Nordic mode: explained and debunked

People often talk about Nordic model as answer to all of humanity's problems and end goal of historic development. I am thinking perhaps we could have thread dedicated to analyse why these countries are rich(other than imperialism) and more importantly what problems and hardships's do proletariat and common people face there. I am especially interested about finland, since, unlike it's neighbor sweden this country has few natural resources and actually fought in both world wars, and was bombed.

For starters here are some articles and information I wound.

independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/why-denmark-isnt-the-utopian-fantasy-it-is-made-out-to-be-a6720701.html

theguardian.com/commentisfree/cif-green/2009/sep/24/norway-ethical-oil-environment-arms

businessinsider.com/swedens-dirty-secret-they-arm-dictators-2014-5

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_in_Sweden

P.S. When in doubt, read Stalin!
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_fascism

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Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Denmark
independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/why-denmark-isnt-the-utopian-fantasy-it-is-made-out-to-be-a6720701.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_Finland
wired.com/story/denmarks-carbon-footprint-is-set-to-balloonblame-big-tech/).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_in_Sweden#Gold
investingnews.com/daily/resource-investing/precious-metals-investing/gold-investing/gold-mining-in-finland-is-booming/
twitter.com/AnonBabble

Nordic are trash, I sincerely hope that the Abduls wipe them off forever.

other than racism, agree

why don't you go breed with your momma

i only bred my cousin once ok

Enjoy the ice age LMAO

They are mutually exclusive things, sorry.

say the swede lol

literally guen?

I have found some information on Denmark energy sector here
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Denmark
independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/why-denmark-isnt-the-utopian-fantasy-it-is-made-out-to-be-a6720701.html

However I still haven't fully cracked why Finland and Denmark are so rich (other than well government city states)

Finland is one of the worst countries with slavery. I am not shitting.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_Finland

my very ad-hoc impression is that Norway and Finland are more meme variants of the "Nordic model", Denmark is more like Britain with Nordic aesthetics, and that while Sweden is the purest strain even they're not the near-ideal-under-capitalism they were circa 1960-70.
The big problem with the model is that it merely demonstrates certain things are possible under capitalism (such as a meaningful role for trade unions, slightly higher public spending and taxes, or welfare that isn't always starvation level), the model as a whole has a huge degree of path-dependency. You can't just ctrl+c, ctrl+v it into other countries, even if there's no harm in pushing for it (or desired elements of it) and seeing what results, since the local implementation will inherently differ.

Tier 1 is "Tier 1 Countries whose governments fully comply with the TVPA's minimum standards." though, the worst is Tier 3.

It's not that surprising honestly. Most of Finland is just empty space and it is a necessary transit country from Russia to the rest of Scandinavia.

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Nah the Nords are pretty alright. Far better than mainland Germanics and the A*glos

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you salty subhuman freaks Nordic finger nails are worth more than your entire civilization's intelligentsia

bye bye apes

In Denmark, the bourgeois(borgerlige) parties are destroying the so-called welfare model. More than 60000 children live in poverty, the climate action is insufficient and the surveillance is extremely prevalent now that they have access to palantir technology.

Nordic model is just capitalism with more welfare.

based 'boony boomer

feel like this ignores the interesting role that trade unions play/played historically.

one particularly interesting line of thought went thus: in an export-oriented country like sweden, economic outcomes were largely determined outwith the country - i.e. by the state of those they were exporting to, since if they were having a boom they'd buy more, and in a crash they'd buy less. in consequence, there was great incentive for trade unions and capitalists to collaborate to best deal with that situation, whereas in Britain for example, having at one point actually mattered, there was much more for the capitalists to want to defend and the workers to demand, including the ability to set the agenda.
(i've kind of oversimplified and butchered it, but without saying it's good the institutional role of trade unions in the nordic and german economies compared to the role in the anglosphere clearly differs.)

The nordic model works through having strong unions that are able to secure greater purchasing power and other benefits for the humble labourer. The capitalists can't easily compete by taking the shortcut of slashing wages, so they're forced to innovate and seek more effective production methods to stay competitive. This is why the welfare system stays sustainable-ish, because the economy is sufficiently advanced to maintain it, and it incentivizes further technological advancements. There are some problems, of course:

1. Technological innovation abroad is a direct threat to the Nordics' way of life, as technology remains its chief competitive advantage since they can't compete on labour costs (without compromising their standards of living). When competing producers abroad can offer similar technological expertise and quality to lower prices, the Nordic social democracies will be forced to fuck over the workers for the sake of "keeping the economy competitive". They're for that reason very vulnerable to the eternal spectre of free trade.

