I have two important questions for Zig Forums

Grayson Wright
Grayson Wright

I have two important questions for Zig Forums.

1. Has the white working class(read: actual proles and not small business owners without a degree) in America become too reactionary to salvage for socialism? Have they gone full lumpen?

2. Is there a Marxist interpretation of why the children of bourgies and those of "high education" join and dominate organizations like the D.S.A. and other American socialist organizations as opposed to actual working class people?

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Other urls found in this thread:

nonsite.org/editorial/what-materialist-black-political-history-actually-looks-like
bennorton.com/adolph-reed-identity-politics-is-neoliberalism/
youtube.com/watch?v=YVkUvmDQ3HY
people-press.org/2018/08/09/for-most-trump-voters-very-warm-feelings-for-him-endured/
theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/10/how-democrats-killed-their-populist-soul/504710/

Brayden Roberts
Brayden Roberts

The white working class in America is a lot like the working class of Israel or working class Protestants in Belfast, settler colonialism means they have more to lose than their chains, thus aren't properly "proletarian"

Jacob Brooks
Jacob Brooks

t. Sakai
Ebic

Ayden James
Ayden James

The stereotyped reactionary blue collar worker is a small fraction of the working class. The working class largely works retail and service industry jobs. The majority of the working class is checked out, apathetic and apolitical. Unions getting kneecapped and made entirely powerless is probably the biggest reason the working class doesn’t join leftist organizations. They aren’t exposed to leftist politics through the workplace anymore because at will employment and “right to work” has made it impossible to organize on the job. Workers are too tired and beaten down to seek out leftist politics in their free time. Get rid of legislation that kills union organizing and I’m sure you’d see an uptick in leftist organizing outside of academic circles.

Liam Gutierrez
Liam Gutierrez

I have yet to see a refutation of Settlers

Tyler Taylor
Tyler Taylor

Settlers is retarded.

There you go. All the refutation it deserves.

Jack Young
Jack Young

t. White leftoid

Henry Fisher
Henry Fisher

there is no white proletariat how many times do we have go over this if you're white and not rich buy guns and prepare for Nazi masturbation fantasy the kikes are whipping the poc into a frenzied blood lust that will make the Haitian revolution look like a diversity seminar

Chase Ward
Chase Ward

I don't know what world you're living in but it sounds based af cracka

Jeremiah Moore
Jeremiah Moore

1. Has the white working class(read: actual proles and not small business owners without a degree) in America become too reactionary to salvage for socialism? Have they gone full lumpen?
2. Is there a Marxist interpretation of why the children of bourgies and those of "high education" join and dominate organizations like the D.S.A. and other American socialist organizations as opposed to actual working class people?
Leftism in america is socdem at best except a handful of irrelevant other groups, so over course boojie kids want to join.

Alexander Adams
Alexander Adams

I'm like 9 beers in, wdhmbt?

Ryan Morales
Ryan Morales

god i can't wait to see you fags lose another world war

Benjamin Anderson
Benjamin Anderson

yes except this time it will be in literal self defense

Landon Robinson
Landon Robinson

A lot of it is education, the poor tend to be much less educated than the rich, both formally in a school and informally at home. The lack of education tends to make them easy targets for porky propaganda and idpol.

Ian Allen
Ian Allen

who hurt you sweaty?

just be nice to black people and they'll be nice to you it's not hard unless you are literally autistic

Liam Martinez
Liam Martinez

maybe black people are the autistic ones

did you ever think of that. they're certainly not very nice as a rule.

Andrew Jenkins
Andrew Jenkins

Whoever came up with the idea of tying education funding to property taxes should be tortured and executed.

Grayson Powell
Grayson Powell

The core of the argument of Settlers is that the US had a high agrarian population and higher than average wages than other European countries therefore making its proletariat reactionary.

But, wait, weren't most European countries which Sakai lionizes in the book peasant majority until the late 19th-early/mid 20th century?It isn't a well-known fact but it is a fact nonetheless that Brazil of all countries had a higher median wage than Italy and Spain–which is why South American actually attracted millions of European immigrants in the late 19th century.

If we applied settlers framework to Latin America then we would be forced to conclude that even much of South America is just hopelessly reactionary. A more succinct and coherent explanation would be that the New World in general experienced a labor shortage in the 19th century which led to higher than average wages in those places where slavery/feudal labor-systems were abolished or inapplicable.

Going by Sakai's reasoning since European workers earned far better wages than those available in Asia in the 18th-19th centuries we would also be forced to conclude that they were a hopeless labor aristocracy. In Sakai's pseudo-Marxist understanding higher living standards cannot be the result of natural historical development, technology, or class struggle but solely through colonialist pillage. What could Sakai's frame of reference tell us about the fact that Europeans were already the richest people in the early modern age even before capitalism itself became super-charged during the "Great Divergence"? Not much.

What would Sakai have to tell us about the fact that wherever Europeans settled en masse they also improved the economies of the regions they settled? Not much except maybe, in accordance with the eternal laws of fairness and justice, that it shouldn't have happened.

Sakai's argument seems to be that the US white proletariat is a lost cause because there was no Paris Commune in the US. But the Paris Commune was also a historical specific event that wasn't recreated anywhere prior to 1917. The US proletariat did play a key-role in the second American revolution (known as the Civil War) that destroyed the slave-system.

With the exception of the counter-revolutionary violence in Germany and France–the US labor wars were far bloodier than comparable uproars in Europe. Only in the US did the government bomb striking workers from the air during a guerrilla war of laborers that killed hundreds. The term "redneck" itself stems from the West Virginia miners who wore red bandanas to signify their class loyalty.

