Why can't Kim Jong Un just hire Cockshott and Cottrell instead of pulling this bullshit?:
>North Korea turns to Vietnam for economic ideas
outline.com
Allende hired Beer to design socialist cybernetics in Chile and the US was so scared they sent in the CIA to overthrow them.
Cockshott went to Vietnam last year to promote his ideas, they basically told him to sod off.
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I think you’re being too credulous, North Korea isn’t a state looking to enact an ideal or pure socialism.
Kim Jong Il would like to have a word with you.
shoo
All economic astrology has a mathematical basis. Doesn't change the fact that empirical results are always ALWAYS superior from a policy perspective
In defense of the critique, the pursuit of socialism goes beyond rhetoric. This is not aimed at DPRK, as they're definitely some form of socialist; however, lip service paid to the benefit of a system is an ideological device, not one that accurately reflects the extant conditions and relations of production in a country.
A reproduceable mathematical basis is grounds for a statement of empiricism. The delineation between policy and statescraft has no bearing here, except by convenience of development - in which case we would just call every 'socialist' effort that improves the economy an empirical site of development, at which point its best to just stop calling ourselves communists because we'd only be vying for the most convenient orientation of capitalism
Would you call what Henry Ford did hypothetical? Toyota? What about Amazon Inc?
The technical basis for a planned economy is already there. The empirical results are in: it's possible, and it could work. Unfortunately the 20th century was blown wasting time on "socialist commodity production" and enterprise-level "profit motive" because socialist governments were too corrupt / stupid to make use of the technology and methods that already existed. Even Che Guevara realized that the Soviet thinking about planned economics was basically a clusterfuck that would lead back to capitalism. But since the U.S. blockaded Cuba, they had to rely on the USSR as a trading partner which meant subordinating themselves to the Soviets.
Even in Marx's day he could see how the factory itself provided a working model for a planned economy at the national level, even if his vision was probably ahead of the actual level of development that would be required.
From what I've seen of Cockshott, though, he doesn't think the USSR had the computing power to do it. It would today, though!
Can someone email him and have him start a leftypol Q&A?
The difference between mathematical models and real-world results is that you can't fully model the real world. Models merely give us a framework to perform real-world testing - testing that has not happened. The DPRK doesn't need to become an economics laboratory for an untested economic theory. If it doesn't work, if something was missed in the models, people die.
The work done in the developments for computational economics mirrors the optimization work done by Kantorovich and the computational framework of Glushkov, the former was tested in the Soviet Union and the latter became the basis for a system that was remarkably similar to 'the internet of things' in the 60's and 70's. You can even bring up Project CyberSyn in Chile, which already functioned and provided, even under a crisis situation. The stakes of what you're asking is that the development of socialist economy is better off compromising itself by rendering it wholly subordinated to the trade terms and factors of the exchange and reproduction (which would make it not a socialist system) than to pursue sustainable and optimized economic planning, on the virtue of your fear of the accuracy of computerized models. I'd fear the error and human variable of the market far more, if I was you.
wasn't he on one of the discords?
Because North Korea is state capitalism, the juche nomenklatura ruling class have no interest in socialism, how naive are you?
If the dictatorial monarchy of worst korea had some sense they would already have adopted Swiss democracy, the most successful system in all of history.
dead meme tbh
Soon I will be afraid of these posts more than baboon.
Attracting foreign investment is a good thing that will only improve the situation in the DPRK. Especially in regards to soft skills. What they need to do is to restrict it to joint ventures and SEZs, and don't liberalise the economy. I think it is totally possible to attract growth while leaving the MoP in the hand of the state.
Think about Juche what you will, but they won't give up their idea of socialism. They constantly brag about having no advertisments in the streets, their worker co-ops, free housing, no taxes etc. - it's the legitimacy of the WPK. Even if they have dropped Marx nominally. Also Cockshott isn't Jesus. If his solutions were just so perfect, why has not a single socialist state tried to implement them? It's not like the DPRK is afraid of computers.
because the people running those "socialist states" usually don't want an egalitarian communist system. there were plans for cybernetics in the USSR but they got shelved due to opposition from bureaucrats.
While this is something they should consider, I'd probably imagine Cockshott would never be allowed to return to the UK ever again if he did something like this.
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That one died a long time ago
More reasons for Paul himself to apply for the job!
the socdems on this board need to go back to leftpol or chaporeddit or whereever they spawn from
if kim jong un does this he is literally retarded and north korea will be another run of the mill third world country no one cares about, plus it will reunite with the ROK and be the retarded version of current-day east germany, just even less well off.
