Reminder that it's veterans day, Zig Forums...

If you're not willing to do anything it takes to avoid serving in America's death machine, you deserve everything that happens to you afterwards.

t. npc who can't comprehend that other people actually have a conscience and don't just take the path of least resistance

Muh NPC
>>>Zig Forums is that way
Big words… and that's all your smug shit-posting is.

1) you assume every soldier is wholly conscious of the imperialist aspect and is 'woke'
2) You assume that everyone is just going to do that. Sorry but with that logic, every current proletarian in the world deserves to die because they aren't causing revolution… Something that ignores the fact that people aren't looking to die, and the idea of being a martyr is not for everyone, that is what makes a martyr special.
Take therapy and learn what compassion is you apathetic, ignorant fuck.

You sound like typical Rad-libs. Fuck off.

Cowardly people generally don't sign up for military service to begin with.

Ironic coming from the person who shows zero sympathy for people who are also victims of the war, soldiers or not.

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Epic

They didn’t sign up in WW1, they were drafted.

There’s a difference between acknowledging that soldiers from imperialist countries are themselves victims of imperialism and liberal shoot and cry bullshit. The latter is doesn’t have any actual critique of the war itself, whereas the former recognizes that a prole who gets drafted and sent o Vietnam to kill others or be killed themselves is a cog in the capitalist war machine that chews up human lives and spits out profits. It’s not as if they are receiving any benefit to their position, or that they even have much of a choice in the matter. Sure you could dodge the draft or go to jail, but that assumes a certain level of political education and awareness that most proles just don’t have. Imo sitting on your high horse and judging these guys instead of seeing them as victims is some serious ivory tower bullshit.

because Trench warfare is EXACTLY the same as Genocide, yeah.

Fucking ignoramus: un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.html

And all the more reason not to be so fucking happy to jump on their case about facing the firing squad. To do such as thing is brave, but foolhardy in terms of sense. You're pointlessly getting killed and achieving nothing. And if soldiers do it en masse that won't stop more soldiers from replacing them and just means that you die. THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of soldiers were executed for refusing to fight, and that achieved nothing.

To clarify I am not attacking you, just adding more. Your post makes it perfectly clear that you are no fool.

I was talking about Vietnam you numbnuts, but even in WW1 the Turkish soldiers if they had balls would've refused to slaughter the Armenians

This thread is about WW1. I mentioned Vietnam because they're the vets who are still alive.
It had nothing to do with balls.
1) "to kill others or be killed themselves is a cog in the capitalist war machine that chews up human lives and spits out profits. It’s not as if they are receiving any benefit to their position, or that they even have much of a choice in the matter. Sure you could dodge the draft or go to jail, but that assumes a certain level of political education and awareness that most proles just don’t have"
2) The Turks have always hated Armenians and considered them the Jews of their country. They didn't see them as human and thus killed them.
3) The Armenian Genocide is a genocide, not a war. There is a difference between fighting on the front and actively rounding up civvies and mass-killing them for no real reason.

PS

The war occured for economic, anti-communist, and imperialistic reasons. I don't "hate" the people, mostly young people, who got caught up in the propaganda or were forced to fight in Vietnam, just like I don't "hate" the individual Germans who were caught up in propaganda or were forced to fight in WW2 (Order of the day No.55 makes good points on this). I'm also, and this is important, not going to object to the Vietnamese killing those soldiers in the defense of their country and the revolution, just as I don't object to the USSR doing the same in the defense of theirs. Is it unfortunate that a population was tricked and/or forced into fighting a pointless imperialist war? Yes, and I don't think anyone would disagree its useless waste of people who could have been put to more constructive work. But I make sure that I don't take my understanding of this to the point where I'm defending the actions taken or those war crimes willingly committed. Admittedly some of the Veterans of the Vietnam war went on to protest the US's involvment in Indochina and call for it's immidiate withdrawal from it like the VVAW. Also admittedly, many Veterans doubled down and defended it. I don't hate those people, they are very much a product of their conditioning, but I am also completely and, if necessary, violently opposed to them. There are "good" liberals, there are "good" soldiers, you could even say there are "good" cops. But ideologically I'm opposed to all these people, and if the time comes and they oppose the revolution or engage in actions which are directly in conflict with a communist movement or in support with a force which is against such a movement, they may very well have to be permenantly removed.

