Has not experienced a significant economical crash since before ww2

I'm not that knowledgeable about Norway, however the fact that it is allowed to be the way you describe means it somehow benefits the imperialists.
It is in NATO, meaning it is either imperialist or a subject state to Germany and the US.

Putting aside turd worldism for a moment, the basic criticism against social democratic reformism (because that is just what Norway is a poster child of, mostly propped up by oil revenues) is this: it does not empower the workers, and thus leaves hem vulnerable when a declining rate of profit nudges the capitalists into a neoliberal reaction against the welfare state. At some point you will have a Thatcher, and all your "victories" will turn to ash in your mouth, because you never really gave people any agency in the realm of production.

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Yeah, historically this has been the case. In Greece this is exactly what happened since the crisis.

Mods please unban Norwayanon :🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧(

he has been unbanned already

Thanks.

Kvifor trur du at dei høgrevende kjem til å ta over? Er ikkje venstre- og høgresida veldig likestilte her?

As I said above just because we have oil does not mean anything. New Zealand and Denmark are just as prosperous and do not depend on one resource in particular.
Where is the declining rate of profit you are speaking of, and why would that cause the rightwing to grow?

fuck off, imperialist.

why? fuck this guy.

Does anybody actually have a book or source that tries to derive what amount of value entering the first world is from something like a developed to less developed wage differential in sourcing raw materials or other goods in those countries, as well as interest benefits on loans which end up going back to the developed countries? It seems so difficult to me, I'm not sure if it has ever been done, but I figure if you were to gesture at it and say "It is demonstrable that the minimum/average wage of the first world is predicated on this percentage of labor cost difference of getting these materials or goods from the less developed countries" that would have some value.

aren't their labor unions given a lot of sway in the workplace though?

Social Democracy is Fascism.

It doesn't necessarily, but it seems complicated. Your oil company is mostly state owned, which means to profits go back to the state to do whatever it wants. I'm not knowledgeable on this so I'm talking generally, I may get specifics of the way this works wrong. But anyways, in a Marxist or Ricardian sense, a commodity's price can be split into shares based on who gets what part of the final price. You could say 50% goes to wages, 30% goes to fixed costs, and 20% goes to profit. If you have a state owned oil company, the 20% profit is suddenly going to the state itself, which can then use that to efficiently organize mass public goods. This could be anything, and this is where I'm unsure because I don't know what Noway does with the profits from oil specifically. But it could go to building infrastructure, it could pay for hospitals, it could arrive at your house as a check, etc. So this means an amount of exploitation was actually extinguished in a very large value industry, which creates more public wealth. So if we were to give a lot of importance to oil but then also say "capitalism is working because of the social democratic state!", we'd have to acknowledge that the reason it is working here really is because we've used the state to end exploitation in a part of the economy, so really the proceeds of that owe to ending exploitation rather than capitalism as such.

But aside from that it seems hard to say that you make all of your own goods. It seems akin to me to the suggestion that most of the "value-added" is sourced in the developed world. That is true, except it side-steps the charge of imperialist exploitation by just saying most of the final cost structure of the completed product comes from the developed world. A part of that cost is first world labor, and if you suggest that the costs further down the chain are lower and a portion of their cost is labor, which is paid much lower than the first world, then it is just conceding the point that the first world's labor as a portion of the final price of the good is higher than that in the less developed countries, which is again in a Marxist sense a kind of zero sum game. This isn't to say "economics" is a zero sum game, or that production is over time. That is an easy misunderstanding at best, strawman at worst, against leftists to suggest they are talking shit. Rather, the final price of most goods is predicated on a great degree to their costs (hence we even use terms like "value-added") and their costs take up fixed ratios of the final price of a good in a cycle of production. If in that cycle, 10% goes to third world labor, 40% goes to first world labor, 30% goes to fixed costs and 20% goes to profit, then somewhere in the 70% going to first world labor and profit there is an amount taking up space that could go to third world labor. But, first and third world labor were paid in equal measure, then first world labor would see a real reduction in their wages.

