritocracy and that racial minorities, gays, women, etc. should be allowed to compete like anyone else. And should be given handicaps (affirmative action) to make them better able to compete. If you are a poor white male, liberals smugly tell you that you deserve to be poor. I had a liberal last week tell me that he was better than me. Smug bunch of pricks. Jimmy Dore is one of the few liberals that I like.
Christopher Walker
Fascism will always win out against leftism in a duel in the first world. And even countries like Brazil, which aren't fully first world. Socialism is an internationalist ideology. If you oppose mass immigration, even though mass immigration is hindering the standard of life for the first world working class, socialists call you a reactionary. Socialism is a non-starter in the first world. Fascism is more palatable. Because I can see how life would be better for the first world working class if immigration was limited. Even if Republican/Conservative rule is still effectively a shit sandwich. It's the least shitty of the two possible scenarios for the first world working class.
Austin Gonzalez
I don't think that is true at all. Can you give an example?
Jackson Peterson
The thing is though we are Open Borders because if the World was Socialist then there would be no need at all for borders in the first place. The whole reason Immigration occurs is because the World isn't Socialist.
Levi Parker
Was he connected to [anyone] before?
Luis Price
Mao Zedong?
Brayden Cruz
I recall about 10 years ago when Pirate Bay was a huge thing, they started a free speech image hosting service and caught all kinds of shit for stating that this included child porn.
It sucks, but free speech isn't a simple yes/no answer. There's grey area and that makes things difficult.
Jaxon Carter
with a cult, briefly
James Fisher
Exactly this. Humans beings are not rational or logical animals. We are deeply flawed, and incredibly prone to social engineering. The vast majority of humanity choose politics based on feels, or aesthetics rather than what is actually politically correct. That is why the far-right is so effective - their politics are so braindead that they can condense their line into a single "feel good" meme, or bumper stucker. 9/10 times, in any debate, actual facts/arguments do not matter. Whichever debater is the most attractive, whoever can put forward the edgiest, funniest, most deeply condensed and simple argument is going to win, irrespective of facts.
Political education can be, and should raised significant in a socialist society. That being said, Humans are ultimately (social) animals, and we are bound by our nature as animals, and as animals, we are nowhere near as free thinking, rational or intelligent as our consciousness tricks us into believing we are.
Ideally, the solution to the matter is not a hierarchical form of authoritarianism, but a horizontal, socially enforced form of authoritarianism. If somebody begins spouting anti communist ideas, they should be subtly isolated and bullied to the extent that they either are forced to conform, or they commit suicide. There are a lot of creative ways to do this in a self-reinforcing way without the need for outright state repression post-socialism.
Immigration is a fucking meme. Not even in the top 10 of real issues affecting the working class. Reactionaries blow it out of all proportion. You're really stupid if you think it's some existential problem by which ideologies live and die.
Noah Edwards
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Ethan Smith
I got Jim and Jason on discord together one time and that was hilarious. They'd make a great podcast dynamic
Jason called out Jim for appealing to turd positionists and incels and Jim called him a rice ☭TANKIE☭ LOL the irony is Jim gets laid way more often than Jason. He has a new girlfriend like every month. Usually some social democrat cunt whose big into veganism or trans exclusionary feminism. Gee I wonder why those don't work out…
Christian Butler
Mass immigration is volatile, but not the source of the average prole's issues. People quickly regret fascism within a few years, aside from the mentally damaged ones that believe in esotericism.
Zachary Reed
Even as close as a year ago this was an extremely unpopular opinion that almost no one had, especially given what happened in other leftist spaces.
It's not that it's bad as much as it is a fantasy. It doesn't exist, whether or not it should. Liberals happened, i.e. the same people who have total faith in liberal democracy and pluralism.
Adrian James
wrong. in a civilized socialist society, we will have state-compensated educators and psychologists whose task it is to help educate and integrate the non-violent anti-social elements into society.
what you're suggesting is as inhumane as what neoliberal bourgeois societies do, which is fire all educators and psychologists, replace them with privatised pill pushers (thanks to pharma industry) whose interest is also to keep their patients coming back because that's how they earn their money instead of a fixed income/compensation from the state, and add fuel to the fire with your idea of "bullying" and "isolation" by creating all sorts monstrosities we see today in USA and europe like racists, MRAs, MGTOWs, alt-right etc.
