One of the tendencies that irritates me the most on the left is the beatification and idealization of the white working class. This is done typically by social democrats, and Bernie people in the US. Anyone who has lived amongst the dusty whites for any period of time knows that there cannot so easily be unity between them and people of colour. The precious white working class has a long history of violent reaction and fascism. One of the worst tropes about them is that they are harmless idiots, manipulated by the Republican Party who themselves don't stand to gain from being in the white caste. At best, this sort of politics is espoused by ignorant radical-liberals or social democrats who may mean well, and at worst it is heard from Asserite grifters looking for some obscene Red-Brown alliance, such as Angela Nagle. I think that at best, maybe 30% of the white working class will be aligned with the left, and the rest will move towards fascism, unless of course your definition of socialism is "free shit for whitey" in an otherwise ethno-fascist reactionary state.
What are Zig Forums's thoughts on the topic?(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
The White Working Class (tm)
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The condition of the proletariat is one of misery and ignorance. We seek to abolish all class structures, so avoiding the deification of the concept is necessary. On the otherhand, it is with extreme faggotry on your part OP to belittle and single out a portion of the class of whom you fight for. Until any group of proletarians be classified as lumpen or wholly, unredeemably reactionary should one dismiss their significance as potential allies in the class struggle.
Beautification of the working class is a negative tendency of the left in general. The white working class have done a lot of horrible things and a lot of good things, get them to do more of the latter.
If you don't align your views with the Koch brothers your a Nazi.
American social democrats have gotten the white working class on board with redistributive social programs several times in its history, along with interning Japanese people and stranding Jewish refugees at sea as they were fleeing Nazi persecution.
In my experience it's precisely the radlibs who shit their pants the moment you so much as bring up white workers. I personally use it as a lib detector when dealing with intersectionalists. If you want to see what class in and of itself means to these people you have to talk of white proles, because it's them who don't have any other liberal idpol chips.
But mainly the U.S. needs to be broken up and colonized by Asia, like China during the century of humiliation. Only after a period of such, during an atmosphere of rising nationalism, will Americans be won over to communism. That will be the sausage machine by which a future Soviet America will come into being.
Shit I should have read your whole post.
Just KYS liberal
We do not romanticize or elevate the white working class in particular but support the working class as a whole regardless of race.
Kill yourself.
The white working class isn't inherently reactionary or anythng. It's just incredibly idpozzed. Oh and it's chauvanist too but so are all people in the first world.
This. OP must be a foreigner to this board to not realize this.
I second the idea that OP should kys.
You are massively oversimplifying American political history to the point of strongly insinuating, intentionally or not, that whites are inherently more reactionary than other races. European style fascism never really took off in the US, even if it was sympathetic of Nazi Germany before WWII (and after that, it became common knowledge that fascism was suicidal for white society). Far right American politics were always much more about religion, especially Western Islam Protestantism and the influence of literal anti-intellectual groups like the John Birch Society.
Americans are very ignorant, but for many of them, this ignorance is not willful. Undemocratic social control by the government was considered a genuine moral imperative by people who were openly disgusted by the US's cultural values of civil liberty.
Besides, the problem the left has with its attitude toward the white proletariat is the exact opposite of what you described. Some misguided leftists may romanticize it, but they are trying to address a serious and pervasive mentality in Western politics caused by liberals not knowing their place.
That's literally all "races" though, I know Blacks who hate the shit out of Mixed people and hate lighter skinned Blacks even more. Also completely bullshit the IWW accept minorities back in the day and they stood side by side at the picket lines so this idea of muh evil white people can go get fucked.
That's true though because there is no upper white caste it's not fucking Colonial India there is only the bourgeoisie (whites at a higher rate then blacks but then so are Jews and Chinese and Nigerians soooo) a unemployed white person living in a drug filled country-town is worse off then a fully employed black with a good union job living in California or a major city hands down, the idea this unemployed white somehow benefits more then the Black is stupidy.
Bullshit no sourced anecdotal evidence you're pulling out your ass
It's not so much a race issue but a class and wealth issue (sure whites are "middle-class" and wealthier on average but then why not just call them that instead of shoehorning muh race into this). Thomas Sankara was betrayed by the middle-class as well despite him freeing them all from France so there's more to it then skin.
The white working class are workers none the less and a socialist movement in the first world will inevitably have to be made up of a lot of white people. tbh you sound like a idpol drenched liberal with a hate boner for white people. pic related an actual Socialist capable of forming a movement, unlike redliberals who kick out everyone who's not a disabled black Muslim.
Youre retarded
dude you just dont understand how SYSTEMS OF OPPRESSION (tm) work read settlers lmao
This is settlers-tier faggotry, kys OP.
