What does /keftypol/ thinj aboutt American Civil War?

It was a good outcome

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The South won when reconstruction failed

I wonder if that quote was influenced by his correspondence with Marx.

Bill Sherman should have ran the south as a conquered nation as Governor-General and executed every slave owner While forcing all the poor whites and freed slaves to read. If that happened anime would never have existed and full communism would have been achieved by the 1940s.

Everyone believed in the labor theory of value in the 19th century, Adam Smith spread the idea. It fits in very well with bourgeois values.

Was there ever a race of bigger beta bitches than White Southerners? Imagine literally volunteering to die for a class of Rich Landowners who were exempt for military service who ran a medieval plantation economy where you couldn't get a farm job because slaves worked for free and there was no industrialization and no factory jobs because it threatened the economic base of those same faggy aristocrats.Imagine fighting for the right to be a cuck and never have a job.

JOJN BROWN DID NOTHING WRONG

European working class in WWI takes the cake. White Antebellum Southerners had cushy slave driving jobs, after the war they ended up sharecroppers picking cotton. They were cucked but at least they were given something else to fuck.

It was the inevitable outcome of two competing modes of production and their respective ruling classes, the race angle is essentially filler.

I think it is a fascinating period of American history and I think the modern left is smart to tackle the historical oppressive institutions that remains from the days of slavery and Reconstruction. Reconstruction didn't go far enough in a lot of areas.
I was a Confederateboo at one point in my reactionary days
It was an economic war fought over slavery and private property. The racial component didn't matter as much back then but obviously in hindsight it still affects the political-economy of AmeriKKKa til this day. Capitalism was more progressive and advanced than feudal slave-owner aristocracy.

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Now we know where Bolsenario comes from.

Honestly, the American left should adopt the symbols of the Union hardcore: John Brown as a radical civil rights leader, Sherman with his plans for land redistribution (Field Order 15), the songs & symbols of liberation. Building Socialist Patriotism is an important part of any leftwing movement IMO, and American socialists need to realise this.

What hill was that on, did they get napalmed?

Yankees are not something to be emulated yea carpet-baggering fuck.

Unnecessary battle only happened cause Southerners were autistic cunts. But, the big problem with US civil war is the Union clearly didn't kill enough confederates. 1 major reason the US is as fucked as it is now.

Fuck off nigger. Dixies = Ukrainians. Reactionary nations need to be dealt with.

As someone from Texas-German heritage I agree

All yankees need is death by rope or by lead. The North framed The South for all of its slavering and greedy banking takeovers. The North created The FED here in America and it will die with it once society turns to chaos.

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They should have seized all the land away from the slave owning literal traitors and distributed it among the former slaves that actually worked it, so that african americans wouldn't be in such a dogshit position nowadays

Yes. But only after jailing or hanging all confederates so as to not the make the ground fertile for something like the KKK.

I'm going to assume this is being said for exaggeration, but this would actually have been completely impossible post-war without reigniting another conflict and at the very least crippling the required population needed for reconstruction.

This and the workers in both the north and south should have killed all the bourgeoisie and created a dictatorship of the proletariat

Southern whites are cucked into oblivion subservient serfs they get purged from the Earth. I respect New Yorkers throwing a shit fit over fighting in the war because the rich could buy their way out of the draft. Southerners? "Yes suh bawss"

You filthy yankee coward…

It would have been worth reigniting the conflict and prolonging the reconstruction period to purge the South. And if truly there wouldn't have been enough people left at the end, then fuck it, turn the South into a nature reserve. Letting the Confederates live, long term, was far too harmful. They should have gotten the same treatment the Nazis got in Eastern Germany.

Example, southerner who thinks any sort of challenging of authority is cowardice, while those people were generally unarmed but experienced cannon fire to disperse the mob. The only coward was McClellan.

