What does Zig Forums especially ☭TANKIE☭s think about Balts mainly Lithuanians demanding various companies like Walmart,Adidas and now Amazon to stop selling shirts and other goods with Soviet symbols? They have started hasthag WhyNotSwastika and now flooding (as much as they can) Amazon facebook page.
Most Balts are very apolitical. Most of these trolls are buthurt ultra-right younger generation,that does not represent all of Balts, but I am still curious what you guys think.
Other urls found in this thread:
whitewolfpack.com
en.wikipedia.org
strategic-culture.org
en.wikipedia.org
euronews.com
twitter.com
Sorry posted twice because of website problems.
it's baffles me especially since the Baltic states were pretty much the best place to be in the USSR.
also i don't know how many times i've seen the "iF Ur goNnA BaN dA swAstIKA deN whY nOt bAN thE sWaSTika???" argument. i remember people complained about nationstates banning swastika flags and all the """centrists""" bitched about how they should ban the hammer and sickle as well because muh gorillions.
you lost me there m8
meant to say "if ur gonna ban da swastika den why not ban the hammer and sickle" woopsie daisy.
most leftists are against dark side of Zionism, no one want's to genocide the Jews unlike some right wingers.
They should have ethnically replace them like China is doing to Tibet.
genocide is a bit to rough, but koretizatsiya of certain nations was a costly mistake for the Soviets
genocide's a stretch from just "no".
any jew that identifies as such, belongs to the jewish community, which means the jew is inherently elitist, an exploiter and if he isn't an exploiter then he's an exploitation enabler.
the jewish community should be dismantled and all jews mentally rehabilitated.
so when you say "Jews: yes", you lose me, as well as many if not most socialists, of all kinds.
lurk before you try to false flag, its a dead giveaway when you use a flag that no one uses, smh
They already tried that, thats why they are so butthurt about the russians in the first place. Estonia is like 30% russian, according to a an estonian guy I know.
Also thats a retarded idea and not beneficial to solidarity in any way. I think it would be better to have a program that encourages as much trans-union living in youth as possible. Military service? You will be serving in a unit of mixed ethnicities in a country not your own. Studying? Highly encouraged studying in other nations.
These things encourage cultural mixing on equal terms and promote transnational marriages, which is the key to creating a feeling of cohesion, while not actually fucking ethnically replacing people.
lurk what? what the fuck are you even talking about?
I'm an Argentine, that's why I chose el Che's flag
So why the massive hate for Jews?
what makes the Jews so special to you? If the left bar said "Christian" or "Mormon" or "Scientologist" you wouldn't think twice about "no".
are you fucking serious?
I literally explained it in one of my previous posts.
I didn't made the graph, and they aren't special to leftists they are special to right winger who can't to gas the kikes
Yes I am serious, your post didn't contain anything serious. most people can be accused of identifying to a certain group. You yourself called yourself an Argentine
sorry other thread but this one was bigger
More like 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧Argentine🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧
Jews are isolationist (they identify as belonging to the jewish community and not the nation they're leeching off, sometimes this is so extreme they have outrageously ridiculous accents as if they were from the other side of the world even though they grew up 2 blocks away from you), they're elitists (the more you have the more you're worth, and the more attention you're being paid, the more influence you have within their community, and they favor jews over the rest of the populace) and they're exploiters (I seriously hope you don't expect me to explain this point), capitalism has benefitted them, the idea of the jews being a problem was the norm until those retarded nazis genocided them and it became taboo to question them in the slightest, even fucking Marx addressed the jewish problem more than once.
the jewish community is the epitome of the filthy bourgeosie that subjugates workers for their own gain.
what? most socialists hate the jewish community.
also, why do you keep talking to me/about me as if I wanted to genocide them?
While i have some "healthy" antisemetism(thanks to Ben Shapiro) but they are not all rich many socialists were jewish(Rosa,Trotsky etc)
Tho you could say that most of them were atheists but still
On the other hand, the only jewish pople i know are multi-millioners
Good points. Still i dont think moving people from A to B should be counted as genocide.
who identified as socialists above all else.
they do not count as jews since they didn't belong to the jewish community, and you forgot the most important of the socialists with jewish origins, Karl Marx, and as I pointed out in my other post (and this lad here posted a quote by him ), even Karl Marx himself hated the jewish community because of it's exploitative nature among other things.
again, hating the jewish community from an anti capitalist standpoint was the norm until those retarded Nazis genocided them and it became taboo to criticize them in the slightest.
what the fuck are you even? why do you keep defending jews?
no socialist I know would ever defend them.
