P2 Lodge

That's got to be the darndest thing I've seen all week.

I've got an interesting little story to share. Been going to a lodge nearby for a few years as a guest, here's what I've been told.

They are a traditional lodge so idk how heterodox that view, could just be his own opinion. According to Russian wiki Bakunin was initiated at an indeterminate date, as early as 1845 to as late as somewhere in the 60s, by Garibaldi himself. It's pretty crazy reading all of this, he became a 32nd degree mason of the Scottish rite in '65, so this wasn't some paramasonic lodge that accepted atheists AND he was the head of a lodge in Florence. His organization "Alliance" is described as paramasonic and he himself was hoping to utilize freemasonry to advance his anarchist agenda.

Imagine that, reactionaries were right for once that there was a masonic conspiracy tied with the left. But then again, they accuse everyone of being part of it, so it's more of a scattershot situation.

Anyway, back at the lodge, after most of the masons left only I, a senior mason and another guest remained. So I started inquiring more boldly…
I began by asking about alchemy and the occult, if it's really all just symbolism. He says "yes, most of it" and that at the higher degrees you "get to see some stuff." I was puzzled but intrigued, what is he talking about? I asked about metaphysics, is there some sort of force? "Magick"? His answers started being more reluctant, he tried to brush me off and tried his best to avoid giving a straight answer. He gave me this analogy, think of what we're messing here in our world is some small amount of voltage, something an electrician can handle, but at the higher degree it's thousands of volts. I'm still confused, and press further, is it metaphysics? "No" he finally leases an answer, it's more akin to technology, if you traveled back in time 200 years and showed them a smartphone they'd think it's magic as well. Now we're getting somewhere. Then he tells me about the Kabbalah, which is far more ancient than its colloquial Jewish connotation. All cultures and civilizations received this the Kabbalah, or a parcel of it, eons ago, and that is the origin of Freemasonry. Eons? "Yes," eons, go back to 1717 and you have the modern, traditional form of Freemasonry, go back to the Templar Order and you have a slightly different one, go back to Solomon and you are getting closer to the original core, go back 13,000 years and you have the very first Orders. Orders of what - I ask - cavemen? Now he attempts his best to not give a straight answer, it might be out of embarrassment or it might be out of his vow for secrecy, but starts heavily implying that human evolution had an intervention. When? 13,000 years ago. By whom? By entities (that is, not some species, but ambiguous entities) from another world (that is, not another planet). How? They were more advanced than us. Wow, so this is the great secret of Freemasonry? Reruns of Ancient Aliens on the history channel? Well, I asked him if he meant aliens, he only said "beings more advanced than us." Looking back I think he might have meant extradimensional beings, rather than extraterrestrials, a la Archons in Gnosticism and or reptilians as brought to us by David Icke.
Was kind of crazy hearing that sort of thing.

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so are you saying that intergalactic imperialist scum keeps us humans down?

I don't think he meant that. The fellows previously told me that everything will be revealed, but only in the right time and place. They were talking about the general secrets of Freemasonry and the universe, but I'd assume it applies to the latter fellows theories as well. I should mention, he didn't make it clean if it's just his take or something typical or a version of it high ranking masons believe.

A day will come and our 4th dimension bourgeoisie will fall.

Yes, freemason are retarded.

Fun read. I think the paramasonic organizations are actually more influential than proper masons.

At 1:40:45 the part on P2 is shown in this British documentary. It's about 30 minutes long.

youtube.com/watch?v=Dyl3RQXsqGQ

So were these guys like the politicians from that pasolini film "Salo" in real life basically?

I have seen no evidence to support the sexual half of that argument, but otherwise yes.

No. They were on another level. At max they were some of their goons.

aren't masons liberals? like the founding fathers of the united states?

Yes. Freemasonry has always been the party of the bourgeoisie. Today that it's in decay it's more dangerous than before, just like liberalism that is really giving us a new sort of feudalism.

It was a CIA backed, anti-communist fluke. The lodge was kicked out of freemasonry before they even partook in Cold War US-backed covert operations.

Silvio Berlusconi was a member of the lodge and likely made his wealth and success in the media industry through the backing of fellow members and western intelligence agencies. Also, the head of the lodge said in an interview some years back that it seemed like Burlesconi was still pursuing the neo-fascist plan of the lodge, which boiled down to control the media to gradually influence public opinion toward their far-right politics, basically classic manufacturing consent tactics but well organized.

Freemasonry wasn't and isn't a political organization.

aren't they now just a bunch of pretentious old men LARPing about running the world?

