Are you against subcultures?

Lul'd. Someone should do a gnome.

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…which is actually why I kind of support these type of events. Of course it's commodified trash sometimes, but these things are like what Marx called opium for the people. Is an escape from alienating class society as your social background does not matter. You can be a garbage man and bang your head with a business owner, but then you leave and the guy suddenly has different interests than you and becomes your class enemy. At these type of events we can all be friends for a while.

Good post

I am against commercialised subcultures which de-facto becomes being against nearly all of them.

That said, there is a novelty to this because I prefer overtly commercial subcultures to "independent" ones, that it is to say that a musical subculture, even one based around buying a commercial product from a producer, is much preferable to a "horizontal" subculture like the furry fandom where the producers and the consumers have a closer direct social relationship rather than a clear hierarchy. Such open social relations inevitably lead to the commodification of these relations to a greater degree, and from there are much more disturbing than simple identity-management.

I just think they're natural. Subcultures is how a society that is pluralistic and diverse structures and segments itself to make cohesion easier. People have different values, preferences and lifestyles, and having to meet one by one to find out which side of the fence they're in would be painful, so we adopt a series of signs and symbols to make identification easier. It's a simple way of finding out where you belong.

From the few german i know
The fuck is with punks,emos,goths and church groups
Is Stasi politics or the churche became a harbour for anti-gov people

Subcultures were basically always a thing. Each religion had it's own culture even when residing under the same nation. Also each class has always had cultural differences as well.

You're looking at it the wrong way. It adds more variety to the bigger picture because people for whatever reason naturally try fit in with groups. What is more uniform one big group of all society or a larger group and multiple smaller ones? This should be obvious. Ideally to me I would rather people just stick to what they like but most aren't creative enough to make something new.

lmao that pic is killing me. i'm too lazy to translate it all, but it's basically boomers trying to understand youth culture.
some personal faves

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10/10

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I don't really disagree with you but getting into a goth club is literally the easiest shit ever, I have tons of friends in these "alternative" subcultures despite never appropriating the aesthetic and I always got in fine wearing some black; in fact my dress would be more uniform than most other people there. You're probably also not involved enough in these cultures to recognize the difference between the kinds of people that go to these places, hence why they all seem the same to you. Tbh I personally think the dress code is bullshit but I can understand where it comes from because you actually can't get into contemporary clubs wearing the getup that a lot of goths would, so it's not actually like it's any different from mainstream culture, and having seen it first hand, the people wearing normal clothes to get into goth clubs are 99% of the time there to be cunts after their regular clubs closed (doesn't hurt that we have the best drugs either lmao). Idk where you live but I gotta say, Metal Festivals in the UK aren't like that either as well, people generally wear whatever they want even if black shirts are overrepresented.

That's not the same thing as modern subcultures. That refers to real differences within the structure of a society. Modern subcultures are not typically based on class or worldview, but fucking consumption choices.

Grufties, the German word for goths, sounds cute. Like how Kazim Akboga pronounced it here: youtu.be/YEYim54pJ00?t=44

I will give it to the Stasi for correctly identifying the skinheads as fash. Yeah, some mention the SHARPs and what-not but they were a minority of the skinheads which was heavy into nationalism. Not necessarily Nazism of course but general "muh country" spookery

Also I think Poppers is like New Wave gays

It says "only in part neofascist tendencies", which is accurate. Skins are mostly just punks i.e. apolitical or leftist. It's a tiny bunch of boneheads that are giving the whole subculture a bad rep.

It seems like more of a precursor to hip-hop culture to me.

Subcultures are inevitable, especially under alienating, authoritarian systems, where people seek out identity, and are often judged and excluded for their identities.

However, it's worth considering that part of adolescence is literally "trying on" different identities. That's why teenagers change their fashion so frequently, and why these subcultures and countercultures are so closely tied to youth movements.

The real issue with subcultures is that they push people to falsely/artificially emphasize some parts of their identity over others. Also, because part of subculture is appearance, there's a heavily consumerist aspect.

This will make me look a bit foolish, but going through my own phases, as a tween I dressed in pop punk fashion, with spiked hair. In high school I dressed like a retro garage rocker, with layered hair, a leather jacket, piercings, all that. In college I dressed like a dorky college kid with button ups, but there was a slight post-punk/goth slant, with the piercings, and dyed white hair briefly. All of these emphasized a certain genuine interest, but the issue was they were pushing a consumerist way of presenting those interests.

After all that, I lost the desire to dress in a style, and I just looked lame. This was as bad as anything, because there was no identity in the presentation. Then I jumped the other direction and had a brief "GQ" phase, which needless to say was just as toxic.