Mass immigration is a large concern for the first world working class. Land, including fertile land, is a finite resource. petroleum, water, electricity. the more people you have living a first-world standard of living, the less of these natural resources will be available for each first world person. it is simple mathematics. the more people you have living in a given region, the less available natural resources per capita. you can't just create real estate and petroleum out of thin air. If you guys had it your way, the economy would collapse and our standard of living would be somewhere in between first and third world.
Dylan Murphy
therefore to be a first world marxist is to either be ignorant of mathematics or to be a virtue signaller who wants to redistribute their own wealth to the third world.
Christopher Robinson
In the end the third world will conquer. This is already written user. You either accept it and collaborate or you wait until your inevitable destruction and painful demise.
so basically you are expecting first world working class people to work against their own material interests. which is the opposite of a classcuck (i was accused of being one in another thread because i said that mass immigration doesn't benefit the first world working class). i am extremely aware of my first world privilege. I am aware that we are getting fucked by the first world bourgeoisie. But I don't see any socialists who are anti-immigration now do I? So since my views are politically irrelevant, might as well just take the black pill.
Wyatt Perez
And to be clear, I understand that 3rd Positionism exists. But I am not a nationalist. I like brown and black girls. And had sex with a few women of colour (I've never had a black or Filipino girl though. I would like to). And I jack off to blacked porn so I'm ok with black men fucking white women. I just don't want to share land and natural resources with more people than I already have to. I'm a hermit ffs. I just want to buy a cheap little house in the boonies somewhere, get paid a good wage (I also made money on crypto shekels and I'm expecting an inheritance from my "middle-class" boomer parents) and enjoy my solitude. I don't want to be wage cucking 40+ hours/week, driving through rush hour traffic in crowded city traffic and have like fucking 4-5 room mates who smell like curry (literally) in a bedbug, mold infested apartment.
People who live in cities are miserable. And people who live in rural areas and towns are happier. People who live in cities tend to vote liberal. And people who live in rural areas and towns tend to vote conservative. Coincidence? I think not. People who are miserable in life tend to think that they need government to solve their problems. While people who live a good simple life tend to think that they don't need the government to solve their problems.
Blake Nguyen
The first world won't have any economic privilege in the end. We can already see this in the US. After this next crisis the new deal will be peeled away. There is no escape from this user. You cannot preserve this unnatural state. No one can. It is not how History is going to unfold.
Julian Edwards
...
Hunter Sullivan
Seriously go to Zig Forums if your going to sprout reformatted versions of their arguments
Wyatt Diaz
I didn't say that though. The first world proles will be reduced to the level of third worlders due to capital requiring more and more profits. As I said before, this has already begun in the US. This is basic stuff user. Also stop using the pol pot flag if you are going to get all butthurt about this topic. Especially when you are whining about the use of the word "unnatural."
You explicitly state that the third world will "Conquer" in the end Naturalist fallacies are literally a cornerstone of fascistic rhetoric
Joseph Martin
if you're happy and okay with how things are, there's no reason for you to be here then. switch off your computer, go outside and live a standard "normie" life of blissful ignorance. go get drunk at a halloween party tonight and "slay" some "thots" and then go on Zig Forums and laugh at silly frog memes.
i can't go along with the arrangement of this world. once you read marx, lenin, chomsky, listen to some of jacque fresco's talks, witness the worst depravities of mankind outside your first world bubble, see what imperialism (american exceptionalism) does to other countries, understand the immorality and anti-meritocratic nature of capitalism, etc. etc., you can never stop supporting the cause of class struggle, anti-imperialism and scientific socialism even if you're offered some comfy $150k programming job at google or whatever.
this is just ressentiment coming from someone like him
Owen Morales
Saudi Arabia is the head of Women's Rights
David James
We all know this, OP.
