Even with the whole mass appeal to minorities with Korenizatsiya and equal economic treatment, almost all minorities that the Nazis stumbled upon viewed them in the beginning as liberators.
This doesnt make sense, why would kalmyks(pic related) , Belarussians, Chechens, Tatars and Georgians have such hatred of socialism as to join volunteer divisions? They didnt suffer economically, werent russified or genocided historically and their culture was flourishing in the USSR.
Its as if Russians were the only ethnicity in the USSR to support communism, if we're to believe western claims.
Capitalists and Russophobes will tell me that they hated the USSR because it stole muh private propertees and muh freedumbz, but that implies that nonrussians inherently like capitalism more, which doesnt make sense.
Are there any sources that disprove the western claim that minorities despised the USSR and viewed the germans as liberators, because this phenomenon doesnt seem to have any objective causes.
Nice thread. See this wasn't true actually, and I have extensive proof for it. So see what you have is actually, well, its sort of a lot. Basically, um, the USSR was out there,just like, beating the fuck out of minorities for being "too individualistic" because their barcodes blended in with their skin. The Nazis, however, skipped the whole barcode thing and overall everyone thought "Fuck, thats a relief". So, basically thats why minorities hated the USSR OP, you're welcome. You post your sources and then I'll post mine. ;)
Carson Martin
WTF, I made this thread to describe how this western argument doesnt make sense, however I have no concrete proof to debunk it.
Isaiah Butler
I can kind of see that happening though. If you're a Hungarian capitalist you're likely to start demonizing the Bolsheviks after 1917.
Elijah Jenkins
Not OP, but I think he was referencing the common Western narrative that those groups he mentioned welcomed the Germans, not that he himself believes it. He wants sources of whether or not those events occurred and in what frequency. Reading comprehension user.
some of these ethnic groups were still feudalistic and superstitious. forcing collectivization is a major change to their lives. of course it's going to make some of them upset. sorry not sorry, i have no sympathy for primitives who believe feudalism, capitalism, buddhism or islam is "their way of life", stalin did nothing wrong with his supposed "social imperialism", mao who criticized stalin is a bit of a hypocrite (not that it matters) when he enacted the cultural revolution
Elijah Carter
Can you post literally any instance of this argument? You can't argue against an idea of an argument! Doing that is what allows conservatives and liberals to ebinly btfo eachother infinitely. This shit is the highest, maybe even perfect form of fallacious argumentation. You just adlib your opponents and thusly your arguments always win. I mean, if you want sources just look up something like "Do or do not people enjoy being killed by Nazis?". It's a big question, lots of very enlightened debate there. I mean, some people just really like being dead. You need to post an actual argument so a claim can be disproved instead of just created.
Okay.
Liam Baker
Don't have sources and haven't thought that deeply about it, but I'd put yourself in the shoes of a community that is dealing with a fascist invasion and occupation that also – being imperialist – is engaged in divide-and-rule tactics focused on luring minorities into acting as local agents on behalf of the occupiers and so forth. I'm just wary of arguments that suggest people are acting in a well-thought-out ideological fashion instead of trying to navigate and survive (and protect their children) from forces way beyond their control.
To make matters worse, Stalin engaged in these collective punishments schemes after the war, because in his fanatical Robespierre-like way was always trying to micromanage and defend the revolution at all costs, often with violence
Xavier Fisher
It doesnt make sense why minorities in the USSR would want to be "liberated" or independent in the first place, given their large amount of autonomy and economic opportunity as a result of soviet policies. It doesnt make sense why they would view themselves as subjects rather than members of the USSR.
Stalin didnt make any punishments of ethnicities before WW2.
Every single western historical work claims that minorities in the USSR wanted to liberate themselves from "soviet opression" and viewed the germans as liberators.
This begs the question of why or IF these ethnicities viewed the soviets as opressors.
Aiden King
OP here. This is why I made the thread
Michael Butler
we didnt hate the ussr, we thought we saw the endgame how it will all crumble one day, some of that was correct
Christopher Sullivan
Yes but I think the fact he did afterwards might have colored Western perceptions of these ethnic minorities' political "reliability," when in reality a lot of them were just trying to survive in the midst of a catastrophe
Alexander Sanchez
Literally on wikipedia and I've had similar rhetoric repeated to me in discussions on the USSR (i.e. "The USSR was so bad, the X country even welcomed the Nazis!") To quote the wiki:
Nathaniel Richardson
It's also worth noting that the Balts had been previously independent an integrated into the USSR by force only a couple years earlier.