The key is really to avoid "buying into" subcultures, and authentically express yourself. You don't have to do this through clothes, but you can. I recommend just dressing practically and presentably.

I'm still into punk (especially crust), but I'm also really into bebop jazz. Politically I'm basically a social anarchist, though I do lightly support some progressive and green measures. I do like dressing decently, but I hate suits. It would be foolish of me to buy into a visual expression of any one of these things, so, to use a painful cliche, just be you.

Subcultures are inevitable, especially under alienating, authoritarian systems, where people seek out identity, and are often judged and excluded for their identities.
However, it's worth considering that part of adolescence is literally "trying on" different identities. That's why teenagers change their fashion so frequently, and why these subcultures and countercultures are so closely tied to youth movements.
The real issue with subcultures is that they push people to falsely/artificially emphasize some parts of their identity over others. Also, because part of subculture is appearance, there's a heavily consumerist aspect.
This will make me look a bit foolish, but going through my own phases, as a tween I dressed in pop punk fashion, with spiked hair. In high school I dressed like a retro garage rocker, with layered hair, a leather jacket, piercings, all that. In college I dressed like a dorky college kid with button ups, but there was a slight post-punk/goth slant, with the piercings, and dyed white hair briefly. All of these emphasized a certain genuine interest, but the issue was they were pushing a consumerist way of presenting those interests.
After all that, I lost the desire to dress in a style, and I just looked lame. This was as bad as anything, because there was no identity in the presentation. Then I jumped the other direction and had a brief "GQ" phase, which needless to say was just as toxic.
The key is really to avoid "buying into" subcultures, and authentically express yourself. You don't have to do this through clothes, but you can. I recommend just dressing practically and presentably.
I'm still into punk (especially crust), but I'm also really into bebop jazz. Politically I'm basically a social anarchist, though I do lightly support some progressive and green measures. I'm going through a bit of a zen phase. I do like dressing decently, but I hate suits. It would be foolish of me to buy into a visual expression of any one of these things, so, to use a painful cliche, just be you.

ROFL where did you find that? It correctly identifies Heavy Metal listeners as the least dumb, so kudos for that.

how the fuck were you able to see that?

Of these I like punk music the most, but in 80s Germany I probably would've been a goth. Seems healthier.

fill bucket

There's nothing wrong with liking something and meeting others who also do so. Just do it because you like it, remember all groups are made of individuals, so don't feel like you're buying into some sort of capitalist plot unless it's controlling your actions and thoughts. And don't let the die-hard marxies get you down if they honestly think that when we have communism people will stop liking certain styles or enjoying certain things, and that when we get to communism suddenly all subjective interest in things like those disappear; these people are the epitome "you will be assimilated" borg communism strawman that modern day conservatives parrot.

If you want genuine culture, make it yourself. I like the furry & the punk aesthetic, but I don't like it because it's being pushed onto me by capitalists and their profit motive, but because I actually like it. Just because it may seem to hold similarities in aesthetic is nothing more than coincidence. btw google nominalism.

Furthermore, modern culture is just mostly conformity, so again, if you want genuine culture, you have to make it yourself. Culture didn't suddenly stop existing when capitalism developed, and it won't go away when communism comes (IF it comes at all.) People complaining about capitalism overriding genuine culture, while they do have a point, need to get the fuck over themselves. If I paint a picture because I actually like something the painting is to represent, and I enjoy painting, why is it not to be considered REAL culture just because it happens to exist at a time where workers don't have worldwide control of the MoP? Such sentiment often inspires people to go into the opposite direction and then we have post-modern shit that looks ugly af on purpose for the express intent to be opposite to the cultural norm, these 'artists' not realizing that their shitty painting of scribbles and everything was only created to spite normalfags and they didn't paint it because they actually like it, I would even go so far as to say these people don't actually enjoy artistry at all.

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you don't really adequately distinguish between cultures and aesthetics. simply being a fan of something doesn't bring you into that cultural fold, for that you have to interact with a community, and it's communities that capitalism poisons more than cultural objects themselves. a film made under capitalism is still a film, but a community of film fans is inherently going to suffer to a greater or lesser degree based on the for-profit nature of commodity production. poor people can pirate, sure, but they're going to get a lesser experience.
this reaches a new apex in furry where you get the intersection of commodity production and free-form identity generation. if you're browsing porn and that's it, you'll get the normal experience, but if you actually want to interact beyond that, you get to experience walking through the swamp in sandles.

partial translation (not by me)

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...

haha

Oh, German boomers

Also, the thing about punks in church youth groups makes no sense

The DDR was atheist, going to church was a rebellion in the East. Same deal in Poland.