So it is inarguable that some amount of exploitation occurs on a global scale, but I'm really not sure how much. To really nail that down you'd have to follow a lot of trade networks and do industry analysis on what it would cost to produce these things if the third world was paid as much as the first world, and then you'd be able to actually have an estimated number that suggests how much value has actually been appropriated to the first world. I'd imagine its in the 10s of trillions over the 21st century alone (global trade being about 20trn a year), but I really don't know how much.

I don’t think it’s the case that social democracy requires imperialism to function. It’s more that western porkies will be more likely to allow concessions for workers at home if their profits are being padded by superexploitation of the third world.

Anyway, there is a lot of written information by intelligent people that Nordic countries, including Norway are polluting, capitalist and imperialist.

So if Africa disappeared tomorrow Norway would be fine and dandy?

I agree with that, but it’s more a question of the current way of life in developed countries, as it really exists in this moment. You could have a social democracy of stale bread and mud brick huts with a ziggurat and roasted pigs for the ruling class, if the state is reappropriating some of their claims to surplus for the working class.

Sorry, meant to green text the part about social democracy not being dependent on global exploitation specifically.

So you can beat him with FACTS and REASON.

By what measure? Surely not by GDP/capita - neither nominal nor PPP. You're just regurgitating platitudes you read someplace else aren't you?

It's not that Venezuela has failed, Venezuela is trying to resist western imperialism, and Nordic countries partake in it, including selling weapons to Brazil and Colombia.

According to wiki they are similar to Sweden. Lot's of mining.

prosperous in terms of living standards

what is wrong about mining then?

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sorry meant to>>2734341
Explains why New Zealand has similar model to Norway but rather mining that oil. Having said that, under crapitalism oil drilling, mining and even agriculture is damaging in the long run.

with few exceptions those countries are either lucky or imperialist. Few like Slovenia work hard, thought.

So if every country was like Slovenia capitalism would be solved?

Maybe, but don't know if Slovenia could maintain such standard of living if every country was like Slovenia. They still depend on global trade which is fueled by resource theft and cheap labour

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Damn. I didn't know Norway made all of their own electronics and clothing or mined all of their own minerals or grew all of their own food. Or that they didn't benefit from NATO's hegemony or from foreign investment. Really impressive stuff.

telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html
This isn’t a systematic analysis but it’s still a good piece

Did Solvenia eliminate commodity production and untether itself from market imperatives? Then no.

greenleft.org.au/content/scandinavia-covert-imperialist-role

independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/why-denmark-isnt-the-utopian-fantasy-it-is-made-out-to-be-a6720701.html

I agree OP.

SOCDEM GANG UNITE

I can't tell if you idiots are being ironic or just haven't read Capital.

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I would wager that it would affect China more than it would Norway.

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aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/08/exposing-great-poverty-reductio-201481211590729809.html

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Have fun arguing against a Norwegian person with these claims and getting labelled as a conspiracy theorist. I can not say Norway is bad or we are part of a hegemony because that sounds insane to the people here.

So you are saying that Norwegians are hypocritical nationalists who deny imperialism of their country?

Yes? You can not argue with them

I imagine they also act 'holier that thou' because Norway accept refugees and migrants?

We are consistently ranked best country in the world to live in and we are the nation with the most people saying that we have the best culture in the world. In school we are taught to be critical and always question things and sometimes the media does good things like calling out the oil fund for exploiting tax havens but mostly people just think "politics are boring" and "it doesn't matter" (elections here almost do not matter at all, a study showed that economic growth since 1970 was literally identical under both the "left" and "right" governments)

I read multiple articles praising Norwegian system and claiming that Norway has highest voting turnout in the world, how true is that?

honestly things *here* are extremely good, other than the fact that we still have 8 hour work day, shitty consumer culture and widespread mental illness (iirc 1 in 5 have anxiety/depression) and out voting turnout is about 80%, which is lower than in countries where voting is required by law (australia and turkey for example) and we are taught that voting is super important and that we have a good democracy (although nothing ever changes really and in sweden where they have the same system they do not even have a government because they can't decide)

So you are saying that Norway maintains high quality of life, but are very critical of it's role in global capitalist system and that most Norwegians deny it?