Because you assume that general population is just as rabidly anti-communist/ultra-nationalist as the government. However, government in Baltics is much closer to occupation administration than real representatives of the people. Though, decades of propaganda shifted perception of significant share of population to the government's side (especially, younger ones).
They explicitly did not.
Government in Batlics needed an explanation why Communism Bad (by presenting Socialism as foreign ideas of invaders) and a justification to stay in power despite not doing anything (we must concentrate on saving our national identity from Russians!). Hence the ultra-nationalist propaganda. Not because of something that happened in the past (especially, because it did not happen).
You are a dumb asshole. That quote isn't about Marx hating Jews. Read the fucking material you retard fuckdump.
So this is the image 'people' are posting along with the #WhyNotSwastika
this is correct
however it should be also noted that most Balts are very apolitical and uncaring. There is a nostalgia for Soviet times among older people however there is young neo-'''inteligentsia' that is very reactionary. It is a very loud minority.
this is correct
however it should be also noted that most Baltic countries already had a Russian minority and most Russians live in certain places. For example most Russian city in Estonia is Tartu and Talinn.
That's what Soviets did.
Less so, but Soviets also practiced this.
that's how yours truly came to be.
As I said, Baltics have little proper political life. I.e. it's not that local population is inherently/culturally apolitical, but there isn't much of a chance for locals to participate in political life to develop political culture (which is a problem for many third world pseudo-democracies and dictatorships).
Are you saying only "ethnostate" can possess internal stability?
And your point is?
As opposed to highly democratic countries like the US?
No,I am saying that Baltics were not Russified by Soviets but had Russian minority population because of close proximity and related history.
No, I am saying
Soviets did not engage in Russification of Baltic, Baltics already had Russian presence in certain places.
Good point. bourgeois representative democracy is a scam.
what the fuck man
If a large part of those people die in the process I think it should.
why was he banned tho?
We are comparing the amount of "caring" about politics population exhibits. Politics in US might be a theater, but population is involved in it more than in Baltics.
Ah. Now I understand.
Do you not see that he is a braindamaged polyp?
One the actually relevant happenings in the world
These are the Waiapi, an ancient tribe living in Brazil's Amazon rainforest but now fearing invasion by international mining companies.
Leading AFP reporters to a tiny settlement of palm-thatched huts hidden in foliage, the tribesmen streaked in red and black dye vow to defend their territory. They brandish six-foot (two-meter) bows and arrows to reinforce the point.
"We'll keep fighting," says Tapayona Waiapi, 36, in the settlement called Pinoty. "When the companies come we'll keep resisting. If the Brazilian government sends soldiers to kill people, we'll keep resisting until the last of us is dead."
The Waiapi indigenous reserve is in pristine rainforest near the eastern end of the Amazon river. It is part of a much larger conservation zone called Renca, covering an area the size of Switzerland.
Surrounded by rivers and towering trees, the tribe operates almost entirely according to its own laws, with a way of life at times closer to the Stone Age than the 21st century.
Yet modern Brazil is barely a few hours' drive away.
And now the center-right government is pushing to open Renca to international mining companies who covet the rich deposits of gold and other metals hidden under the sea of green.
In August, President Michel Temer abruptly ended mining restrictions in swaths of Renca, sparking an outcry from environmentalists and celebrity campaigners like Leonardo DiCaprio.
Temer backtracked in September. However, the Waiapi, who were nearly wiped out by disease after being discovered by outsiders in the 1970s, remain terrified.
The rainforest, says 35-year-old Moi Waiapi, another inhabitant of Pinoty, "is the foundation for our survival."
not really, no, as far as I could tell he wasn't justifying a holocaust or hating jewish people based on something they didn't choose, but rather on their afilliation with a community that has been questioned for centuries from a communist viewpoint.
he seemed particularly passionate about it sure, but still.