The Union is definitely overrated, yes they played a progressive role in eliminating slavery but they replaced it with an oppressive capitalist economy and even the freed slaves had to work in conditions only slightly better than before. That doesn't even get into their continued ethnic cleansing of the natives. Anyone who unironically supports the Confederacy should be shot though.

no, his genocidal actions against native americans can't be salvaged or excused.

these are good, you barely need to tweak this one:
Oh we'll rally round the flag, boys, we'll rally once again,[5]
Shouting the battle cry of freedom,
And we'll rally from the hillside, we'll gather from the plain,
Shouting the battle cry of freedom!

(Chorus)
The Union forever! Hurrah, boys, hurrah!
Down with the traitors, and up with the star;[6]
While we rally round the flag, boys, we rally once again,
Shouting the battle cry of freedom!

Oh we're springing to the call for three hundred thousand more,[a]
Shouting the battle cry of freedom!
And we'll fill the vacant ranks of our brothers gone before,[b]
Shouting the battle cry of freedom!

(Chorus)

We will welcome to our numbers the loyal, true and brave,
Shouting the battle cry of freedom!
And although he may be poor, he shall never be a slave,[c]
Shouting the battle cry of freedom!

(Chorus)

So we're springing to the call from the East and from the West,
Shouting the battle cry of Freedom;
And we'll hurl the rebel crew from the land we love the best,
Shouting the battle cry of Freedom.

Marx was alive during the Civil War, so you ought to see what he had to say about it. Here’s one famous quote from Marx.

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Raised on The Lost Cause. Basically you're taught in school (as far north as TN) that the civil war wasn't about slavery, it was about state's rights. I think hundreds of thousands of people died upholding a shitty system, but that doesn't mean we should lie about it and pretend those people died honorably. Many Americans still talk about The Civil War as though it's happening right now. Make no mistake, that's how Republicans frame their ideals.

He's obviously just drunk. Don't judge him lmao.

I know when I get drunk I get SUPER political and post a lot on here.

It shows.

Understandable, after shit like this happens:
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nueces_massacre

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Oh yeah. The Confederate / Dixie shit here reminds me of Ulster Loyalism. There is a little less of this in Texas than other ex-Confederate states, but a lot of it is this colonial attitude and their politics is this very expressive method where they try to remind everyone else that they're in "charge."

The neo-Confederate groups also do these demonstrations called "flagger" runs where they'll get in a convoy of lifted pickups festooned with Confederate flags and then drive for 150 miles. Kind of like an Ulster Loyalist parade. The ones in my state are fairly benign but there have been cases in other states where they'll drive by black children's birthday parties and threaten them – that happened last year I believe in Georgia (?) and some of the people who did it got several years in prison for ethnic intimidation.

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You know that Ulster Loyalism is like the second major creator of Neo-Nazis? You know, Combat 18 and etc were made from it.

Also one side of my family is Texas-German and the other side is "Dixie." The Texas-German side is quite Christian and conservative but I never saw any Confederate shit around. Ever. The family was more – like I said – Christian and austere in that German kind of way. Very old-style Protestant. The other side of the family was more "redneck" I guess and racist (anti-black specifically), not particularly religious at all, and my cousins on that side of the family would have a Confederate flag up on a wall in their room and so on. It's really about being the dominant ethnic group over blacks more than anything.

Doesn't surprise me. I have also protested against these groups in the U.S. and they would roll up flying Confederate and U.S. flags and flipping middle fingers in the air while shouting "fuck you pussy!" And they would deliberately pick out "liberal" cities to do these marches. Like I said, reminded me a lot of those Loyalist parades in Northern Ireland that would try to parade into Catholic areas as a provocation and a "reminder" about who's on top. I hate them and I hope they choke on their own fumes

While it was to a degree about slavery, it was definitely not for the moral reasons taught up here in the North either. The war was an economic one between the newly emerging bourgeoisie industries trying to make headway in the south and the old slave plantation economy which already made up the backbone of the south (this becomes very apparent when reading the states reasons for secession), plain and simple. The Union leadership made it very clear that they didn't really care about slavery save for the most adamant abolitionists. The only reason slavery died was because it was no longer efficient or profitable to keep it and so conflict sprang up between those pursuing those greater profits. Liberals ignore this and reduce it to moral reasoning like "slavery is bad and people eventually discovered it was bad later on".

