In terms of winning over the bulk of the population (specifically in America), what do you guys think the tack to take is? Since mass politics are crucial to the success of Marxism as an ideology, what can we do to bring ourselves into the mainstream and persuade people, en masse, to join up?
My thoughts here are admitted unrefined, but I personally think that we need to do community-level stuff in our locales, then get a few biggish victories (perhaps in the mould of AOC) to make some noise, and then start really getting power and doing stuff with it. That's obviously not an actual program, but does represent a broad trajectory. I'm really interested in what you guys have to say with regards to messaging, policies to focus on, and on-the-ground, day-to-day tactics, especially outside of electoral organizing.
The first and most serious problem to tackle is the complete illiteracy in radical left circles. Create study circles with study plans and lay down basic rules of engagement. You won't achieve jack shit without capable cadre.
To use Russia's history as parallel (and this applies pretty much for all the West): we are in 1880's territory, way before any mass communist movement could take place, while our LARPer "comrades" think that we are in 1917.
So the lesson: 1. Train cadre, slowly, steadily. Throw out the incompetents, the buffoons, the liberals, the cowardly. 2. Only when you have a more competent group can you start channeling energies into organizing proper, bringing in new comrades to the training cells. 3. Grow. 4. Connect with other similar competent groups, exchange experience. 5. Grow together, criticize each other, learn from each other's mistakes. 6. When you are embedded enough with the proletariat start organizing strikes. … Now you are somewhere around 1895, ten years before the first revolutionary attempt of 1905.
The general thrust of the population in the US is very optimal now (youth figuring out how capitalism sucks, etc.). Our biggest enemy is the reformist fakers, ultras, pseuds (trashcan, etc.). IMO in fifteen years if there are serious revolutionary radicals in the US that have the patience to resist all this Democrat Cops of America, Bernie, socdem/demsoc retarded bullshit and the workload to tackle problems in the proper order the country (which by then will be literally falling apart) could have a serious chance of a communist revolution.
Right, right. Do you think it build revolutionary potential to combine that with putting some effort towards active organizing/unionizing/direct action? Basically, simulatneously going for education and action, versus action after education. I see that increasing popular consciousness and getting lefties more practically refined at the same time. However, it could also end up detracting from the political awareness side of things and be reformist dead ends that drain more resources than they're worth.
Also, another question: would it be a worthwhile task to try and channel some of the unspecifically but explicitly anti-capitalist sentiment that seems to be building, outside of a vanguard/cadre format?
Samuel Anderson
So a revolution won’t occur untill 2060. The rate of profit will be zero before that date.
Caleb Richardson
the Russian revolution was caused by the destruction from WWI, not the rate of profit
Leo Smith
I agree with some parts but no, our biggest enemy is far from socdems/demsocs. Useless stereotypical "SJWs" are rare but they do exist, and they aren't our enemy or ally, simply useless. Bernie bros, and mainstream progressives (especially younger ones), however, are our greatest opportunity. They're being radicalized as more and more absurdities of capitalism become apparent, but they should be encouraged, not shunned.
Thomas Cox
Really? THEY are our biggest enemy? Not fascists, reactionaries, informants, undercover cops, wreckers, splitters, THE BOURGEOISIE???
Carter Flores
Our task is that of ruthless criticism, and much more against ostensible friends than against open enemies
Dylan Miller
There is a gulf of difference between criticism and declaring someone your enemy.
Enemies are meant to be destroyed.
John Cook
imagine not being able to think dialectically
Dylan Long
Imagine not being able to think materialistically.
An enemy is someone who is opposed to you in material terms. The bourgeoisie are enemies because of their relation to the MOP. Succdems aren't enemies. They're just idiots that haven't been properly educated - usually they're just young and unread. Hardly someone to be considered an ENEMY.
Austin Cox
The coming 2019/2020 economic crash will probably cause a failed, leaderless revolution like Paris in May 1968, it's the remnants from that failed attempt that will be able to do the underground organizing to topple the regime in probably a Russian Civil War style conflict.
Xavier Lewis
that's what 2008 was though
Angel Bennett
Yeah but no Bolshevik party really came after Occupy though, PSL is pretty much a joke and Democrat Cops of America are infantile
Robert Butler
I'm curious why you think 2020 will when the red scare has gotten more hardcore than ever
Liam Perry
It's not really a real red scare is it? The revolutionary right is scared of brown socialists but no one else really is, it's mostly Russophobia.
Julian Hill
the right pretty much owns the entire political sphere on YouTube and 4chan. Then you have places like Facebook and Reddit which are pretty much centrist because they're constantly being sanctioned.
Connor Diaz
Eh, Facebook always seemed more center right to me, especially with the influx of boomers as they were taught how to use it
Lucas Perez
America isn't going to have a revolution. Sorry to tell you but that's just the way it is going to be. America will probably be one of the last holdouts against global socialism and will hopefully pay dearly for it.