So what do you guys think about such stupidity? Are you rooting for bezos to not do anything?
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what do you mean? we've made it pretty clear that it's just another example of balts being pissy retards. nothing else to be said, really.
Do you think that amazon should comply?
Is it worth mentioning issue?
Ban me if you wanna, but more and more each day I honestly think the Soviets should've genocided the Eastern Europeans and instead replaced them with Russians. This isn't for MUH RACE or being genocidal manics, but to ensure the survival of Communism. Morality is a spook right? There are no bad tactics, only bad targets.
no
As such I see nothing at all with China genociding all those Turks or Tibetans like the Liberals complain about. Fuck Morals. There is only the survival of Communism and the defeat of Capitalism at stake.
why do you want the survival of communism and the defeat of capitalism?
As much as I would love to agree with you, there exists also reactionary Russians and revolutionary Bats. Problem is that most of both Balts and Russians are brainlets. Zombies who engage in such trash are laud minority, thought.
Lol. Marx criticized Judaism like all religions but especially Judaism since he had origins in a formerly Jewish family that converted to Protestantism. A leftist never should make defening a religious group its goal because it ceases to be leftist that very moment. The radical pro-Jewish initiative in the left was caused by New Left morons bringing in liberal IDPOL trying to use this as a form of populism. Truly sad that so many posters here go insane when seeing a Marx quote speaking negatively of Jews and their religion. It's not like he wanted to genocide them or anything. Lmao.
And personally I think it should be avoided to let actual fundamentalists into your leftist groups. Maybe moderate religious people can be fine but yeah that's that. I also agree that it's not really that relevant that non-practizing "jewish" Socialists got former ties to that group. As Socialists we certainly shouldn't pick up the stupid idea of Jews bing some ethnic hivemind as the different Jewish groups are broadly ethnically different. Espcially the Askhenazis are ironically the most European-mixed Jews to the Nazis demise.
But anyways… Where Mr. Che poster was truly wrong and spooked was at the point he assumed there is a "Jewish Community" that is 100% bourgeoise. The Bundists were a great ANTI-ZIONIST and ANTI-CAPITALIST Jewish Socialist movement. Marx certainly would have been more accepting of them as of the classical Capitalist merchants. I also would like to point out that Jews outside of Europe and Palestine aren't even in the higher classes. Espcailly in the Caucasus regions they just live in small village communites in the mountains. Mostly farmers. And not even Kulak tier ones.
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Not letting reactionaries reinstall their God Emperor for life isn't Genocide
Because Soviet symbols here are associated with Russian nationalism and not socialism
You have russians preaching the restoration of Russian rule, not because they are socialist but they want their Russian empire back.
They tried that which is why we hate them now and want them gone.
Associated by the state propaganda.
Note the distinct lack of actually Socialist parties in Baltics. I.e. it is not that there is a separate Socialist movement, but existing Socialist movement is suppressed under the guise of resisting Russians.
When you have people marching with the hammer and sickle together with the black orange band chanting in Russian calling for the end of your country you wouldnt like that.
And no body who carries a hammer and sickle here(Latvia) is a leftist
They also support Putin and general Russian expansionism.
I have lived in a Russian majority city (Daugavpils) for 6 years and I can tell you first word that none of them are really socialist.
Also,we do have a lack of left wing parties precisely because of this ethnic divide.(propaganda too logically) but even the Latvian Russian's union which claims to be socialist is actually very reactionary and supported by reactionaries mostly.
Also it's not suppressed it's just that no one wants to associate with them cause they are instantly overran by putinophilies and Russian nationalists
But a socdem party here was killed due to government corruption and bribes, bribed a splinter party to kill them
So, let me get this straight:
1) "your country" promotes rabid Nazi apologia and whitewashes genocide of those people
2) "your country" promotes rabid propaganda against those people that ranges from attributing to them responsibility for some fictional crimes (through their ancestors, mind you!), to open claims of their inherent cultural and genetic deficiency
3) "your country" robs them, by depriving them from participation in privatization and subjecting to extortion from language police
4) "your country" promotes apartheid - revokes their rights as citizens and reduces their legal status below that of a foreigner
5) "your country" deprives them from the right to use their language not only in the schools they paid for with their taxes, but even in the private schools.