Me too, it also doesn't help that I cannot possibly be less sympathetic to the Confederacy. Being a New Yorker and pic related.

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Let's get one thing straight - the US was never good. Even if it was, it was only "good" for short amounts of time. However, one thing I always like to mention is that the whole time there have been activists and revolutionaries who tried to make a difference.

Time after time, we lost.

I think the Union's victory in the ACW marks the one time America did something good for once.

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Pretty much the only good take on US history.

the only time U.S. militarism was good was against dixiefags.

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Well, if a second one breaks out, we all know what the war DJ's are gonna play on loop

youtube.com/watch?v=gvjOG5gboFU

They blew it immediately afterwards though.

Irish brigades were always cool as fuck though. San Patricio's ooowooo

Fenian raids

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Also it would have been baller as fuck to scream The Internationale in German while 200 other dudes while blasting away at Confederates

Yeah okay that's nice but one side fought explicitly for the right to own human beings and the other didn't.

the internationale didn't existed back then, learn some history first.

Please enjoy this screenshot I took from the movie “Gettysburg” for the purposes of leftist Unionposting.

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Tbh I think it should go without saying that if racism, oppression, imperialism, exploitation, slavery, etc are all integral parts of American history, then resistance to these things is as well. There’s a lot to work with in American history that can be used to craft a progressive incarnation of American national identity. That’s why I love shit like pic related, despite the historical complexities of America’s relationship to fascism and the Nazis. It invokes a part of American identity that can be useful in bringing people to our cause. It will be a lot easier to convince Americans to become socialists if we can convince them that socialism and its ideals are as American as apple pie, instead of telling them that they need to reject everything they know about themselves.

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America is not redeemable in its current form. Appealing to American Civic religion/nationalism or whatever won't help us spread socialism there. Their entire government exists to destroy socialism at home and abroad. Also settler colonialism is incompatible with socialism.

I disagree, people won’t embrace a movement that constantly tells them how evil and bad they are. But they will embrace one that tells them that they are fulfilling centuries of struggle of the American people against the chains of capital.
True, which is why imagery like the American Revolution is useful, despite its many regressive elements. It shouldn’t be hard to convince Americans of the moral correctness of revolt and subversion of the state if we do it through a lens, imagery, and rhetoric that they are already immersed in.
Of course, but all forms of nationalism are selective, even reactionary nationalism. It’s a question of emphasizing particular aspects of American history and downplaying others. Just like reactionaries downplay America’s violent labour struggles and other progressive aspects of its history.

That shit is retarded though. The US intervened in WWII to save the Third Reich and turn it into NATO. The Gadsden Flag is for reactionaries. If you actually want to highlight resistance to US slavery, fascism, and imperialism, then just fucking do it! Talk about the abolitionists, civil rights activists, union workers, and so on! Americanisms are reactionary.

Karl Marx spoke favorably of Abraham Lincoln. So Marxism won the Civil War, and the present nation of the US is a Marxist state.

Little by little, people try to fix their countries all around the world, but they continuously lose to reactionaries. Why?

Because reactionaries hold value to things that should have no value. Predetermined opinions based on race and religion are still rampant in America, despite people's best efforts.

It's easy to sway people with said feelings of tradition, family, and faith (especially when they point out how leftists are burning the flag and doing something as simple as kneeling).

For a side that preaches shit like "facts don't care about your feelings," their entire ideology is extremely based on Judeo-Christian values (cough PragerU) and respect for those who put you here in the first place.

Respect the founding fathers. Why? Because they made the country you're living in. Respect the flag. Why? Because veterans die for that flag.