Liam Moore
No, revolution will be possible once America can no longer pay off its working class with superprofits generated by imperialism. Already we are seeing the decline of its so-called "middle class" and the erosion of the American hegemon. We are still years away from the point where America has revolutionary potential, but it is coming.
Jason Roberts
If socialism is to happen in the US, revolution would be the only way to do so.
I learned a lot about the federal reserve system today, and I can just say… we're beyond salvation. We are so deep in debt and corruption that no hardcore socialist has a chance of making a change democratically.
And they're winning, too. They've indoctrinated millions into believing anti-socialist propaganda and other stupid shit like "muh Venezuela!"
This place just needs to burn and take all the reactionaries down with it.
Samuel Diaz
I guess that’s just how the world works. Societies who adopt sane ideologies that aren’t self destructive — they grow and prosper, while others burn for not catching up. Just functionalism and dialectics working in action.
Julian Russell
I'm coming to think this really is the case, too. Socialism won't happen in America, and can't happen until theres a multi-polar world.
Christian Jackson
Explain socialism to them word-for-word, but call it capitalism.
These are completely different things and to each of these no universal answer can be given. Get the concrete picture, detect its concrete problems, its cracks, its possibilities, find concrete solutions, chose which battles you wage.
Communists after the 20th century tend to be rather skeptical of unions and there are plenty of good critiques out there ranging from Leninists, through leftcoms, to ancoms. Still, in principle any organ of workers' power (even if it basically the workers' reformist bargaining institution with the bourgeoisie) is better than nothing since it can potentially (the structure alone is no guarantee) foster the germ of class consciousness in an otherwise one sided collective. This is the theoretical perspective.
I see a lot these organizational questions and terms thrown around like buzzwords, indicating that there's no real experience or thought behind them. There are certain bare minimums for communists to master if they wish to confidently tackle such issues. To go out "unionizing" at the very least you must have a dedicated team of three comrades – the more comrades the less tasks each individual has to be responsible for, hence less pressure, hence better chances of developing proficiency or a more diverse set of skills. One of you at the very least must be thoroughly familiar with labor laws in your country and state, one of you at the very least must have made contact with several unionizers with prior experience in the field and dedicated time learning the ins and outs of it, one of you at the very least must be a capable (and optimally charismatic) comrade who can actually convince workers, speak their language. There's no starting any of this without prior (theoretical and practical) group cohesion, that takes years to develop. This is the perspective of every day praxis.
Finally, your group must be able to correctly identify if even beginning this task is a task worth the effort (and draining your energies) in your specific country. Does the cause gain at least as much as you put into this? Is your country/state/region/town an optimal site for such work? If so, which economic sector, specific company, etc. must we focus on first, and move onto where from there if we fail or succeed? This is overall strategic thinking.
You get my point. If you felt the need to ask this question you need to start with the fucking reading cell.
Joshua Walker
There's a long history of communists seeing the watered down fakers of Marxism a bigger threat than, say, the openly anti-egalitarian clerics, for the simple reason that while the latter is openly our foe, the former is pretending to be our ally while is eating away our core tenets, pacifying our cadre, confiscating our words from us while emptying them out from within our ranks like an infestation.
A communist reading of Jesus pertaining to this issue is possible:
This nigga gets it.
How is my explanation above not exactly that? Moreover, you accuse me of being unable to think materialistically when I'm concerned with the movement being hurt, derailed, and watered down from the inside – a 'material' decay if there ever was one – to oppose this to your socdem's inner world and his misguided but good intentions that in praxis translates to… decay.
This is by no means saying that "reformist fakers, ultras, pseuds" shouldn't be argued with trying to save them from their self-caused misery.
Okay, then let me rephrase it to your frail sensibilities: said people are a way bigger threat to our cause and actually do much more serious damage to us then the bourgeoisie and fascists who are given an undeserved breathing space by our internal frenemies.
Could you write 4 decipherable sentences that summarizes that stoner wall of text?
Alexander Watson
why do people here hate socdems/demsocs so much? not that I am one, I just wanna know where it comes from.
Wyatt Allen
I think lots of people here are frustrated with them. Most socdems at least have their heart in the right place, but still hold on to their sacred cows of private property, entrepreneurship and so on. While most of us see demsocs as either useless due to them fearing for their comfy way of life, or being all together disingenuous about socialism, not to mention ignorance of what socialism is.
US proles are, in the 21st century, 100 % lumpens and we shall not cry when they will be destroyed together with their porky masters.
Eli Cooper
porky democracy is an enemy yes, because even if you win a revolution, but then do not destroy the porky state apparatus, you get a shitshow.
Adrian Walker
the Soviet prole still had to work for a boss, but it was not a porky boss, but a boss put there by uncle stalin, he was still exploited and relatively poor; there were still state structures, leftovers from the tsarist times (slightly remodeled), that punished and dominated the proles in the same way as they were dominated before the revolution
the goal wasn't supposed to be STALINISM but STATE AND REVOLUTION
Nathan Baker
Here's a (you) now fuck off
Xavier Mitchell
That's not really got much to do with what I said though does it.