Sort of, but that's not a panacea. In Germany, unions also have a lot of institutional power, get to sit on company boards and such, and in the end all they do is be the handmaiden for hyper-competitive private industries. Echoes of Zizek's idea of nominal communists being the best managers of capital in China.

It's not a secret - the stronger the welfare state the bigger the human well being. But included in these high scorers here are Japan, with its well known capitalist endued human misery, the freeters, and Germany with it's "mini-jobs". Most of the European ones pictured are in fact buoyed by seasonal/subcontracted/temp superexploited labour from Eastern Europe. So a strong national welfare state isn't the end-all be all. Also not pictured: the Southern European states paying the price for the wealth of the creditor European nations of the table.

source?
a small minority
?
what about in the soviet union era when we had no eastern europeans here? oh, we prospered.
how exactly?

And again nationalism. And people here pretend to support revolutionary defeatism?

And again nationalism. And people here pretend to support revolutionary defeatism?

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You can not say we depend on them when in fact they just help us a little amount. And they have the same rights as every other citizen in Norway, why is it unethical to help them escape poverty in Eastern Europe?

Well duh, the enormous value destruction exercise that was WWII created a lot of room to accumulate profits. Even Keynesians know this. That room is not there anymore, and the only way to keep up profits is to immiserate workers and dodge taxes.

w-what does value destruction exercise mean?

And again nationalism…

it's an exercise in the destruction of value. A lot of physical stores of value are destroyed in war: infrastructure, factories, housing. Those have to be replaced, and they are typically replaced in a capital cycle that has a higher proportion of labour to capital than there was previously (because so much capital was destroyed). During such a period you get high profit rates.

Still, western countries like slovenia and norway only have about 10% foreigners in them, which work in good conditions.

Like I said before, they still benefit from resource extraction and labor exploitation of developing nations.

that wouldn't explain Sweden

new zealand doesn't follow the nordic model
their top rate of taxes are lower than the UK while taxation at the bottom is, to my knowledge, higher. they're a country where you have to copay to see a GP and their dentistry charges make the UK's inhuman and shit dentistry system seem like the rest of the NHS.

More than 10% of New Zealanders live in Australia because wages in NZ are way lower.

Even Marx didn't finish capital.

he wrote enough to explain the Tendency of the Rate of Profit to fall

Replace oil with iron and you will get Sweden

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_in_Sweden

zerohedge.com/news/2018-09-18/norway-officials-admit-they-knew-nothing-about-libya-joined-regime-change-efforts

They based their decision on media and info from other countries. Not the same as "nothing"

...

Wow it's NOTHING

China has 99% of the world's rare earth metals but no one ever ascribes their economic boom to their stranglehold on that production

Även om "vänster"sidan ser ut att vara lika stor som högersidan så glider partierna högerut. Enda sedan soviets fall har socialdemokratin tappat sin kraft. Det finns inget hot från kommunismen längre, så sossarna glider högerut. "Socialdemokraterna" i Sverige överser privatisering av skolor, sjukhus, apotek, järnväg och allt vad de kan slå sina klor runt. Just nu pågår en enorm kampanj för att kraftigt begränsa möjligheterna att strejka, trots att vi har rekordfå strejker. Samma sak kommer att hända i Norge.

Finland, Sweden or Denmark have none and they are on the 2nd place on living standards after Norway.

Yeah time for me to leave this place and let you larp your utopian fantasies.

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Stupid comparison.Sweden has 0.01% worlds population sitting on top of 5% of iron.