Chase Allen
Then we won't have socialism. The third world lacks the power to take on the first world. Your program is just the Gaza strip extended to a global scale - endless symbolic acts of resistance that accomplish nothing absent real leverage. Good luck with that.
Grayson Adams
how's this for personal freedom
Christopher Cruz
You have to be affiliated with someone to be able to break from them
Isaiah Hughes
he's 100% correct though
Tyler White
Clickbaity and needless sectarian title.
Hmm… seems about right, but I'm not sure the risk of allowing these reactionaries to talk can be offset by the benefits(mainly, recruiting more people).
Freedom of speech is only good when it gives us communists a platform to spread our ideas. It should not exist under socialism imo.
Cooper Taylor
that's just plain wrong freedom of speech can only be considered from a class perspective, it's the working class that needs to be free and have the means to spread its speech and discuss how to enforce its own rule and implement its own program however there's no room for the bourgeoisie, it cannot be allowed to have a voice, it doesn't and would never allow one for the proles either as the USA is proof of with its terror against socialists
Isaiah Flores
Leave the consumerist E-porky who buys clothing, makeup, shoes, purses, lingerie, accepts petron bucks for bourgeois fashion shows to me!
Gun rights? Huh? I am too busy looking cute and buying clothing to care about that straight white male privileged gun ownership!
why are people subscribed to this anyway never watched but it doesn't look the least bit interesting just by going what i saw posted around here waste of attention
Cameron Edwards
He claims as he's shitting out video after video on the psychopathically rigid banhammering site that is Youtube.
Benjamin Perez
Reminder they already came for the left decades ago and have perpetually been silencing us. Google COINTELPRO
Stop crying to defend your right-wing friends.
Parker Russell
exactly this fuck them, fuck free speech, they're all a bunch of hypocritical faggots who don't give a shit about any of that all, if it's their turn to occasionally eat the shit than that's not even their fair share, they're just being a bunch of whiny hypocrite pussies
Lincoln Cruz
maybe you should actually try watching it rather than literally judging a book by its cover
Her points are rather poignant and, evidently, deal in an area that you don't relate to or identify with. Different topic for a different audience. Nothing wrong with that, but don't give people shit for not being exactly like you.
I promise you, beyond any doubt, that 90% or more of the things you enjoy are wastes of attention. That's a meaningless nothing-phrase and is no measure for what you should and shouldn't watch.
Tyler Reed
Except this cover has "delusion" written all over it. Is he a communist? No. Discarded.
Nicholas Howard
Hes right they're gonna censor anything that isn't neoliberal NPC babble. Faceberg is gonna turn into a ghost town fulla bots in no time. Corporate capitalism in action. Zuckerfraud will bankrupt himself in no time.
Ryder Hill
Exactly. Remove roastie.
Nathan Phillips
Damn. I used to like this guy too. Not sure how anyone so woke pilled on crapitalism can be so completely blue pilled on free speech.
Angel Gomez
Kind of disappointed too.
William Clark
The Right's bitching over Antifa protesting outside Tucker Carlson's mansion once again proves my point about their double standard over free speech and free speech absolutism being an utterly futile cause - Jason Unruhe
Jason once again being completely right despite the honking and oinking from the liberal peanut gallery. He's not correct on third-worldism or class definitions but he's got stupid internet bullshit down pat.
Tru in the sense that they already were before Jones. Jones is used as an 'unfriendly face' for the project, though - "you don't like Alex Jones, well we censored him, therefore when we censor people who lean left but never actually lie you can just assume they're Alex Joneses!"
Overt incitement, fraud and that's basically it. Both have reasons besides the basic speech to be illegal.
Parker Morris
Its not a totally incorrect idea in the sense corporations and governments will censure those they want anyway regardless of "free speech", but I'd also rather not literally hand the tools and consent to do so to them without any kind resistance.
Adrian Thompson
Requesting
Matthew Flores
Popular Democratic party liberal comedian Stephen Colbert condemns protestors outside Tucker Carlson's mansion, calling it "an act of monstrous cowardice."