Q: Why are immigrants bad?
A: My people are from this side of this piece of land, therefore we are better than everyone else because we live here. If you're not from here, you aren't good enough.

or

Q: Why do you think whites are the master race?
A: People with my skin color made a bunch of shit that we still use today, therefore we're the best.

See? They need to give everything a higher meaning, but they call those who think otherwise "social Marxist nihilists" because they don't "believe" in spirit and patriotism.

It's why Beto just lost to Cruz, it's why Trump won, it's why over half the seats in the senate are red, and it's why people all across the country fly Confederate flags despite having no southern background.

How so? Doesn't the LTV claim that the bourgeoisie provide no value?

yeah, its all because of idealism, definitely no material basis, no gerrymandering, no hostile bourgeois press, no bourgeois dictatorship, none of that. People just dumb an' shit. Simple.

A lot of this reminds me of drag shows. It's playing at a constructed image of masculinity / southerness / Texan-ness. (I am Texan.) Cruz's last event before the election was a joint called the "Redneck Country Club" which is this bourgie, multi-million-dollar bar and grill and event venue in suburban Houston that caters to cul-de-sac cowboys who moved to Texas from Maryland and Michigan and California but who dress up and play John Wayne. They have a General Lee (the car with the Confederate flag on top) reproduction.

But yeah, like you said it's all artifice given meaning. Texans in the 19th century looked down on cowboys (many of them were Mexican) and thought of them as uneducated, shit-job-doers. Cow-BOY was pejorative. If you owned a ranch with cattle you were a "cattleman" which was acceptable.

Gerrymandering doesn’t affect the senate, it’s meant to win over the house, which won against reactionaries. Imo, the DNC is a necessary evil to support until the destruction of the two party system. It’s easier for socialists to make it with the DNC, the GOP can only lose if they win. It sucks, but that’s what we’re working with right now. The bourgeois press & capitalists thrive with the GOP, and their heads are up their asses with their racist, puritan, and divisive ideology. Look at how many workers voted Trump, look at how many workers love capitalists and… hate workers? Do they ever make sense? No. Why? Because “we’re right simply because we’re right.”

I wasn’t necessarily blaming the results of this election outcome on this insanity, I was more or less explaining why the right wing has so much support from uneducated dixiefags & capitalists. Regardless of polls and voter turnout, there are many more silent or “shy” supporters out there in massive numbers. Every time we think we’ve progressed, we’re proven otherwise. It’s 2018 and someone like Cruz, not to mention the disaster that was the 2016 election. All this just points to the fact that we're simply fighting an enemy that’s too brainwashed and indoctrinated with predetermined notions and beliefs.

The older they get, the less of a chance they have of redemption and/or possible conversion to the revolution. It’s been explained many times why the right wing seems less like an ideology and more like a religious cult.

fuck off Zig Forums

i grew up in rural california. fun fact, the civil war had brush skirmishes and stuff out here, mostly fought by local militias versus pinkerton-esque thugs (though nobody knows for sure if actual pinks where involved.)

the most famous case locally? there was a literal death camp for native americans just up the road. they'd round up any natives that weren't starving to death in the alpine sierra trying to hide from the locals involved and work them to death mining. for the express purpose of extermination.

so every time i see a confederate flag being flown around here, i literally want to kill the motherfucker, but the insanely genocidal history of california is repressed by the state so not many people understand just how horrible of a human being you have to be to say the stars & bars is about 'heritage' in what was some of the most brutal colonialism seen outside africa/nazi germany

you liberals are just the worst

So we can agree its not that the union was righteous, it was that confederacy was garbage

But america is literally liberalism

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This is what Christian communism looks like.

I mean Billy Bragg kinda did:
youtu.be/DwbzxemJZIc

Both sides were kiked as fuck, however I'd rather have a US confederacy (with states having more power individually over the Fed) than how it ended up as.

The south was going to abolish slavery anyways.

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I mean tbf, he is right: economic pressures would have meant abolition by the 1890s, but it would have likely just created a formalised system of sharecropped, which is effectively feudalism.