2. This system only came about through union power. As social democracy increases complacency, union membership decreases and the system comes under greater pressure from neoliberal empty suits as its most important pillar starts to form cracks. In other words, Nlrdic welfare states depend on a balance of power between labour and capital for their maintenance, but at the same time, the complacency it breeds among the working class tends to cause that balance to weigh progressively to the side of capital, making the system POLITICALLY unsustainable.

Hope this made sense.

Maybe they need to move towards syndicalism

Don't trade unions play an even heavier role in Germany?

So why is Finland and Denmark rich?

Dane here, Denmark isn't actually that rich. We were probably the worst of the Nordic countries in recovering from 2008, and our GDP per capita has been stagnant ever since. People here overstate how wealthy Nordic countries are, as well as how expensive the "Nordic model" actually is. Stuff like universal healthcare, free education, and other public services aren't any more expensive than their privatised counterparts (quite the contrary is some cases), they're just different ways of distributing resources. You don't need to be an oil state to do this stuff (the only ones who got really rich off oil is Norway, and we hate them for it), you just need a developed economy, and the Nordic countries do not benefit more from imperialism than any other western country (and frankly, the idea that imperialism is some universal net positive for western workers is false. Workers have suffered immensely from the decline of industry, globalisation, etc.).

As for the problems, and there are plenty (though all the ones in the OP are terrible) touches on some of it. Wages in the Nordic countries are very high, and prices are equally high. The only sectors that are really competitive are either the ones that benefit from our educated workforce or the ones that simply cannot be anywhere but here. Our tech advantage is slowly dwindling (thanks in part to the terrible policies of our neoliberal overlords, I'll get to that), and the caveat of having a highly paid, educated workforce is that if you are not highly paid and well-educated you can hardly afford to live. There was a time where a "minimum wage" job (we don't actually have a minimum wage, it depends on the union) barely paid more than unemployment benefits - the reason of course being that benefits were set at a level which provided a minimum sustainable living, and the minimum wage jobs were also at that level - and the reaction of our dear leaders was to lower benefits to something less than liveable and forcing every unemployed person to accept any shitty job within a two-hour drive (each way). Also, because of these high wages, and because Danish workers (rightfully) refuse to accept jobs that have unliveable wages in order to be "competitive", we are highly reliant on foreign workers to do the shitty menial jobs that we can't or won't do.
As I have alluded to, Denmark has suffered from the same neoliberal turn which has hit literally every other country in the western world, and it has done its very best to destroy all the lovely things workers and unions have fought tooth and nail for in the last century. I can't blame all of this on our politicians, a lot of it has to do with globalisation and the international market, but it can't be denied that every politician who isn't a fucking socialist is a neoliberal traitor who deserves to be hanged (especially the socdems). One example, around the turn of the millennium, is the "rebranding" of our welfare system by the Liberal party into what they called "Flexicurity" (yes, in English because they're soulless, corporate cunts who have been brainwashed by Americans), which basically meant using our rapidly declining unemployment benefits to prop up shitty practices and terrible job security of our corporations, while also harassing unemployed people into taking shitty jobs, as I described above. This failed massively, of course, because our politicians are fucking idiots who can't manage an economy beyond one term and who only care about amassing enough favours and golden handshakes to retire in wealth and comfort once they are inevitably hounded out of office.
IMO, the policies of the "Nordic model" - high wages, socialised and well-maintained public services, and strong unions - are all good things and something socialists all over should aspire to achieve, but it just isn't sustainable under a capitalist system and world economy. The socdem utopia is impossible, you need socialism.

Thanks. How much truth in that Denmark is depended on fossil fuels and polluting energy sector? How did Denmark develop enough to achieve welfare state?

We have a small oil industry in the North Sea, and we were hit a bit by the massive decline in oil prices around 2014-15. We have a large per capita ecological footprint (the fourth largest), but this is mostly due to our massive agriculture sector. We do have a large green energy sector, and we are taking some steps towards sustainability, but it's not nearly good enough. Denmark suffers from the same problem in this regard that every other country does, in that the only options that can be considered are the ones that make rich people money. So you have a lot of liberal politicians talking about windmills and electric cars, but not cuts to airlines or expanding public transportation. Denmark is also set to have a lot of big tech companies setting up shop here, which is gonna mean massively increased energy consumption that will erase years of progress (see wired.com/story/denmarks-carbon-footprint-is-set-to-balloonblame-big-tech/). But since our economy has been basically dead for ten years now - despite repeated insistence by our politicians that the economy is recovering - we welcome them with open arms.
As for how we got this developed, I don't really know. We have a big export economy (still, somehow), we had a lot of foreign investment post-WW2, but aside from that I have no idea.