It's more like a religion that nobody takes literally. They do rituals that are meant as allegories. They'll joke about taking over the world, but they just hang out.

The Royal Order of Jesters seems like a shady crew. They are less connected than cloistered.

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19th cebtury history in europe and north and south america is not complete without a mention of the masons. They were decisive and shady elements in French, Mexican, early republican US. Masonic circles were forms of social networking and conspiratorial politics. Everyone of note in 19th cebtury mexican politics was a mason, for example. So were all the french republican politicians in the third republic. So were almost all the politicians in the 1917 provisional government. In common too is that they were kind of “alt-religion” in Catholic countries where clerical economic and social politics was overwhelming and their monopoly in religious interpretation was absolute. It was therefore a more palatable enlightment type of christianity and deism filled with spiritual meaning but apart from the repuslive and dogmatic,militant catholicism of the ultramontane variety of the 19th century Church. This is why it was popular among liberal elitist circles who wanted to assert themselves as a class independent of church discipline

They're also relevant to 21st century politics.

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Tito banned Freemasonry. Which is somewhat ironic considering the Ustaše persecuted the Freemasons.

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I've heard some of this, by some anarchist dude, that supposedly was a Freemason and he was in an anarchist lodge, I thought that was ridiculous and extremely shady.
I don't believe in any super natural anything like that, it's kind of interesting, but not real.

The Anarchist lodge was probably paramasonic.

Does paramasonic mean an organization run by freemasons on their own time unconnected to official freemasonry, or does it mean organizations inspired by/structured similarly to freemasonry?

This. Masonic is to Marxist as paramasonic is to Marxian.

Tbf Tito pretty-much shut down every religious institution in Yugoslavia after the war as an attempted "hard reset", so freemasonry being a part of that makes sense.

It all boils down to the so called "Democratic Rebirth Plan", a scheme advocating for:
- the break up of the political order of the time (check) and its replacement with a two-party system, even though it had to be disguised as a two-coalition system for a while (check, even though the last years have brought that into question, but it's now just an issue of form, not substance);
- the move from a parliamentary, proportional system toward an increasingly authoritarian, pseudo-presidential, possibly first-past-the-post system (a la De Gaulle, it that makes sense, with a "governance over representation" approach) (partly check);
- the move from a heavily regulated, dirigiste, statist economy toward a neoliberal, privatised, no muh-rules-and-regulations economy (partly check, still too much people living on some kind of gibmedat to go full Thatcher, and I'm not talking about piss poor people, plus an entrenched cultural element of having to do byzantine nonsense even to take a shit);
- the annihilation and dismembering of labour power, crushing genuine unions doing workers' interests while co-opting yellow unions (a big fat check);
- the annihilitaion of even the smallest possibility of developing some kind of political culture worth of this name thanks to an americanised, consumerist, "hedonist" kind of message incessantly spread through a new private group of tv networks (check - see Silvio Berlusconi) plus the state tv following suit (check - see Ettore Bernabei): American soap operas (Dallas, Dynasty and all that jazz), silly quiz shows promising obscene amounts of money, trash films idolising a yuppie lifestyle (see the nephew of Ramon Mercader and all the cinepanettoni he starred in), variety shows live on Saturday's prime time going on for hours and hours with a crapload of hosts, dozens of dancers, an orchestra playing live music, international guests and so on and finally lurid, almost pornographic late night shows (see Colpo Grosso) full of silly comedians and naked or almost naked pieces of ass (bear in mind all this shit was watched by people in Bunker country and, when Enver's glorious kingdom came to an end, there were ships full of people crossing the sea thinking they were getting to actually existing Eldorado, but they only got to Otranto…);
- iirc, something about weakening public schools to the benefit of private ones, which had to be partly financed by the state and at the same time remaining unaccessible to workers' children (check).
And sho on and sho on. Shniff.

"Democratic" here stands for "anti-communist" obviously.

Btw, it's a quite standard neoliberal agenda. And considering the relatively fragile condition Italy is (and was) in compared to more advanced capitalist countries, a fantastic recipe to push back the working class again to Latin American conditions while local porkies get more and more comprador by the day.
I don't know why it had to take this "freemasonry" shape. Keep in mind we are talking about Wops, and Wops love being clowns. That's what happens when you leave a people at the mercy of counter-reformist, tridentine cucktholicism for 300 years and then you shove a badly cooked "unified" liberal state down their throat all at once, with an abhorrent side dish of Melodramma and cheesy "patriotic" literature. I regret this place wasn't liberated (for real) by Uncle Joe, so a lot of this human dross would have being gulag'd instead of playing "muh freemason" or "muh gladiators" fighting "muh gommunism".