Ok, now I don't know if this is bait or that there exist people who actually think Nagle is an Asserite. Really hope its the former.
you may think this, but I can assure you they don't see it that way. The white working class is always going to think of itself as white rather then as working class.
I never claimed that materially a poor white person is better off than a rich coloured person. Material interest rarely drives the politics of white people in general, hence why they are more prone to fascism than socialism. Even if they are poor, they still think of themselves as superior to someone else. They have this base level of chauvinism that doesn't go away. In the social democratic utopia of Australia, there is a strong union movement in the mining sector etc…but still rampant racism and white identity politics. Probably they will elect their own Donald Trump very soon (Haspel)
I never said white workers don't suffer under capitalism. The fact that you have to say the phrase "White Working Class" just goes to show that there is an element of white identarianism in this line. Why not just working class? Whites who are revolutionary will rebel against their whiteness. Would any of you defend the Jewish working class in Israel even when they spit on Palestinians? Would you defend the Hindu working class in India even when they spit on lower caste Hindus, Muslims, and Sicks?
When Bernie Sanders claims that the migrant caravan is a conspiracy by the billionaires (tm), rather than explaining the connection to american regime change and imperialism, is this not white identity politics?
For everyone calling me a liberal, isn't a basic requirement of communist the destruction of the US? How do you defend settler-colonial states? Just apply any of your arguments for the precious and innocent white working class, and apply it to the Israeli Jewish working class. You'll realise how clownish you sound
Most of the so-called “white working class” in Burgerland are, in fact, petty bourgeoisie who own a pickup or listen to country or something. Most of the white working class are disenfranchised and not actively engaged in politics.
Here’s a member of the white working class:
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In any case, whatever you think of my argument, you should understand why outfits like the Nation of Islam are more popular in the black community than communists are. I've met so many white leftists who sincerely don't understand why that is, or how that could come to be. People who have seen what the White Working Class is capable of are understandably wary of any sort of alliance. They are very wary of the false unity, which social democrats (most of them white and illiterate) keep pushing for. Wanting false unity for its own sake is opportunistic and liberal in nature.
Sorry I attacked mommy, bukkko but if you go on Tucker Carlson at a time like this to shit on immigrants, probably you're a fascist
I'll repeat this: Socialism doesn't mean 'free shit for whitey', it means international proletarian revolution
You're the one who started using the term, people are just repeating you.
What the actual fuck? Have you actually read Marx, or even Lenin? You're literally dividing workers up by ethnicity, nation, race, and religion. Reminder faggot, communists are anti-class, were universalists and we don't preoccupy ourselves with being fetishists who focus on being pro-(x) worker.
Becuse the government killed off prominant black communists or drove them out of groups using cointelpro?
Kys, you're not a communist, you're a liberal and at worst, a reactionary. With luck, hopefully the mods ban you.
Yeah this. The Nation of Islam for all its faults (its anti-Semitism is one of its less charming features) actually shows up to shit, and the organization does not give a spit what white people think of them. I don't particularly like that it worked out this way, but it did and my opinion doesn't really matter.
Part of the reason but I think that's reductive and is used to explain away failures of white communists to gain the trust of the black population in the United States. These communities have seen lots of well-meaning white people show up in their neighborhoods with offers to "help" them, but there's no follow-through. John Brown was a legit white man and it cost him his life.
Lol KYS
Literally every major political figure black people idolize, saving perhaps for Malcolm X, was a socialist or communist. MLK, the Black Panthers, Angela Davis, etc. It’s just been buried, like how most people think Helen Keller fell off the face of the earth after saying “wa-wa”
That's true – although this is why I made sure to specify "white communists." Again, it's easy to say you're only about the class struggle, but it's a different thing to practice that shit in reality and really grapple with what that means. And I'm not saying I practice what I preach, either.
Like, case in point, you mentioned Angela Davis.
Angela Davis took a judge hostage and then – allegedly (I should note she was found not guilty) – blew the pig's head off with a shotgun during a shootout with the cops. Most of these other people, including Malcolm, MLK and plenty of the Black Panthers were willing to die for their beliefs. How many white communists can you say that about in America?
Robert F. Williams was willing to put his life on the line to protect a white couple who got stranded in a crossfire during a gun battle with the Ku Klux Klan in Monroe, North Carolina. He later took off for Hanoi in 1965 and advocated for armed resistance to U.S. imperialism. Then he moved to Cuba, where with the support of the Cuban government published a newspaper – The Crusader – and broadcasted a radio program called Radio Free Dixie which advocated for black self-determination and armed resistance to white supremacy in the United States. Guess what: he got the most shit directed at him from the Communist Party USA because they worried he'd divide the working class along racial lines. "The whole thing is due to the fact that I absolutely refuse to take direction from Gus Hall’s idiots."