And now you say that they are in the wrong for wanting to end "your country"? If anything is a testament of their Socialist ideas is it they are still not advocating for a wholesale genocide of your people - even this would've been found perfectly excusable by many.
Given your track record, I'm assuming that the only "Left" you recognize is National "Socialist".
And this divide, who was it that created it? Was it not "your country" that you defend so much?
Note how explanation that any Socialist magically becomes Russian agent seems to you much more probable than Right-wing media consistently painting any Socialist activity as Russian nationalism.
Weird thing is the koreans from DPRK which went through famine hell in the 90s because of the USSR dissolution are still extremely anti-capitalist and is not envious of the imperialist west. Koreans are fucking based, Lithuanians are cringe.
Good comment.Despite being born in baltics, more and more I feel that Mao was right all along.
The Little Red Book is top-tier literature.
I was out with a few female friends a couple weekends ago and I was very drunk. My one friend met this Lithuanian guy and I started talking about communism (like I do quite frequently when I drink too much). The guy asked me if I thought the Soviets had it right, to which I replied "Yes" and jokingly said "Stalin did nothing wrong." He thought I was being 100% serious and he said Stalin sent his grandparents to gulags and a small verbal altercation broke out between me and the guy and one of his friends. They left a few minutes later. I felt kind of bad about it the next day but my friends thought it was funny. Why do Balts especially dislike communism? They're like the only people that don't regret the collapse. Didn't they have the highest standard of living out of all the SSRs?
Nationalism is one hell of a drug.
That's why they hated it so much. Lithuania was already a developed country, so communist rule had little benefit to them.
In comparison, Hungary was a total shithole before the reds took over, so the majority of its current citizens thought the planned system was pretty good.
I see, that makes sense. Don't you think they would've been worse off without the Soviets though? They just didn't have the population or land to go about developing heavy industry like the Soviets were able to. The Soviets even allowed them a great deal of ethnic autonomy right? I feel like they were such a small country that they were either going to be absorbed by the Nazis for muh lebensraum or be given relative security and economic prosperity (along with existence) by the Soviets.
It wasn't. All pre-WW2 Baltics were failed states with economies based on agriculture (which was medieval-tier).
This.
They were basically banana republics in Europe (dictatorships).
I'm thinking of a different country then? Guessing it was just nationalism.
Really the only country that conquered the soviets that was highly developed was Checkoslovaquia, East Germany was not higly developed as the developed parts were in the west or the parts that went into Poland (Silesia).
And even then, there was a world war that pretty much destroyed everything, so that's a thing.
Oh, I'm fucking stupid. I was reading about the Prague Spring after a thread yesterday and it stuck in my mind.
fuck off :)
Sorry, my mother language is spanish and I'm not in my best moment.
end yourself :)
Both Baltic and Czechoslovakia were well developed. Estonia and Latvia inherited a lot of industry from Russian Empire and Czechoslovakia most of industry of Austria-Hungary.
As an example
en.wikipedia.org
Having said that Baltics were far better under socialism than they ever were and 'intelligentsia' there is unreasonably reactionary and deserves to be send to Gulag.
nice save!
Last of the Mohicans anyone?
What is now East Germany was infact the highest developed part in terms of industry, research and wealth till 1945 and much more populous than today too. Back then Saxony scored 8 times more patents per capita than the German average while Berlin/Prussia had the most big companies as well as the most important banks and stock exchange. Frankfurt/Main became Germany's financial center only after 1945 as all porkies moved to the west after 1945.
Silesia, Eastern Prussia and Bavaria were the least developed parts of Germany before the partition. Bavaria had a lot of luck though, because former Prussian and Saxon porky companies such as Siemens, Allianz, Audi, AEG moved there.
As an East German i have to say that Stalin's occupation policy, the MASSIVE reparations (we had to pay for ALL German states including NRW, BaWü and Bavaria) and extremely fast soviet-style collectivization was not very wise, it should have been a much more slower, gradual and orderly transition.