That's outright false, Armenians were considered to be the loyal minority prior to the 1890s.

I don’t think anybody is suggesting that perpetrators of crimes in these kinds of wars ought to be excused or whitewashed. More that they should be recognized as victims at least to some degree, and that those who change their views and come to oppose imperialism should be embraced.

Nigga I AM Armenian, I know the history pretty damn well, Armenians were treated in the Ottoman Empire similarly to Jews in Europe. And the result was that; similar to Jews in Europe, Armenians would become Jewelers, Bankers, Doctors etc. and this brought prosperity to some, eliciting the same "le clever Jew" meme except with Armenians.

That was literally my default. The reason I didn't mention it was because my point was about Part 1. There is a human element, and prescribing the crimes of a few, to the whole, is wrong. Yet this thread is made to outright scorn people who were little more than pawns.
Don't give us the "morality is a spook" bullshit because Empathy and ethics are not spooks.

You know why you are liberals? Because you Sneer at the suffering of one group of people and shield yourself with the claim of having a moral highground. You mock and jeer these people yet provide no solutions, just bravado filled phrases that are meaningless and easier said than done. You people are the worst cancer.

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That said I agree with the rest of your post.

I agree with this and it's very much in-line with Lenin

Define "human element". Do you mean fault or something else?
Agreed, but more that such a thing would be irrational.
Should have probably been worded to talk about how Veterans Day is used as pro-status quo indoctrination, but yeah this was a pretty low-effort complain thread of which we have several already.
I'm not using Stirner here. I'm using the Marxist and Marxist-Leninist view on morality and moralisms. I base my views and decisions on revolution, socialism, and anti-imperialism on historical necessity, nothing more. Anything else just muddies the water.

Also, if you're Armenian would it have killed you to answer some of the questions about how politics in Armenia work in the thread about it? Kind of interested still.

avoiding the draft meant you were giving the U.S. military one less soldier to fight their wars, and weren't going overseas to kill people. i have more respect for draft dodgers than i do cuckolds who just go "oh well better go do what uncle sam says and kill some people"
not to mention that most veterans are assholes who still think they did nothing wrong and that they SERVED MUH COUNTRY AND FOUGHT GOMMUNISM
also anchoring this thread because it's shit

I did provide a solution you fucking brainlet. It's called desertion.

Also lol @ implying that desertion is liberalism. If anything, it's liberalism to do as you're told and to follow orders and be a good little soldier. Kys liberal.

DAILY REMINDER THAT THE RUSSIAN SOLDIERS LITERALLY SHOT THEIR COMMANDING OFFICERS SINCE THEY WERE SICK OF WAR EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE """""THREATENED WITH DEATH IF THEY DIDN'T PARTICIPATE IN WW1""""".

Y'all cowards advocating for "bleep bloop just follow orders" need to die.

Ah yes, because America in 1917 is total comparable to Russia in 1917, not a false equivalency at all. It’s not as if one country was a literal failed state experiencing mass political upheaval and collapse while the other, you know, wasn’t.

Your solution implies a certain level of political consciousness that the vast majority of proles don’t have through no fault of their own. The average worker who doesn’t even possess class consciousness isn’t going to risk taking a bullet to combat imperialism, a concept they likely don’t fully understand. Sitting here and going on about how they “should have done x” is bourgeois moralizing completely removed from the actual experience and realities of proletarian soldiers.