Just saying.
The most critical and essential point of class struggle is for people to unite by class. That means looking past such things like identity or race and speaking broadly to workers everywhere. If you have a situation where black socialist leaders are only focusing on blacks and white socialist leaders are only focusing on whites, you have a problem. But that's why socialists like Hampton did not do that. His class message spread wide and his coalition was made up of different people of different backgrounds, which is why he gained the prominance he did and why he was targeted. The answer isn't to focus on specific groups, but to speak to the class issues we all share.
Literally all the labour movements and leaders of the 1920s and 1930s.
I agree with all of that. But there's a lot of talking and mooing sounds, and not a lot of doing. Including from myself. So I'm going to shut up now.
Obama, Coleman Young, Maynard Jackson, Medgar Evers, many werent anywhere near the left (granted Young was until he got elected)
Angela Davis hasn't been buried (being alive helps). And despite Beyonce's bullshit most black people know that the Panthers were radical.
That's the term I normally use unless I'm dealing with an idpol cunt.
If you'd just left your OP at "hey guys, have you noticed how some fascists and spineless SucDems fetishise white working class" most of us wouldn't have responded to this thread. The reason you strike me as a RadLib is you went onto spout this "your precious little white worker is reactionary fascist and only a small minority will allign with the Left" bullshit.
Working class solidarity regardless of race is the only basis from which we can work if we want to reach socialism. It's a hard task that most of the time fails, because true class conciousness is a very fleeting thing. I understand the black or immigrant workers predicament is doubly hard because they also have to face racism, and I'm probably being an unreasonable cunt towards you, but it really royally pisses me off when some comrade starts spouting these resentful, belittling radlib talking points.
Then why haven't white communists replaced them and gained popularity amongst the black community?
Maybe my OP was too much, I usually would also call them working class, but the excessive placating and pandering from some social democrats was also getting excessive. It reminded me about the Hillary Clinton 'hot sauce' moment but geared towards whites
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That may be true a long time ago, but todays figures are more along the lines of Umar Johnson, Tariq Nasheed, Farrakhan etc..
Of course there exists a black bougie class, which black working class people aspire to a whole lot more than they aspire to destroy capitalism (can you really blame them?)
can you really blame the white workers for exhibiting the exact same tendency?
It's almost like both blacks and whites are human, with same ideological baggage and discussing their "revolutionary potential" separately is meaningless.
This is not Tumblr
This has been my experience, too. I grew up in a weird area that has both a large “rural white” and a large “urban black” population. One thing I’ve noticed is the very same people who complain about how the place I grew up is filled with “rednecks” and “white trash,” these Very. Same. People. Will go on to complain that it’s also too “ghetto” and something about “can’t go in certain neighborhoods.” They’ll only be explicit about the first one. See these are good liberals, and they want me to know they have problems with those types, because see now they tend to be racist unlike “us good whites.” Usually not in the same conversation, but sometimes, if it’s brought up again, suddenly the “ghetto” or “run-down” shit comes out, and they’re a bit less forthcoming about who they’re talking about. But I’m sure they don’t mean anything by that. After all, they’re good, liberal bourgeoisie whites, who radlibs will always defend as being more “progressive” than the “reactionary” working-class of the same skin-tone.
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The only reason there’s so much goddamn pandering from Succdems are people like you. A lot of people bring up COINTELPRO here for good reason, but I think very few have read the Freedom of Information Act files that have been released. This wishy-washy radlib game you’re playing comes from the Chicago FBI division circa 1968 in order to destroy the fairly moderate Students for a Democratic Society. Racial division was their biggest weapon. And eventually SDS were destroyed, using those same tactics discussed, by “Radical Youth Movement” / Weathermen / Weather Underground, a collection of Bourgeoisie radlib whites posing as “communists.” But no one’s allowed to discuss whether the leaders of WU were probably on J. Edgar’s payroll.
1. See above. The Black Panthers despised the WU. Even though they helped the idiotic “Algiers” wing led by Cleaver. I think he honestly hated them too. These rich kids became the face of “white communism” to radical black movements, because they essentially appointed themselves ambassadors for “their race,” since they thought, like you do, that “the white working class” were unwoke reactionaries. It goes without saying that a lot of black communists thought they were racist. Maybe they were, maybe they weren’t, but how the bourgeoisie tend to treat the “white” working class is exactly how they’ll treat the “black” working class. We need to find truly find tactics that bring people together, and learn to move and find new tactics to bring people together without falling into the same traps The New Left fell into, which was an abject failure.
2.“Black” Americans are nearly as idpozzed as “White” Americans. The country’s suffering under the economy, and the best Porky has to keep people from coming together is to stoke the racial insecurities inherent in Muttland.