However, except the damn wall i have nothing to complain about life in GDR, iirc the UN listed us as the worlds number 15 or so in terms of living standard in some 1980s or 1970s ranking which seems about right. Maybe that's why most East Germans are hating neither on GDR nor soviet symbols and we don't destroy memorials from cold war times either.
I've never been to Poland and the Baltics before 1989, but i doubt that they had it really significantly worse than us, so the rampant anti-communism and the love for all things reactionary, nazi, capitalist and usa over there always kinda baffles me.
that's really inaccurate and wrong
poland had a huge steel industry later on which was thanks to formerly german mining
which the then DDR was kinda cut off from
also the east german industry was far from what they had in the Ruhrgebiet
your post is just wrong on so many of its claims i wont even bother to go more into it
and the soviets didn't just take shit away, they did help building
meanwhile it was the western allied bombings that had economic sabotage in mind rather than destroying german war industry, it's why they kept dropping shitloads of bombs way past the point of necessity, with strong focus on the east
I remember when I was young and just generally ignorant of cultural hang ups. I was talking with this feminist about work and unemployment, and I brought up the Soviet Union and how it had a good male to female worker ratio, low unemployment, and how it had empowered women and men who were uneducated.
As soon as I mentioned ussr, I could sense that the conversation had dipped into a point of no return. Turns out she was from Lithuania. The conversation moved, instantly, on to safer topics, and it has been that way ever since.
If, I were to poke the hornets nest again, what are some irrefutable pro Lithuania communist examples to discuss?
I knew you would jump on me because i critisized the USSR and your idol Stalin who was a very capable military, but mediocre at best as well as an opportunist in terms of foreign politics, especially with regard to occupation policy in Germany.
Not at all.
Upper Silesia's mining was pretty much the only industry Silesia had, Silesia was mostly agrarian just like most of Bavaria. Other than a few industry clusters in Franconia and Munich Bavaria was mostly agrarian until 1950 and dependent on subsidies from other states, infact they were still net receivers in the 1990ies.
The GDR had it's own steel and mining industry i.e. Eisenhüttenstadt, Lauchhammer etc.
Yes, the Ruhrgebiet was and still is the most popoulus area in Germany and of course it had a lot of industry, mostly coal, steel, arms and chemicals. Prussia/Brandenburg, Berlin in particular, had everything from finance, media+entertainment, pharma/chemicals, electronics, engineering and services. Before 1945 Germany's main industry clusters in engineering, tools making, cars, textiles as well as most of the biggest publishers and printers were located in BaWü and Saxony. There was a reason why the allies bombed Berlin and all big cities in Saxony the most, while in e.g. Bavaria only Franconian cities were heavily hit.
Unfortunately, that's exactly what they did. Again, the GDR payed war reparations for all German states, including the western ones, to the USSR. The total sum actually amounted to a multiple of the sum whole Western Europe received in Marshal funds. What's more, they demounted everything they deemed useful and exported it to USSR territory, including railway tracks and whole factories. Sometimes they would close down factories for completely arbitrary reasons, for example the Horch luxury car factory in Zwickau. That incident prompted Audi and DKW (euro market leader in motorcycles at the time) to move their entire factory, including most of the engineering staff and workers, to Bavaria for good. Siemens, Lufthansa, Allianz and Deutsche Bank of Berlin moved to Munich, Bonn and Frankfurt respectively, Carl Zeiss of Jena to BaWü, Dresdner Bank to Frankfurt, all the big publishers such as Brockhaus, Reclam, Insel etc. from Leipzig to Munich or Frankfurt. That massive influx of capital and brain was a HUUUUUGE economic advantage for Western Germany directly after the war and during Cold War while the GDR had to deal with a huge loss of both capital and brain due to reparations, demounting and far too quick collectivization and centralization conducted by the soviet occupation staff.
That might be true for countries such as Afghanistan, Vietnam and so on, however over here it was the other way around. We helped them building and (re)building after the war, including their space program.
For the record, i don't hate neither the USSR nor Stalin, just because i happen to critisize certain issues.
Ugh don't do this. Cringe as hell. That said I got into a small altercation with a rich czech stock broker once when I was drunk and stoned. He was also turned out to be a libertarian. Don't remember what I said to piss him off, but I kinda praised Lenin so it probably started there. In his mind they were a Soviet colony or something so I dropped the edgy pro-Soviet line and just argued against his retarded right-libertarianism for a while. In my mind I did a good job at it but I was pretty drunk so you never know.