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Source?

Got it from this handy graph, but you can find lots of articles about it.

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reminder that Russia is just a buffer state between Finland and Korea

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Great answers. Do you know anything about Binland?
How did it became rich enough for a welfare state?
Does it has any resources?
What hardships do people face?

Also what are some hardships that people in Denmark face? You know other than that while wages are high everything is expensive?

I don't know anything about Finland, sorry. I don't think it's as rich as the rest of the Nordic countries.

Mostly the same hardships that all other western countries are facing. Austerity is the big one. We have a huge proportion of public workers (teachers, nurses, etc.) and they are all being fired or having their wages cut. Politicians call it "effektivisering". A bunch of years ago, back when I was in school, our teacher's union was betrayed by the socdem government. They got locked out for months and were then forced to accept an education reform which saw their working hours massively increase, for no extra pay. The agreement meant that they no longer got paid for working at home, which meant they could only do prep work for classes and stuff at the school, so not only were they fucked over, the kids they were teaching also suffered. I once worked at a school for a bit and it was crazy how overworked they were. They barely had time for any of the kids in class.
There's also the decline in job opportunities. I got to experience this first-hand as an unemployed person without higher education. There just aren't any jobs unless you have years of job experience or an advanced degree, and don't expect any help from the "welfare state". My parents didn't have this problem, and my grandparents certainly didn't. And despite all of this the retirement age keeps going up. Not only are there no jobs for young people, we can't afford to take the old people off work.
Overall there's this sense that our generation is gonna be significantly worse off than the one before it, and I dread to think what's gonna be left for the next one. But then again it's the same thing everywhere else.

Do you have any sources on austerity, firings and other hardships? In English or Danish?

WADDA FUGG KUWAIT
t. burger

US has been most polluting country, since perhaps it's inception. Already in the 90's it was already more polluting than USSR or China.

I don't have any comprehensive sources, especially not in English, sorry. This is mostly just anecdotes and what little news I can recall off the top of my head. Anyway I need to sleep, I might answer any questions tomorrow.

Stockholm was the most atomised, alienated society I've seen, and I've been to London.

The social safety net actually seems worse in Sweden than the UK too, especially for healthcare.

Hot take: The Nordics boast the most well-off working class in the world. Disassociating leftism with them in favor of whatever ML shitshow you enjoy the most is shooting yourself in the foot.

Instead of going ACKSHUALLY whenever nordic "socialism" comes up try to be smart about it and stop being an autist about definitions.

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Never forget the Finland Korean war

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_in_Sweden#Gold

investingnews.com/daily/resource-investing/precious-metals-investing/gold-investing/gold-mining-in-finland-is-booming/

Social democracy is a bandage on a bullet wound. It may be your only real option if you're in burgerland or some other overly classcucked nation, but that doesn't change the fact that it is a fair-weather policy that neoliberals will invariably demolish.
Pic related.

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where would scandinavia be without big daddy sam? russia, thats where

I am Norwegian, and I can safely say our economy is as rock solid as it has ever been. We do not profit of imperialism, most of our products can be traced to a first world nation. Our population enjoys a very high standard of living and great job opportunities. I have never felt unsafe in my life.
Could you stop spreading misinformation about my country?

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Guess where our copper, corn, wood and iron come from? Chile, USA, Sweden/Finland and Australia. Oil and fish is home-made too.
I know technological things come from China, but we are not imperializing them, and we just trade with them because it's convenient.

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I know that they are welfare states, I am asking how did they became welfare states.

For example i was homeless for about a month and the state provided me a rental apartment. If im hungry and without money the state gives me food stamps. Now i study economics for "free" in university and the state gives me money for it. The cost of this education is about 80 000€ .

Evidently through strong unions and over a century of political stability under mostly socdem governments.

they are all SPD-tier bootlickers with the exception of the fairly weak IWW and the anarcho-communist FAU

Quality post.

Litteraly through fascism. Race purity laws included till the 80s.

As things should be