I know shit flinging is this boards whole thing, but I think it's a good idea to contain arguing/autism a little bit, and keep the serious discussion to this thread (I.e what justifies purges, and the like) First thread OwO
Left unity, and sectarian discussion general thread
Stealing memes is peak illegalism comrade
Memes can't be stolen, this is the absolute peak of newfag thinking.
Do any Leninsts have any idea why orthodox syndicalism failed?
You're entitled to your own labour, and i didn't credit, but that's cool.
also curious about this
what justifies purges, and the like
no idea. i admire the bolsheviks overall and of course am disgusted by both the mainstream western slander of them as well as the anarkiddies that parrot it (not anarchists in general), there are some cases like kronstadt that just seems like they were unnecessary, heavy handed and set a bad precedent for how to deal with disagreements among genuine revolutionary socialists, even if i understand that it was wartime and the survival of a socialist state hung in the balance it didnt seem as if refusing to negotiate at all with workers and red navy seamen was completely necessary
Here's a question along the lines of the thread topic:
At what point does the far-left fetishize "purity" among activists/intellectuals?
For example, I've lived in three major American cities with vastly different sets of activists. In Boston, most leftists tend to be older and lean more towards Trotskyism or "Chomskyite" an-syn; they don't really care too much about genderqueer polyamorous vegan sex workers of color who have been through the prison system (and by that I mean, you don't have to *be* any of that in order to have credit as a leftist activist). In the Bay Area/Oakland however, there was a huge emphasis on that kind of thing, like no one there takes you seriously as a far-leftist unless you're a vegan genderqueer sex worker who has been through the prison system, i.e. if you're white and "cis" and from a suburban background everyone just assumes your views are reactionary or you aren't "leftist enough". In Philly there's a mix of both but anarchists generally lean more towards the purity shit.
this is why left orgs need dress codes. I agree with the guy who made that thread.
I.e what justifies purges, and the like
"If you're not a crusty with unwashed hair and a nosering, you're NOT A REAL LEFTIST. SHAMPOO IS BOURGEOIS."
I think American culture is so fixated on overcoming that seeing someone overcome less stuff just pisses people off. I think it is a bit of a problem that anyone who isn't immediately an oppressed group isn't taken seriously by many organisations. As shitty as it is for me to say this, I think people who are in comfortable positions should know how others are treated, and someone has to teach them.
Agreed, but much of the "criteria" gets silly sometimes. Like, I've heard a comrade (from the Bay) make a statement along the lines of: "You're not radical unless you came from a single-parent family or had an unstable childhood," which, by that logic, would mean the majority of activists aren't "really" radical, since most of the leftists I know actually had fairly stable childhoods.
I've also seen leftists pressure other leftists to drop out of college, for instance.
I live in Kentucky, I really wish we had a good socialist group here but I imagine I'd be kicked out because I didn't qualify for half-off school lunches.
That's retarded and completely disconnected from the history of worker's movement. The sobriety movement in scandinavia was intimately tied with the worker's movement entirely from the motivation "If we're going to be strong enough to take power in society we need to fix ourselves first". Romanticizing broken homes like that serves the opposite purpose.
Planning ahead is larping
why is ok for trannies to own guns but spergs cannot? this question mostly stumps low level socdems and libs but what do you think?
Simple: all trannies are spergs, so they can't own guns by proxy.
My take is that the Russian Revolution just popularized the vanguard format, but if anyone knows about it increasing efficiency it would cool if you could give a statistic or any other evidence
this statement makes no sense. spergs tend to have high T levels, which would never make them even close to passing.
I feel like you're just softballing the jokes in for me here.
ethical discussion around a hard question is LARP
I've seen big brained reddit tier anarchists scream MUH TERF any time I doubt anything about trans people, is this just an anarchist thing?
Nah its just a general left-liberal idealist tendancy in western leftism that to "know" or "believe" is the most important part of politics, so regardless of whether youre respectful to people in general if you dont have their exact opinion about a certain identity they take that as violence against the people categorized within in.
Why do you care about trans people enough to get called out for it?
