What's your opinion on the link between Christianity and fascism?
I've been exploring religion and spirituality a lot, and recently I've turned my attention to Christianity. Specifically Quakerism. I think Quaker views of society and morality are beautiful and useful.
However, I have found Christianity's approach to evil very troubling. The approach, especially in Catholicism, is that all evil comes from the devil, and as a Christian, you have to fight the devil, and evil by extension.
The problem with this is that it externalizes evil and badness, instead of taking responsibility for it. Instead of taking responsibility for their own actions, they scapegoat the devil.
Since the devil is fictional, this isn't normally a problem. However, it's very easy to associate any out-group with the devil, and with evil. Doing so dehumanizes them. That outgroup can be anyone from immigrants, to Muslims, to Jews, to blacks.
The Christian approach to evil is basically the exact opposite of the Buddhist approach, in which you take responsibility for your own destructive impulses and learn to ignore them in favor of constructive ones. I think this is a much healthier approach, especially the Zen version. Obviously Buddhism has its own disturbing flirtations with fascism, historically in imperial Japan, and now in countries like Myanmar and Sri Lanka. But I'd say they're doing it wrong.
Given Christianity's impulse to blame evil on outside sources, its historical connection to fascism, and the current Christian nationalist movement within the "alt right" make a lot of sense.
religion is for brainlets anyway. if you need principles in order to function, learn consequentialism and dialectics. if you need god, then I feel sorry for you.
While I agree on an individual level, and my interest in spirituality is more anthropological than anything, I think this is an important issue on a societal level.
It never hit me how prone to fascism Christian thinking is, until I started reading up on their views of the devil in specific.
Isaiah Gutierrez
religion is the result of institutionalized theology in schools and families. it's much easier than you think to eliminate religion in humans, the problem is that we have generations getting taught it and re-teaching it. or, at least, it's much easier than trying to replace it with another one.
Zachary Roberts
I unironically think the decline of Christianity is part of the reason for the rise of fascism in the West. Christianity keeps the reactionary rightwing from fully embracing fascism because Christian moralism holds them in check and because it keeps them passive while they wait for god to smite their enemies. Without that moralism and without that passivity the mask comes off and they fully embrace their reprobate sociopathic tendencies.
This does not sound like an accurate take on any dogmatically orthodox christianity to me. The devil/devils are testers, they try to tempt and bring out peoples desires. They dont cause them in the sense of being the originators or source of them, that sounds like things i heard protestants saying. All humans are sinners, pointing at someone and calling them such is not an accusation so much as a reminder.
Guilt is fundamental to christianity. Sin causes guilt in the sinner (whether they know it or not, if the person is so corrupt they feel no guilt themselves, it is still loading up on their soul, which will feel it in the after life). Christianity is about escaping guilt to keep it from harming you, and you do this through confession, which acknowledges your sins and agrees they are terrible things. This frees the soul from the guilt. In a sense it is the same thing then, trying to cultivate inner peace and acknowledging that punishment for wrong is ultimately self inflicted on you by your own guilt.
Luke Wood
America was always Fascist. what's rising is the popularity of White Nationalism, which Fascism exists independently of.
Logan Perry
This is a good point. I am American, and I think that important distinction on temptation is lost on a lot of people here, which is what I think can make the religion dangerous.
Cameron Mitchell
Well the reactionary of christianity to fascism was often one of humanist church values vs doctrinalism. You see doctrinalism justifies moving against all those that opposed the church (Read Leninists) and all those that support the Church (see most fascist movements). It's why, for example, the catholic church supported the Utashe but the orthodox church even lent help to Tito's Partizani (although naturally favoured the cheniki). Yous ee religious institutions helping with various resistance movements (like in France) in the name of humanism. It's why after the war a lot of the churches moved towards humanism in the west (with notable exceptions like the whole of Ireland).
Carter Bell
You should probably look up what Christians really believe. Begin with the concept of sin
Levi Ward
If Christianity's decline means fascism, long live fascism.
Carter Lewis
The devil is the source of all evil. However the devil's only power is the lie. Thus all untruth is of the devil and evil. Since fascism is untruth it is of the devil and must be eradicated.