Eli Johnson
Go back educating ameritard class traitors
Brandon Bailey
American individualism's created this bullshit meme of the American Dream where anyone can find success and happiness through hard work, which is a pretty kickass ideal but also creates the implication that it is your fault if you aren't successful. That is one of the core premises of American culture and you are not breaking that as long as the United States of America as a cultural institution exists. A lot of hot takes from more ignorant people (i.e "why dont black people just stop committing crime, learn to code!, if you didn't talk about it so much it wouldn't be an issue") stem from that core principle, and breaking that "programming" requires something beyond AOC and grassroots political movements. I honestly think that we need a total breakdown of social order for that sort of thing to happen, something so traumatizing to American society that we collectively realize that the world really doesn't work like we thought it did. Until then any discussion of American politics to the left of socdems is little more than LARPing.
Andrew Peterson
So why don't they?
Nolan Martinez
because high crime rates stem from social issues that are more complicated than "just tell them 2 stop lol" Individual responsibility is a factor but there's a huge bigger picture.
Kevin Walker
What fucking social issues?
People are poor worldwide, they don't resort to crimes the way darkies do.
Andrew Phillips
Do you think that black people just inherently commit more crimes or something? You go anywhere in the world where institutions have failed and poverty is strong and you'll find high crime rates. A lot of those places will make the worst African American neighborhood in America look like a fucking joke.
Years of lead poisoning, institutionalized racial discrimination, and underfunded public institutions together will do bad things to a neighborhood. America's unfortunate history with slavery and racial segregation has lead to African Americans being one of the ethnic groups here that ended up fucked over.
Dominic Edwards
I don't believe in any inherent bullshit.
I just ask WHY they don't act like the rest of the world.
And nope, it's not just African American. It's all africans. You want worse than Detroit? You go to Somalia.
Camden Price
The funny thing is, people cry about the "totalitarian" nature of the USSR. But the USSR wont hold a fucking candle to what will be needed in a socialist America.
America will have to kill 2/3 of its population to fully suppress a counter revolution. It will ironically be the totalitarian nightmare right wingers scream about because America is so fucking backward. Like you think the great purge was bad? The gulags? Well, revolutionary America will be fucking apocalyptic. And it will be necessary, anything short will see the full restoration of not only capitalism, but the deepest, darkest fascism the world has ever seen.
Blake Green
Because a lot of those countries are failed states. If the absolute basic needs of a society like education or steady food supplies aren't met then of course you'd get a state of nature. People that are having their needs met usually don't end up forming gangs or guerrillas. I can think of a lot of things that went wrong in that part of the world that go beyond "oh…you know…black people"
You say you don't believe in any of that inherent bullshit, but what exactly are you implying?
Xavier Roberts
Discussing details like this on a public forum may not be the wisest thing to do…
we're seeing the rise of leftist youtube channels, and stuff like ContraPoints will reach the idpol idiots and possibly radicalize them
Samuel Rivera
Fuck off, it doesn't matter. All leftist groups are infiltrated anyway so you will never ever be able to discuss anything if you let fear paralyze you.
Robert Robinson
you know there are other parts of Africa that are not Somalia? parts that are safer?
Kevin Fisher
but individualism is as compatible if not more so under communism than capitalism. in fact the idea of freedom of choice as the priori premise under which individualism can flourish is the real illusion. express your individuality by buying a samsung instead of an iphone, etc. people innately recognize that this is bullshit but cannot articulate it because muh ideology. this is much easier programming to break, meanwhile we should maintain that their individualistic ideals will be much easier to realize under communism.
Jayden Reyes
Accelerationism. Only suffering can cause one to question the system they live under, realise its internal contradictions, and demand something new.
The majority of Americans, among other first worlders, live too comfortably and have too much of a cushion from modern day opiate-like commodities and rituals such affordable marijuana, easy sex (you now have a Chinese factory-made "smartphone" with an "app" called "Tinder" that provides you a massive selection of local women to pick and choose who to sleep with each night), affordable used car that can be bought from saving even with a minimum wage job, inexpensive internet that gives you all the virtual entertainment you could want, Netflix, etc. etc. At the moment, interest in socialism (which is currently confused with social democratic reforms) in the US can only reach a certain a point and then plateau because not enough Americans are suffering.
The proletarian revolution is impossible without the sympathy and support of the overwhelming majority of the working people. - Vladimir Lenin
Jacob Wood
americans ARE suffering, just not in the way third worlders are. why do you think we voted for the donald? americans are acutely attuned to their own alienation. depression and suicide rates are high, especially among middle class white males. our problem is NOT that the people aren't suffering enough, but that they do not understand their own suffering. the jordan peterson fans found someone who can contextualize it in a way they can understand and do something about their alienation. it's those people we have to reach and make them realize that these people are frauds and true liberation requires systemic change.