Of course, Adolphe Reed BTFOs this stuff far more eloquently than I ever could. Give him a read:
nonsite.org/editorial/what-materialist-black-political-history-actually-looks-like
bennorton.com/adolph-reed-identity-politics-is-neoliberalism/

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Ethan Nelson
Ethan Nelson

People who throw away white proles as "reactionary" ignore that most poor white proles, as much as poor non-white proles, don't vote(about 50%), historically can't or don't vote(Jim Crow Southern states often had a peak turnout of 25% and before Jim Crow the state governments were a coalition of poor white and poor black populists)and an even larger chunk aren't even registered or legally allowed to vote. There's also great evidence to suggest among these non-voters, the vast majority(75%+) favor restoring union rights, and most of these non-voters are white and low-income.
So why do poor working class whites vote against their interests?
They don't, the poor among the white working class are underrepresented at the polls by huge margins while the rest of the "white working class voters" are small business owners, low ranking managers, police, etc. Professions that have high turnout and are lumpen bootlickers to the core.
People also play ignorant to the fact that prole whites have shown revolutionary potential before.
in the buildup preceding the 1912 election peasant white and black sharecroppers were organized in baldwin county for the first time and elected a socialist mayor for the county's largest town and netted 13.5% for the socialist party's candidate that year, compared to 5% nationwide
in the deep south
Also the 1919 Seattle strike, where (virtually all-white) workers took over the city in an attempt to establish socialism.
Or even Richard Ojeda, who's twitter feed consists of him calling out people as "capitalists" got 45% of the vote in deep-red Trumpian country.

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Luis Mitchell
Luis Mitchell

Fucking love Adolphe Reed.

Eli Wright
Eli Wright

Settlers is a leftoid take

Justin Richardson
Justin Richardson

That aside, isn't calling them inherently reactionary deterministic to begin with and anti-Marxist?

Adrian Clark
Adrian Clark

Yes

William Ward
William Ward

Saw this on stupidpol the other day. Fucking love it when a radlib complains about not being able to call him a nigger, legit makes me kek my brains out.

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Josiah Turner
Josiah Turner

This. Ultimately it depends on how you define "working class." American reactionaries have a tendency to describe all working white men as workers even if they are petit bourg.

Carter Flores
Carter Flores

Moreover, in a sort of mission creep, opponents of what they decry as a “class-first” position increasingly have come to denounce any expressions of concern for economic inequality as in effect catering to white supremacy. This tendency, which Touré Reed has argued rests on a race-reductionism,4 has surfaced and spread within the newly revitalized Democrat Cops of America(DSA), as even many among those who consider themselves socialists object to the organization’s selection of Medicare for All as its key political campaign on the ground that pursuit of decommodified health care for all is objectionable because doing so does not sufficiently center antiracist and anti-disparitarian agendas. I submit that there’s clearly a problem when anti-socialism is defined as socialism.
You're right, user, he's pretty great.

Nathaniel Gomez
Nathaniel Gomez

The trick to survive as a white man in that scenario – like in the ghetto – is to be the craziest motherfucker in the room. Through that, you will gain respect from the black masses as they take out their much-needed and justified revenge on whitey.

youtube.com/watch?v=YVkUvmDQ3HY

Dylan Miller
Dylan Miller

There's a word for a person of color who is complacent in their own oppression, but I don't get to use it….
Fucking hell. That's somehow far more aggravating than actually being called an uncle tom. It's like a white person who doesn't even have the decency to call you a nigger and instead just calls you the "n-word"

Levi Kelly
Levi Kelly

The amount of mental gymnastics required to reach that point is incredible. One minute it's a white guy criticising white guys for not listening to the concerns of black people, the next minute after hearing he's black being like "fucking uppity n-words"

Adrian Sanders
Adrian Sanders

How do people get to this point, it's really pathetic

Xavier Brooks
Xavier Brooks

implying the education system isn't porky propaganda and idpol

Come on now.

Aiden Thomas
Aiden Thomas

White people who made less than median income (<30k) voted 44% for Hillary and 43% for Trump, per Pew Research Center. Click on the "Complete Report PDF" and go to page 24:

people-press.org/2018/08/09/for-most-trump-voters-very-warm-feelings-for-him-endured/

I've had a hard time finding a similar race-income cross section for the 2012 election, but I think we all know there was probably an even higher percentage for Obama considering he won most of the rustbelt states. But anyway, this is to say that even a double-crossing, pro-war, anti-labor centrist like Hillary Clinton garnered a slim majority of poor whites. White people in the working class vote according to what they currently perceive as their material interests, like anyone else, and as a whole are still receptive to left-wing politics. To the extent they've lessened their vote for candidates in the left spectrum, it's more likely because [1] most poor people don't vote (as the above Pew report shows) out of disillusionment with politics, [2] the decline of labor union membership since they were they were a chief way of organizing left wing politics throughout the working class, [3] the Democrats deliberately trying to shoehorn them out of party:

theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/10/how-democrats-killed-their-populist-soul/504710/

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Elijah Allen
Elijah Allen

Great post.
I’d also like to add that 35-40% of adults are favorable to socialism while only 25% of regular voters are.
Reactionary lumpen historically are much more easily motivated to get out and vote and seemingly dominate the electorate on the part of white proles.

Bentley Sanders
Bentley Sanders

You don't need to refute the theory to see that telling the majority of proles they have no place in the revolution unless they give up the land their ancestors have lived on for generations is only going to make them hate you.

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