That's not Catholicism works at all. In fact, Catholicisms belief in original sin, its focus on deeds, and complete rejection of Sola Fide means that one cannot be obtain salvation or exist in a state of grace without BOTH repenting ones sins AND performing "Good Works". There's a reason guilt is viewed as a sterotypically Catholic trait and why Flagellants were even a thing until they were banned. Hell, there are still places where Catholics will not only whip themselves, but physically crusify themselves as a way to both professing their guilt and "experience what Jesus experienced". For Catholics the devil isn't a mystical outside force who curses you or make bad things or whatever. For Catholics, you as a person maintain within you the not only possibility of committing great sin, but actual pre-existing sin and the knowledge that you will commit further sin. And unlike Protestants, praying or having faith in God is not enough because that in no way can be shown to be genuine in the way Works can. Even early chistianity involves apostles either Martyring themselves (Peter, Paul, etc.) or in the case of Judas, just killing himself.
I don't see how the Catholic way of giving the Church your serfbux is much better.
Kevin Wilson
Except when they aren't?
Benjamin Foster
In Christianity Satan is powerful and opposes God's plan. However Satan is not all powerful or ever present. Also if I recall correctly Satan has never killed or even harmed anyone directly in the Bible without God allowing it. His greatest power is his ability to corrupt man. Satan desires to bring humans to his side and align against God and against History.
Isaac Powell
The thing about Christianity is that the devil can quite literally be anything you want. 16th century Lutherans said the Pope was the devil, Catholics said Luther was the devil. Falangists said communism was the devil, while liberation theologians said capitalism was. Christianity on its face has a lot of revolutionary concepts, and Nietzsche was right to point out that communism was on some level the secularization of Christian values. However history has shown that that matters less than how it’s message is manipulated and meaning imposed on it, which is ironically a very Nietzschean thing to say.
Jonathan Rodriguez
The serfbux came later (as in monetary funds beyond for further church expansion rather then current church maintenance), but the guilt part has always, always been there. Before pentecost literally every apostle felt they had failed Jesus, and really even after with Peter saying he didin't deserve to be crusified right-side up as Jesus was.
Liam Hernandez
sauce?
Luke Edwards
Also, Works isn't directly money to the church, it's a set of actual things to do as a way to perform both penance and charity.
Interesting stuff. I honestly don't really know anything about Orthodox Christianity, but I should probably learn a bit because I have an upcoming date with an Orthodox Ethiopian girl.
Nice rec. I like some of Truthdig's stuff, so I'll check it out!
Xavier Long
That's a good point. I guess it's that black and white thinking that makes it dangerous, because it makes it easy to vilify out-groups.
Owen Price
thats not necessary unique to Christianity however. People will find whatever justification they need to dehumanise others. Look at the Nazis and their "scientific" theories on why Jews were "sub-human."
Connor Campbell
This is true. Satan has also worked his evil into society by creating various lies and plots like racism and the CIA.
Communism is literally the logical conclusion of Christianity.
The decline of Christianity is why people are turning into psychopaths, the whole Satanic Panic was literally made by O9A Fascists to cause Christians to look like crazies and also cause Temple of Set and Church of Satan (both normie-tier) into looking bad.
Dominic Wood
So, inquisitions, stoning, crusades is considered normal behavior I guess
Parker Wood
...
Jackson Anderson
No, those people were always psychopaths. Moralism held them back, and like says, not even always. There's a reason why the average Christian believes atheism is evil - they know that they are reprobate without the fear that Jesus is watching them at all times.
Michael Thomas
The ascendancy of Christianity was in-place well before the fall of Rome…
Luis Nelson
Not before the West fell
Joshua Perry
Christianity was already established in Britain by the time the Romans left, what are you chatting?
Aaron Gutierrez
Work on your reading comprehension. I'm agreeing with you in . Christians NEED Christianity to hold them in check, because deep down they're reprobate psychopaths that will rape and kill everyone around them if given the chance. And sometimes, not even Christian moralism can hold them back, and they'll twist themselves into philosophical pretzels to find excuses to sate their lusts for murder and worse. The rise of fascism coincides with the rise of secularism as capitalism erodes religion's grip on society, because it's the only thing that holds them back.