Vietnam is the goal of every country on earth. It's EMPIRICAL
how nigga lmao
BASED KIM
Special economic zones and rigid control what goods and money flows into the planned economy.
That is just too simplifying for me to take seriously. "Muh bureaucrats" is basically the Trotskyst version of da joos.
What fucking proof do you have that the DPRK doesn't already use computers when they make their economic plans? Do you think all problems they have go away if you plug in a Dell PC in the planning committee office?
That's good point. Rather than inviting Paul Cockshott alone, they should invite more advisers from Cuba and Vietnam.
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Lot of CIA in this thread.
read this, especially the last quote.
Faced with an evaluation procedure which is above all concerned with plan fulfilment, and with uncertainty about supply and possible changes in plan, the management understandably tends to seek plans which are easy to fulfill (or avoids the risk of receiving plan orders which may prove unfulfillable) and overapplies for inputs, hoards materials and labour.
Nove, Economics of Feasible Socialism Revisited p74
One reads almost daily of some ministry or department neglecting the interests of some related or complementary activity, because it is beyond its 'departmental barrier.' There is a strong tendency to self-supply. Thus each of twenty-five ministries engaged in construction in the Pavlodar oblast seeks to set up its own quarry and building materials factory. (Pravda, 26 December 1980, to cite an example that happens to be at hand).
Nove, Economics of Feasible Socialism Revisited p68
Associated with this there was no mechanism for enterprises to go bankrupt; the enterprises were state property and the state could not go bankrupt. This led to inefficiencies in the allocation of labour between industries; enterprises and industries that were of diminishing importance to the national economy tended to hoard labour which could have been employed more effectively elsewhere.
Cockshott, Towards A New Socialism p176
Glushkov’s proposal faced opposition on two sides. Industrial managers and government bureaucrats opposed the computerization of economic planning and management because it exposed their inefficiency, reduced their power and control of information, and ultimately threatened to make them redundant.
Gerovitch, InterNyet: why the Soviet Union did not build a nationwide computer network
Glushkov's proposal was to build a cybernetic network to plan and direct the economy. It was not approved.
Fucking hell lmao tell that to the families of the Vietnamese Proletariat who have already died.
Authoritarians aren't known for seeking outside help, and even less so for accepting unsolicited help. Which also explains why Allende is the one exception. Everyone can see that virtually the entire communist bloc solemnly ignored just about the entire leftist production outside of their own borders, as well as most of the production within, and largely stuck to whatever ideas the people already in charge thought up. Another effect of the specter of Stalin.
The cybernetwork economy, not to mention the almost totality of leftist output of the previous 100 101 years, will have to wait until the second wave of worldwide revolution. Assuming there's still a world by then.
except they didn't? the USSR alone funded lots of communist movements across the world.
i think what the user was trying to say was that the USSR ignored ideas that weren't generated by their own leadership. and they also tended to promote those same ideas in movements they supported abroad, leading to other countries having the same problems that plagued the USSR.
Yeah, what said. I meant intellectual production. Owing to Stalin's legacy, the Party was seen as the sole authority on socialist theory and policy, and even after the Sino-Soviet split, both sides (and their vassals) still clinged to the same Stalinist framework. Within it, the only way to enact change was to first reach the top of the Party in order to gain legitimacy mandate of heaven lol, and then to enact it, like Krushchev, Gorbachev, Deng et al demonstrated. Now that I think about it, this "Party infallibility" on anything concerning socialism ensured that the only way to change things was through subversion, ironically. Huh. Gotta write that one down.
For a little while, during the Thaw, this dogma was softened a bit, as the higher Soviet echelons flirted with new ideas from outside the Party, including the aforementioned cybernetics. But even before Krushchev got couped, official policy was shifting back to Party primacy, and Brezhnev cemented it. Maybe if Gorbachev had managed to allow for increased civil liberties without fucking everything up completely forever so that the USSR survived, it could have been more accepting of foreign ideas. God knows the West produced vast amounts of Marxist theory, just waiting for a chance to help build socialism.
So? What's the issue?
Fpbp. Economics is too serious for memetheories.
mainstream economics is based on fallacies & unrealistic models, as Cockshott (who isn't even an economist) has shown. Other economists like Steve Keen, Michael Hudson, and people in the MMT crowd have pointed out repeatedly that mainstream economics is mostly nonsense.
North Korea is a heredity absolute monarchy for all practical purposes, featuring the deification of deceased leaders. It is also backed up by a military aristocracy.
It is socialist in name only and it should not be considered to be such by any objective measure.