Bentley Mitchell
That which can be asserted without evidence…
Luis Barnes
Im talking about ethnicities which were in the USSR from the start.
Dylan Martin
2+2=4 can be asserted without evidence
Brody James
Also worth noting that that any country going through sovietization is going to go through some initial upsets given that countries like Lithuania, prior to occupation, had a right-wing nationalist government and a capitalist economy. When you begin the process of removing those in the government and start the change over to a socialist economic model, you're going to have plenty of people, either it be business owners, nationalists, capitalist sympathizers, or loyalists to the previous government, who will not be happy with such changes. The soviets also had relatively very little time to stabilize things and secure the country before the Germans arrived, you can't develop socialism in a previously capitalist country in less then a year. So yes, there were most likely Balts who happened to welcome the Germans into their country, but it was not out of fascist sympathy itself (though the previous government did have them) and was more more likely due to the fact that the Soviets had relatively just arrived and many who did not wish for any sort of change believed the Germans would set things "right". We don't know how things might have developed if the Germans had not moved into the Baltics and the Soviets were given more time to stabilize things, but given the example of other SSRs, they would have most likely had the country going and the reactionary element suppressed in a few years or so.
Also, on the topic of the apparent war crimes committed in countries like Lithuania by the USSR, the source for them is extremely suspect given that its a "newly released doc" (as in, this year) from a Lithuanian "Genocide" documentation site and is allegedly written by an NKGB operative. Some of claims are farcical to say the least. kgbveikla.lt/docs/show/5916/from:1111
Asher Morales
Also, to answer your question on those volunteer divisions, they were all relatively very small. As in, as much as you would expect for divisions created out of the reactionary portion of the already small population of those groups who lived in the western part of Europe or just outside of the USSR. The Georgian Legion for example was created by combing through such emigre populations and yet still had to be bolstered by captured Georgian POWs to make a significant enough force. The actions of a few do not reflect on the whole however, and you had ethnic groups, which one making sweeping generalizations would assume would fight for the axis based on their ancestry, fight instead for the allies (Allied Germans, Japanese, etc.). To add, you had Nationalists and Soviets of every ethnicity, but usually always more soviets. Even the Chechens only had about 5,000 guerillas to begin with.
Brody Nguyen
Im not talking about volunteer divisions only, but about general anti-soviet sentiment in populations such as belarussians and tatars. Apparently Belarussians and Ukrainian civilians gifted germans salt and bread when they came.
Crimean tatars massively allied with the germans for not apparent reason.
Anyway thanks for the info.
Do you have any knowledge on how easy it was for Germans to recruit Kalmyks and Volga tatars?
Also is it true that Chechens massively deserted when in the Soviet Army?
Charles Cox
Because posting simple math problems with an easily fact checked answer is the same as posting claims like "The soviets killed 20 billion people".
Brayden Myers
Honestly I think you are better off asking this on Since Ismail is usually good at throwing a lot of sources at people
Lucas Scott
I don't really have many sources on specifics like that, I know for the Tartars it was mainly certain religious and political leaders however I have no idea about the populace. Like said, ask on >>>/Marx/ and try to see if Ismail has any good sources. It may take awhile, but he usually always responds so good luck.
Ian Edwards
How bad was Russian chauvinism in Central Asia? Didn't they ban the burqa?
Evan Jones
i'm not sure but if they did how is that a bad thing? they are a form of oppression against women.
Which is why minorities in the USSR had more members serve in the Red Army and Partisans than in the special foreign units of the German army and SS, makes perfect fucking sense.
Jason Brooks
100% based.
Austin Cruz
it's stupid because instead of muslims letting their dauhgters and wives go out without a burqa on they just keep them in the house all day so no other men can see them. for some women it basically just makes their oppression even worse than before. you can't just ban the burqa, you have to eliminate Islam itself.
Liam Richardson
Mostly propaganda. There were minorities in Nazi ranks, but most of them were either conscripted or insane.