Jason Rogers
I think reprobate psychopaths is too harsh a diagnosis. what I think is more fitting (given that religion is related to being low-IQ) is that these people have child-like sociopath minds and aren't capable of understanding the entirety of the consequences of their actions.
Nolan Gonzalez
Orthodox Christianity is what caused all the secular movements in the Arabic World.
Juan Morris
Christianity and Fascism play nice together but Christianity and N*tional Socialism do not.
Cooper Hughes
All of that shit literally doesn't matter. At all, whatsoever. Fascism happens because of material conditions, the necessity for the bourgeoisie to mobilize reactionary elements in order to squash workers' movements. Not because of feels and spooks.
Yes, you could say that Christian beliefs are what they are in order to reproduce repressive power structures, but definitely NOT the other way around. Basis > Superstructure. Do you even know where you are smh
As an aside, we don't even have a "rise of fascism" in most of the world outside of fringe internet larpers. There are no revolutionary movements to be countered with fascism. Trump, Putin and Orban are just liberals.
My opinion is that the Christian tradition is incredibly rich philosophically, and Marx & Co. missed out on taking it seriously and thus didn't progress from entry-level optimistic materialism.
IMO The coolest thing in philosophy right now is Žižek's materialist interpretation of Hegel's theology, more people should be familiar with it.
Luke Brooks
its unproven, and atheists love to sniff their own farts over this fallacy.
you say that about religion, if I brought up the concept of rape, age of consent or feminism being a spook you'll instantly become a red liberal, just watch.
Nicholas Myers
I find it funny you think spooks means anti-hedonism
Thomas Sanders
irrelevant. hedonism is legal through capitalism. even in capitalist societies, rape and lowering age of consent laws is treading on illegality.
Daniel Long
and? there's nothing wrong with saying we shouldn't expose people to certain things too excessively.
Liam Foster
neither is the opposite true either.
Logan Ramirez
capitalism thrives on promotion of hedonism, that is, unless you start to tread on societal taboos. of the given time and place, specifically. the same people that cheer on interracial porn are the same kind of people that scowl at you for promoting rape or jailbait.
Henry Davis
Martin Luther was a fascist incel that if he existed today would be a freeze peach tard sperging about being banned from twitter.
Blake Long
The rejection of the papacy and the adoption of liberal ethics was progressive at the time.
Adam Thompson
Yes, yes it is. And so is fascism.
Nolan Hall
Strawman much
Colton Kelly
There's nothing wrong with interracial relationships.
Jaxon Campbell
I admire your lack of faith
Carson Gray
Unironically both yes
Hunter Walker
What about fucking kids or engaging in rape?
Zachary Lewis
...
Jacob Walker
…no. Sure, material conditions, including a social economy, were fundamental to creating the pre-conditions for fascism. But so was scapegoating out-groups, believing in a lost past culture, and many other ideological factors, many of which are tied to ways of thinking that Christianity is associated with… even if fascists and right wing authoritarians are manipulating the religion to their own ends.
One thing that's been pointed out several times ITT, and rightfully so, is the difference between blaming the devil, and pointing out that the devil is a tempter, but that we're responsible for our own sins. This is a good point, but if you look at how the far right targets out-groups, it reflects this. They hate themselves for watching porn, then blame their porn addiction on "the Jews." They assault members of their community, then rationalize doing so because those members were black.
If you don't think the rise of right wing authoritarianism is a problem, you need to wake up. Bolsonaro, Duterte, Trump, Orban, Putin, Xi. These people are popping up everywhere. It goes way beyond some LARPing losers.
The danger is, the successful right wing authoritarians could lead to worse people. The LARPing losers could give rise to a generation that's less pathetic. What everyone is concerned about is what will happen, should those two forces ever come together.
Ryder Allen
Those things are both evil and very bad, yes, because they victimize people. To deny a distinction between those and interracial relationships is meaningless nihilism.
Easton Ramirez
Correlation is not causation, both are subjective
Jack Foster
Get rekt fgt
Xavier Lopez
You're a moron. We're not talking about "my feelings." We're talking about traumatizing and victimizing community members. If you're for either of those things, then you can't be a leftist because you're for the victimization of people.