Thus why it is good that the war happened. America paid a price for its greed.

It's more like that eventually, if the south didn't have an autistic fit over more efficient factory and mill work making slave labour both unesscessary and outdated, the federal government would abolish slavery by both making it illegal and compensating slave owners for their freed slaves like in Europe. But this would most likely still result in what said given both how agriculture and the economy in the US functioned.

The American legal system is largely incapable of depriving bourg of property. The war would have happened eventually. However it probably would have been a lot smaller.

Yeah, I have a hard time believing some sort of autistic fit like I mentioned wouldn't happen eventually, even if it was just some small skirmishes.

my fucking god…

Nah bro. Well, counter-factual history is pretty amateurish since things didn't work out that way. "The south" didn't make decisions. Slave owners made decisions and they controlled most of the wealth. I believe the total value of slaves in 1860 was greater than everything else in the U.S. combined except for the land. That's a lot of wealth and what made bloodless abolition difficult.

You also have to look at how this was driving expansion westward. A slave-based agricultural economy in South Carolina has limits to growth: you can only have X number of slaves per acre before production starts becoming inefficient. Sooner or later the economy will stagnate. Solution: Territorial expansion (Texas, other parts of Mexico, Cuba, Nicaragua, etc.) and the conversion of old slave states into breeding factories for export. This was orchestrated by well-organized conspiracies of slave owning elites in formations such as the Knights of the Golden Circle.

Conflict was inevitable in states such as Kansas when Free Soilers ran into slaver paramilitaries. And as control of the national government decided whether slavery would continue to expand, once the north's population grew to such an extent that a united northern bloc could win a general election, then slavery was cooked unless the slavers in the South seceded and went to war.

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didn't prominent southerners imagine a giant slave empire from the caribbean to south america? i feel like i remember reading something like that some time ago.

the confederate dogs desrerved worse. sherman should have burned the rest of the south and the federal government should have adopted political terror during reconstruction.

Yup. That was the "Golden Circle." Reading about the Antebellum period is also crazy because you'd have… like… the governor of Louisiana funding a private army (or "filibusters") to invade Cuba, advertising for recruits in newspapers, and then they would invade and lose a battle with Spanish troops and get executed en masse. And the president and northerners wouldn't hear about it until a month after the invasion failed because it took that long for news to travel.

You're forgetting that the combatants of the south weren't all involved in slave trade or the CSA's reactionary bullshit. Most of them were poor farmers and various other workers. The south was a shithole.

The only people I blame for the CSA's scumfuckery are the officers and politicians.

I fucking hate the CSA. I hate the reason they formed. I hate the fact that their flag still flies.
Who I hate more are the orchestrators of that whole stupid fucking movement, and the people who still think that the CSA is anything less than a reactionary government that delivers more empty promises to its workers.

…but anyone who still agrees with them in 2018 are scumbags.

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perhaps so, but wouldnt you say southern culture was racist to the core? and the farmers went to fight to defend the confederacy, which itself as you know was formed explicitly to defend the right of slavery as it was becoming increasingly indefensible in the north, i don't think we can write them off as innocent and tricked, much like i dont think german soldiers can be written off as innocent automatically. don't get me wrong though, i don't think they should have gone around murdering every single confederate soldier, but that officers, politicians (especially jeff davis that filthy rat), the landowning and slaveowning classes, and other pro-slavery elements in society should have been rooted out mercilessly, and political terror used to root out groups like the KKK that formed after the defeat of the confederacy. certainly after lincoln was assassinated the need for a purge in the south was obvious in my opinion.

i recall reading that shermans original plan was to among other things do things such as executing slaver-aristocrats, expropriating plantations, etc., disarm southerners and the confederate armies and to then arm the black slaves with their masters weapons and use them as a sort of police force/militia to oversee the end of slavery. instead, lincoln was assassinated and the notion of giving the freed slaves their own land and so on disappeared into thin air and we got shit like jim crow and another 100+ years of humiliation for black people.