They pay lip service to the ideals of socialism, but pursue an almost medieval approach to the governance of their country, keeping most of the populace in a state that is indistinguishable from serfdom for all practical purposes.
capitalist detected
He should enslave them
this is correct but because but due to the absurd lies of western imperialism about north korea a lot of leftists take the opposite stance and say the DPRK is a paradise and model workers state. because as we all know, dialectics means everything is either totally good or totally bad.
What about Cuba? Has based Phallusprojectile approached any of the authorities over there with his cybernetics?
juche and songun are pragmatic necessities, they have created a wonderful society similar to a monarchy backed up with a warrior caste, only the kings authority comes from the people instead of god or blood or something else, in this way even the lowliest peasant is the master of the realm. The difference is, though this exact setup can very easily become undermined and corrupted over night, and indeed has in many cases, it has not in DPRK because very through and ample brainwashing of the citizenry, everyone understands what makes this work is socialism, and the moment it becomes not socialist, the whole thing will fall apart. These radical measures of out of the box thing and pragmatic adaptation of exotic societal structures to defend their state are the only thing that thus far works to resist the constant assault of foreign influences trying to undermine and destroy the worlds only beacon of socialism.
I would have expected more of this board
This is your mind on American propaganda
In which the head of state is Kim Yong Nam and the head of government is Pak Pong Ju.
Unlike the rest of the world you can't join a military academy and become an officer without having been a private first.
While having planned economy, production for use, collectively allocated surplus, and workplace democracy through Taean Work System
Majority of the population live in cities, and just as they have the Taean Work System for industry, they have the Chongsan Ri method for agriculture.
Vietnam is not socialist. Kim invited socdem advisors.
Pffft, this dork doesn't even play CK2!
Then I guess Cuba from 1959 to 2018 was a monarchy with tanistry succession in which Fidel abdicated to his brother.
Also Kim Yong Nam has held his position since 1998 and he's from another Kim family.
I'd say Cuba was only a monarchy from 2008 to 2018, when Fidel's brother was in charge.
when will this meme die.
Not to be a complete "neigh-sayer", but I always found this argument flimsy. On paper the Taean work system creates a system of industrial democracy, more so the the Soviets, but we all know that in the USSR the soviets where subservient to larger planning bureaucracies. I don't see how North Korea could be much different though, just the addition of "more workplace democracy" seems a little superficial when the structuring of the economy as a whole is not far different from the USSR. We can have co-ops under capitalism, but they are still subservient to the invisible fist of the market (and the will of larger firms). I guess my one complaint here is that this "change in management style" doesn't seem to address the kernel of capitalist relations, and puts "socialism" in a rather superficial context. Also, simply quoting the nations constitution as evidence of reality on the ground is awful myopic of you.
The existence of money as a stand-in for exchange value I thought would negate this? And I don't quite see anything special about state lead development plans, India had them up until the turn of the century.
North Korea is an interesting experiment, and I by all means support them against imperialism. I just don't buy the hype that they are a worker's paradise, and most of the arguments I've come across bolstering this view seem to be slightly odious.
This is from 2017. Not sure how accurate it is.
Yet in Chapter 3 of the Enterprise Act (which concerns the management organs of enterprises), there are no references, as previously noted by the South Korean press, to the Taean Work System. Under the new system, the enterprise director occupies a position akin to a modern Chief Executive Officer; the chief engineer directs production and daily operations (essentially a Chief Operating Officer) and is supported by the deputy director.[2] The Party committee is seemingly no longer part of factory management. A search of Rodong Sinmun online for the Taean Work System indicates that it is now just a part of the historic cult of Kim Il Sung.[3] Indeed, Rodong Sinmun proclaimed in an article last year that the enterprise director is ‘master of management.’ Of course, directors must hold the ‘productive masses’ (workers) in their ‘hearts,’ but the Party secretary is no longer present and is not mentioned.
38north.org
Then the US has seen the houses of Adams, Roosevelt, and Bush rule over it.
interesting development if true
Interesting, so NK is moving further towards normalizing hierarchy in the workplace? I know there are some real Juche sympathizers here, but I think they’re really falling to wishful thinking. NK is still heavily flawed, and I think all indications are that there is a real movement inside to start emulating the greater market reforms of other East Asian communist states. Which is one reason I think the whole background radiation of DPRK fear mongering on the basis of their insanity is silly. If hostility with America and the South ended, they’d probably gradually liberalize but retain the one party state.
So if NK won't do it because the authorities are power-hungry, what about the supposedly democratic Cuba?