Evan Rogers
so just for the record you're saying that adult blacks having consensual sex with adult whites equates to borderline pedophilia and rape?
Justin Hill
it's a bit more complicated then "i wasn't the one being evil, twas the devil controlling me." We humans are completely capable of evil by ourselves without the devil. I've been Rome catholic my entire life and rarely if ever is the devil used as a scapegoat for this stuff, most of us usually blame ourselves for any sins we commit, so no clue where you got that idea about us.
ah yes, the famous adolf hitler, able to be pagan, atheist, agnostic, catholic, and protestant all at the same time. The only time the catholic church has ever couched for outright fascism was with Mussolini, and that was more due to Pope Pius XI fear of communists then love of fascism.
the only right wing christains you'll find are prots and orthos hence why they should be considered heretics trying to denounce the one true church as laid out by jesus and given to Saint Paul the most left wing groups in south America today are nearly all heavily invested in the their local catholic communities. Saint Romero was the biggest critic of the us puppet government in El Salvador and regularly preached in praise of Castro and Che, till he was assassinated.
Jesus never left any instructions on how to run a government or state craft. His kingdom was in heaven. The purpose of Christianity is to overcome sin. You seem to misunderstand Christianity, it is about forgiveness. A christian does not hate but rather feels pity for a sinner who will go to hell. This leads them to behave more passive aggressively than aggressively if anything.
Noah Bailey
you didn't read shit. those that advocate for racemixing aren't always the same that advocate for pedos or rape and vice versa. that's what I'm trying to say. there's always exceptions, yes, but neither are dependent or independent of one another.
Stalin sent gays to gulags and Lenin killed prostitutes, pretty sure it didn't cross their mind about "victimization" since both were petit bourgeois decadence.
Isaiah Stewart
Homosexuality is not bourgeois, it's just a fact of nature. Just because Lenin and Stalin did something, does not mean it was the right thing to do. They aren't saints.
The first guy rephrased pretty much exactly what you said. "Race-mixing" isn't a thing, and the very concept is fascistic. You have serious mental issues.
Angel Wood
1 Peter 2:13–25
LMAO. Nietzsche was fucking right.
Chase Diaz
sure it is. its all subjective. of course they're not Saints. not by doctrinaire. it was a means to an end. why do you think protesting is illegal in Iran? because most protesting is out of special interest and not for the state as a whole, the workers.
not an argument. ever. its funny how closet liberals like yourself placate gays and minorities but then disparage those with mental issues. that's class divisionary tactics. nice try, Porky. and if race mixing isn't a thing, neither is rape or AOC. if you're a true dogmatist you must stick to your principles.
Ryder Russell
Titus 3:1
Romans 13:1-14
Andrew Campbell
this but also
— Proverbs 31:8-9
Then Jesus said to his host . . . When you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.
— Luke 14:14
Jesus was Nazbol
Isaac Brooks
Paul's ethics of submission is kinda completely different from Jesus' crazy pronouncements in the Gospels.
Joseph Murphy
seems almost like christianity is a complete fabrication
Alexander Bailey
most religious folk are very humble, not confrontational types. atheists are the ones who love to shit up every place with their flatulence. this is an example of that.
its part of the same book, otherwise it wouldn't be included. though I will admit, with some submission, that the old testament is mostly 99% crapola.
Thomas Russell
Textual criticism has more or less proven that fact. Much of the New Testament was undoubtedly forged by later authors.
So why are there 3 fucking Christianity threads on the front page?
Camden Jones
The New Testament is a collection of books, written from various perspectives. Read Mark's Gospel followed by John and tell me this even looks like describing the same person. There are also literal incompatibilities in the historical narratives.
Daniel Hughes
YOU are the porky, you want to oppress entire groups of people. This is projection - you want to divide the working class with your racism and homophobia. That's pretty transparent.
Stalin didn't persecute homosexuals as a "means to an end." He persecuted them because he failed to live up to his own ideals, which given the era he lived in was somewhat understandable. But it was a failing. It had no instrumental value.