Don't trust politically correct Wikipedia too much. It is a propaganda machine.
Partially true, but you are missing important bits:
1) Russian Empire didn't have "a lot of industry".
2) a lot of Baltic industry was either evacuated or relied on factories based in Russia proper (ex. Russo-Balt factory in Latvia and Nobel & Lessner's shipyard in Estonia) and got shut down.
3) a lot of industry that remained simply didn't survive until the end of 30s (Great Depression).
To put things into perspective, picrelated is GNP per capita of the early interbellum - "industrial" Estonia and Latvia are basically the same as NEP Russia (despite Soviets inheriting much lower share of industry), with Lithuania being noticeably worse.
I.e. neither Estonia nor Latvia inherited enough industry for it to be a game-changer, to put them on the same level as industrial nations.
No specific numbers, no basis for statements. It's not even clear what "Western standard" was, as, for example, Italian standard was quite low at the time (thanks to Fascism). As for "low prices", I'm guessing those are low prices for food (I've seen mentions of industrial consumer goods being very expensive, while agricultural very cheap).
NB: I must say I've never seen contemporaries mention or imply high (or even comparable to Western) standard of living in Baltics during interbellum period. For example, internal reports from Soviet embassy in 1940 (when Soviets were debating if Socialist revolution will be supported by Lithuanians) consistently mention very low wages and low standards of living.
To put things into perspective: from 1949 and up to 1966 every single year natural increase was higher than that 9.7 (usually higher than 11).
AFAIK only (foreign-owned) light industry and food processing were developing. Heavy industry went under.
Either way, by 1940 three quarters (IIRC, 77%) of Lithuanian workers were working in agricultural sector and it constituted 70% of export. I.e. there was no way to count Lithuania as developed (i.e. as industrial or semi-industrial) nation.
Because part of younger generation is apolitical brainlets, who just want to live in London or Paris. It's quite insane how people can work shit jobs in the west and feel cool, yet there is stigma working similar job at home even if purchasing power is similar. Having said that Balts, and overall most of Eastern Europeans who aren't ultra pro west are good people.
What makes one source more correct than another?
Either way you know quite a lot about Baltic. Care to share any good sources?
Additionally do you know anything about life in colonized countries like India during British occupation?
I don't understand the question.
Are you asking why statement "A is true" is less trustworthy than "B is true because [solid reasoning], [hard data], [several independent sources of hard data]"? It should be obvious.
Or why pro-Liberal articles printed in the state where you can literally get prison sentence for promoting Communism are inherently suspect and every politicized claim they make requires cross-checking? It also should be obvious.
On what? Geography? Archeology? Cultural significance of traditional patterns?
Also, don't forget to clarify the languages you can read.
Nobody can honestly claim that they don't know anything about it.
Would you mind concentrating a bit while writing a post? Because you didn't ask a single question (despite numerous question marks) and made yourself look quite retarded.
never mind, forget I asked anything.
Why do you even expect that here is one single book that will explain everything about very general topic?
We should allow the complete freedom of speech.
I don't believe in free speech, never have, I only believe in the right to speak the truth and I very much think people should be held accountable for what they say.
Just saying "free speech" is unregulated implies no regulation whatsoever. And the problem is if a discount nazi says things that are border-line racist how are we to approach this? By allowing free speech for those who would take it away from us are we not being idiots? The definition and borders of free speech require a general set of guidelines, but should be interpreted differently on an individual basis.
Checking amazons facebook page I have noticed that there are buthurt Ukrainians complaining that amazon is selling Donetsk military insignia and other related things and symbols. That's crapitalism for you, goddamn idiots.
Apparently also burhurt euro mp's have signed and send jeffo's a message complaining about 60 bazillion killed by communism. That idiotic comitee is being led by antanas guoga, one of richest people in Lithuania and one of richest mp's in eu parliament.
euronews.com
Tbh critically support,the decommodification of the hammer and sickle is desirable.
Why?
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Because it robs the symbol of any political meaning and turns it into an object of fashion.