Pic related was card #1816.

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They also sided against the anarchist in Spain.
Judging from the ones I've met, I think they are inherently kind of scummy.
The higher up you go, the more delusional some of these people are. I met a grandmaster that believed people would literally fight take up arms for him if he called on them, despite the fact all they did was mostly sit around and drink.

doubt.jpg

Homo sapiens, Humans in their present form, appeared some 200,000 years ago. Around 10,000BCE is the date when the pyramids in Egypt, Cambodia and Central America are thought to have been built.

He is literally using shit he saw on the 'History channel' or popular history documentaries that always end with a 'but do we really know what happened? *dun dun dun*'

hooktube.com/watch?v=oEmIwgwtN48

Counterrevolution never looked so good.

If you read The Alchemical Keys to Masonic Ritual by Timothy Hogan it goes into this. You can find it online or buy it. Either way it's about 50 pages long so it's an easy read.

Freemasonry tells a story by an allegory of stone masons. That allegory is itself an allegory too. The masonic rituals are coded older Middle Eastern rituals. These rituals had elements of Egyptian mythology, Sufism, and Christian Gnosticism. All of these systems used alchemy to describe the transmutation of man from the physical to the spiritual.

The Knights Templar became familiar with alchemy in the Middle East and commissioned cathedrals in Europe covered in alchemical symbols. At which point masons learned the alchemical practices. For a multitude of reasons the Knights Templar and alchemists were banned and their practices suppressed. Except among masons.

Most Freemasons are content with the mason allegory without having to delve into alchemical rituals. Furthermore this reopens Christian fundamentalist critiques that Freemasonry is a resurrection of Gnosticism or Paganism. This combined with a desire to minimize wewuzing is why this knowledge is largely suppressed within Freemasonry itself.

As for the deeper truths here I don't think you have to try to turn lead into gold to see something at work. Namely it rejects literalist religious views, embraces comparative religion, and views the truth as attainable during life. That's what makes Freemasonry revolutionary.

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That doesn't sound revolutionary at all.
It sounds like scientology.

Imagine that you lived in a world where you were killed if you didn't believe the Bible meant exactly what the priest said it meant and you weren't allowed to read it. Then people say that the Bible isn't literal and the truth can be found another way.

It's not that hard to imagine if you were a Lutheran.
They actually did something about it though.
also
Yeah, this is just scientology

Every rejection of the status quo seems obvious in hindsight. Considering the Crusades predated Martin Luther your argument doesn't hold water. I'm sorry you can't appreciate historical context, but others on this board can.

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what do you think of Rene Guenon's study of Freemasonry?

Agriculture wasn't even discovered yet.

So their plan was/is just to turn Italy into a mini America?
That is pretty bad.

I think the implication, if you believe him, is that humanity's development of civilization was sparked by some "beings" since 10,000-13,000 years ago would be around the time people first started forming the earliest permanent settlements.

Exactly. Hence their connections with Gladio.

That's the situation pretty much everywhere
I feel like that in a couple of decades people will forget the NATO aggression here and Serbia will finally end

Yeah, i have a racist cop brother who hangs at a lodge and they're pretty reactionary. The only upside to the lodge he was apart of was that the grandmaster was elvis's cousin.

And Elvis killed John Kennedy, sketchy enough.

It's not about hindsight bias, but they are somehow revolutionary for doing nothing.
also,
It's basically a cult of larpers established during the renaissance. If at anytime they were proven to be "revolutionary", it would be then.

I'm sure that's a pure coincidence.

I would attribute the prevalence of historical figures in this fraternity partially as a result of secret societies being necessary at those times to accomplish any serious societal goals, so Freemasonry is a natural attraction as an established brotherhood, and then from that the possibilities to connect with other likeminded individuals who mostly stemmed from liberal and emancipatory backgrounds (hence the need for a secret society to hide from absolutist regimes). That was Garibaldi's reasoning, it was a useful society. This need for secrecy from the regime and a natural congregation of likeminded individuals explains why in the post-WW2 era it was fertile grounds for reactionaries, at least in Italy.

If Freemasonry was an exclusive club then maybe you'd have a point about listing those four men, but any man could join provided he had the few requirements.

Membership in secret societies was the norm for any educated man at the time. Freemasonry particularly provided a safe haven for these educated men to theorize and implement their newfangled liberal idea in a world where reactionary feudalists and monarchists were out to get them.