Can we make ddr boomer a meme plz

I’m in favor of “self determination” of furries.
By “self-determination” I mean isolating them from society and shipping them all of to Siberia.

It makes sense considering the GDR was atheist.

Subcultures are just collectivised hobbies with group norms. Within a capitalist society these group norms adhere to the market. Whereby everything and everyone is a commodity.

To be accepted into a group you must; purchase the groups uniform, pay for and attend the group events, and share a loose ideological position with a portion of a group by adhering to the commodities that act as group norm identifiers.

Think of a radlib beardy hipsters as an example. You must buy certain clothes, brands and accessories that are environmentally sustainable (the 'consume = sustainability' oxymoron) , you must go for coffee at certain cafes and drink fair trade coffee (the 'fair trade=no exploitation oxymoron), you must listen to indie musician (more group norm policies regarding what commodities to consume). you must support the inclusion of intersectionality amongst corporations controlling body (I don't think I have to explain this).

I can't think of any major subcultures that subvert these consumerist group norms other than bin diving, squatting, freegans. But they are probably more of a by product of consumerism and global capitalism.

tbh we should all be like eastern bloc boomers

Jokes on you, their fursuits will protect them from the harsh Siberian winter.

Depends. Some are susceptible to cultism. If they are reactionary in any way, they may have to be monitored.

Send them to West Sahara then.

tfw no antifa furry goth bf

Did Erich Honecker commission that chart to try to convince those darn kids to turn that music down or some shit LMAO?

No reason whatsoever to oppose them, quite the contrary, dogmatic stuff like that "guide" from the DDR is probably partly responsible for the image most people have of communism (repressive, uniformist, no fun allowed etc.) This is definitely to be avoided in the future, subculture should be allowed to flourish without the slightest limitations.

Wtf i hate the GDR now

Except Hoxha literally did ban jeans, beards and "screaming jungle music" because he found them degenerate

tfw when no DDR goth gf

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Had more to do with Islam tbh

This.

Why would you want your country's culture to be gangsterfied? Hoxha did the right thing.

You could combine both: youtube.com/watch?v=ULeXAc_L3qQ

Subcultures are gay af. Losers who treat socialism like a subculture are ruining the left

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The bigger the commodification the more epic the collectivization.
I feel the exact opposite of you though, I rather have a sub sub culture where they reject the Commodification of the Culture and reject anyone who trys to commodify it within the sub culture and I'm also not a macfag

It should be noted that the SED itself had a weird relationship with the church and tried to build ties with different Protestant ones, especially Lutheran
Article from 1984:
nytimes.com/1984/10/09/world/east-german-clerics-defenders-of-marxist-faith.html

Do subcultures even exist anymore? Feels like everything has been homogenized these days. Closest thing to subcultures we have now is "pick your pronoun and mental disorder" tumblr kinds and their counterparts from Zig Forums and trad cat twitter. Well there is also bottom of the barrel lumpen shit like juggalos and gangs I suppose, but they're not mainstream. And I'm talking from a country that is a solid 15 years behind modern trends and still has hipsters, or even punks and emos if you move a few hundred kilometers away from the capital.

Mohawks are actually colloquially called "iroquois" in some languages. Russian too. Also Mohawks were a part of the Iroquois Confederation, it is not clear what exact tribe the haircut came from.

Subcultures always exist where freedom exists.

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underrated post

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I don't really care unless they start to do demonstrations/protests

Iran has it right in banning that shit. if the state gives all to workers, no need for it.

tho slutwalks are a joke. you > kitchen.

I'm not sure what you mean by sub sub culture, but assuming I understand i understand you correctly on the rejection of commodification, I probably agree.
My ideal is a culture where people make their own shit and share it, and everyone who tries to monetize their work or buy things is shunned and expelled, leaving a culture of creative financial equals committed to pure enjoyment of the subculture. It's only when that fails that I consider the next best thing is to have corporate culture over 'artisan' culture, because the former makes it easier to ensure that same level of equality (because everyone can pirate centralised commodities like movies and games), while the latter creates barriers to participation and social norms that encourage fiscal-inequality. (i.e. money flows to creators and people who can't provide money are in a weaker position. in the event you steal product, you'll be shunned.)

Pretty cool

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the church was really a beacon ob subversive politics and most of the anti-GDR-demonstrations in 1989/90 were coordinated by it. Punks on the other hand …

Now they look like some cool kids.