Not to be that guy, but that point kind of derails the comment you made before about "conscience" and "path of least resistance" because soldiers only began doing that as the war prolonged in length and the conditions changed for the worse. Going through the commander at that point was the path of least resistance, their "conscience" only changed when their material conditions changed.

...

Theres no need to be upset

The russians were hardcore

I don't think criticized opposing service, he just said
which is true, you're moralizing the situation and ignoring the conditions. Your average workers was in fact fed propaganda and restricted from information regarding the reasons for the war.
No one did this. At the very worst they're stating that they are blindsighted victims of circumstance and societal conditioning. I'm certainly not calling for "sucking imperialist dick" when saying such here , in fact I'm calling for strict historical necessity and realizing the necessary cost that comes with it.

Yes everything what that user did, you didnt like is what bourge liberals do.

The true heros were the vietcong defending their home from amerifats.

Well fuck, literally everyone is a product of their material conditions. Fascists are blindsighted victims of circumstance and societal conditioning as much as soldiers. Hell, the bourgeoisie themselves are merely products of their environment! That doesn't fucking excuse them from being put up against the wall.

That's literally what I said.

Just stop being so butthurt

I'm… not? I've mostly just been stating my view on moralisms or correcting things.

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Soldiers are workers and officers are bourgeois that directly own labor instead of capital. Remember the Kronstadt and plan the murder of a military officer today

But seriously unlike cops, who enforce the system of capitalism directly, soldiers are laborers that perform a (brutal, and almost totally unnecessary) labor for the liberal state. This means that soldiers are working class, generally, and like the working class, have varying levels of class and revolutionary consciousness. At least soldiers have the benefit of being able to say 'well, its a war on terror' when they kill disadvantaged third worlders. Cops at home have no excuses for blowing away teenagers or all the completely insane shit they've done over the years, like torture people at a black site (Chicago PD), murder people at complete random in an attempt to scare out at-large criminals (LA PD), or my personal favorite, threaten an illegal immigrant with deportation if they won't let them rape their daughter (ICE)

Yes but that doesn't makie them heroes, with that mentality everyone who hasn't been in the US military is a hero even if they aren't. Draft Dodgers were just looking to hide their own skin and had no higher motive usually. No-one said that these vets were heroes, but they also weren't fully responsible for the war.
Keep sitting on your high-horse, lib.
I know plenty of vets personally, I doubt you do.
Yes, which is called a lack of class consciousness due to the constant brainwashing of American Society. I can assure you most draft dodgers thought the same thing, they just cared more for their own skin than for the communists. That's sort of why Western leftists are antisoviet shills.
Finally.

I keep out of that shit because Armenian politics today are a jumbled fucking mess, that is unintelligible to me

What I mean is that at some level we can sympathize and empathize with what they went through. We may not ideologically agree, but they are human like you and I and going through that meat-grinder is beyond what any average person deserves. They may not be our allies, but we can respect them as human beings; flawed and scared and fighting to survive in a war they got thrown into.
I'd say illogical, rationality is a social spook
Ah alright then, It's just that I keep seeing people through around the world Maral-fag and moralism so much it's retarded.

this is akin to "the workers just need to be innovative and start their own businesses"

I’m not American, and I never said that people shouldn’t oppose service. I applaud people who dodged he draft or went to prison instead of go to war, I think they’re paragons of courage and excellent role models. However I also don’t condone the demonization of ordinary proles who complied with conscription or even volunteered, since most people are indoctrinated by bourg ideology and through no fault of their own lack the political knowledge to oppose these kinds of wars. Ultimately these people are victims, they’re regular proles who are brainwashed and fed to the meat grinder of capital. Instead of attacking and alienating them we should be sympathetic to them and try to recruit them.

Except the bourg have economic interests rooted in capitalism. American proles don’t have any interests that are supported by dying for porky.

Underrated. This is a good perspective and one that I think Leftists should adopt if not for moral stance then for pragmatic purposes.

modern leftism everyone