Finland is pretty average. Sweden has iron, Denmark is polluting the earth with it's energy sector. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

fuck off reformist.

lol

My country was better as a Social Democracy too and had great ties to Yugoslavia which was Market Socialist aka pretty close to DemSoc
or SocDem and as we know used to be the best country in Europe with the highest living standards. Workers don't care for utopian dreams of the future, they want results. And if you can get social security and rights without getting yourself killed (which really isn't needed anymore since we don't live in the fucking 20th century anymore) of course they would gladly take it. That's why Social Democracy and Democratic Socialism are the most popular types of pro-worker political theories in all of the technologically advnaced and well developed world. They just are the right thing for the current conditions. But surely nobody likes to see this and will just say that some parties claiming to be SocDem or DemSoc today are all red liberals which really isn't true in all cases but in some. Smh. You all need to get over these delusions if you don't want to be another radically ideological bunch misdirecting violence like the Zig Forumsyps.

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you know LO betrayed the workers way back in '38 tho right with Saltsjöbaden? they sold the workers out, and ever since then, they've consistently sided with the employers, and the social democrats have shifted so far right they are not even a shadow of their former self? their history is one of compromise and class collaboration, and it has become their grave today.

ringing any bells?

On an other Note, norse population is small and homogenous.

small tribes of (state)capitalists telling about their socialist Utopia, kek

nobody in sweden for example thinks sweden is socialist, not the far-left, nor the social democrats, nor the right. not even the far-right.

to further on this, this notion that sweden is socialist is literally only a product of american political illiteracy. nowhere else in europe do people talk about sweden as socialist either. the swedish economic mode of production is objectively bourgeois.

as far as bourgeois society goes, it is far better than in the U.S., as someone who has experienced both, but we are communists, a better bourgeois society isn't what we advocate.

Excuse me?

No, but new zealand isnt rich by european standards at all. It does have pretty good farmland though.

Pic looks like a gay porn

reconsider

How's the alienation factor?

Cause if your waifu is a slut and there's still mods burn it all down anyway. Including whoever the fucking garbage heap was that banned OP when that was the first articulated argument I've seen in months

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Why must I be torn apart in this way?

how exactly does norway benefit from wasting money in afghanistan?

It's leftist board, if you want arguments why leftist is better than rightism, go here 8ch.net/leftypol/res/2300211.html

Imperialism is not military doing stuff
8ch.net/leftypol/res/2300211.html

imperialism is economic exploitation. Norway dos benefit from resources stealth and cheap labor.

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p.s. if war in Afghanistan was waste of money, crapitalist countries would not engage in it.

The person who wrote that is definition of brainlet, just as mentioned in this post

Nordic countries have profited massively from capitalist exploitation of the 3rd world.

Your succdem paradise is going to turn into a turbo fascist hellscape as soon as we hit the next global crisis, and even more so as the effects of climate change continue to fuck the 3rd world and cause more mass migrations.

the huge global recession, which has been "coming any moment now" since the beginning of time. lol

Were you in a coma in 2008 or just a retarded eurotrash with no education?

Guess what, nothing happened in sane countries like Switzerland and Norway. Just because some jew mutts calculated their imaginary numbers wrongly and fucked up the US economy once does not mean a global crisis that actually affects workers is inevitable.

Meanwhile in the rest of europe far right parties have been surging massively for the first time in decades. In many countries these far right parties have already taken control (Italy, Poland, Hungary, etc) and in others the far right is in a very good position (Spain, France, etc).

You are a true retard if you think that shit isn't going to spread to your nordic inbred paradise as the neoliberal hegemony continues to falter across the world.

What "rise"? Just because clueless teenagers act radical to be edgy (which has always been a thing) does not mean the world is collapsing.
Right-wingers have been "rising" ever since the 80s. The only reason they are so prevalent now is because of the migrant crisis caused by
1. Countries without Swiss democracy which have horrible economic conditions
2. Countries suffering wars caused by the non-Swiss democracy tyrant US

1. Read more literature
2. Stop worshiping Switzerland.

Why is every post with this flag so cringeworthy?

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imagine being this much in denial