According to Marx, it is.
Trans people regularly say shit like if you don't vote for the Dems you're actually enabling transphobia via the GOP so it's pretty much impossible not to come into conflict with their unending emotional blackmail.
fuck left unity
embrace class unity
talk to anyone regardless of their ideology
organize with anyone regardless of their ideology
what matters is ACTION
Yeah, you really shouldn't need to pass a lifestyle purity litmus test in order to be a good leftist.
Romanticizing broken homes like that serves the opposite purpose.
The logic behind it is, you need to have "suffered" or have a state of mind divorced from what capitalist society sees as "normal" in order to be truly radical. Like, if you've been relatively comfortable it's assumed you'll be too willing to sell out, than if you were constantly troubled.
I agree though, leftists should be promoting stronger families (or stronger communities at least). People who come from shitty family situations often times end up focusing so much on their own shitty situation that they have no energy to focus on issues which affect others.
Expect the best, plan for the worst.
No it isn't you fucking idiot.
thinking left unity is possible
Whenever radicalism becomes the dominant force in a country, state affairs invariably devolve into Machiavellian backstabbing between people who think their arbitrary views are the only true Marxist dialectic. Communism is basically the Islam of politics, for better or for worse.
It would be great, of course, but too many leftists think that believing in an ideology rooted in historical materialism makes them infallible.
t. childish "leftcom" who thinks actively working for revolution is stupid
Real talk. A Fascist like person (Cromwell, Napoleon ,Stalin, Saddam, Assad) always takes power after a Revolution.
Unless any of you can find a way to stop that it will just repeat again.
The Founding Fathers of the USA wanted there to be Revolutions all the time to stop it because they knew it was gonna happen but people allowed it and the USA passed the point of tryanny a long time ago.
Yeah im sure they would have been fine with slaves rising up against the most explicit form of tyranny in existence, that's why they called the Haitian Revolution "a republic of cannibals" and helped Europe undermine them.
inb4 user gets gulaged back to Reddit
Wew lad. Hawt t8kes. Especially for trips m8.
yeah but wh*te people having dred locs is cultural appropriation. can't have it both ways.
Against this, there were anti-slavery advocates in northern cities who believed that consistency with the principles of the American Revolution — life, liberty and equality for all — demanded that the US support the Haitian people.
Federalist newspaper Columbian Centinel compared the Haitian revolution and the struggle for independence from a European power, with the Americans' own revolution for independence.
There was support, and real talk the whole thing went to shit becoming a Literal Empire. Which again is similar to what I said, there's always some Authoritarian that takes power after a Revolution. Unless you support State Capitalism you would be against it.
Being Critical is not supporting the USA and CIA.
declare Assad and Stalin fascists
I was just being critical :3c
Yeah here's the thing. A lot of people, aka normies, only want shit to work and if shit doesn't work they will revolt. When shit works they will defend whatever happens. So a lot of people will be happy with a ☭TANKIE☭ thing if shit is desperate. But the people who aren't normies, aka Revolutionaries, will find issue with it becoming Authoritarian.
That's the thing that really separates the Left. You need to find a way to deal with that. Like do you support the Authoritarian side, the Revolutionary side, or find somewhere inbetween.
Wanted to add: I think the paradox is, it's usually comrades who come from stable families or middle class backgrounds who tend to stay radical the longest, because their radicalism is influenced by actual logic and interest in the human condition, rather than unfettered anger towards the system for screwing them over. Usually, the radicals who end up as liberals after 10-15 years are the ones who come from shitty backgrounds since they become attracted to leftism due to emotion only, and after a while they get to a point where they'll take any crumbs they can get which the existing system will give them. This is one reason why a lot of black radicals from the 70s ended up embracing liberalism, probably the same with feminists and unions too.
fascism is when you're authoritarian, and the more authoritarian you are, the more fascist it is
The us is a sea of post-truth illiteracy, with anyone from center-right liberals to marxists being called "the left". This is of course a conscious attempt by the bourgeoisie political parties, since misinformation and confusion is their bread and butter. Similar attempts are made in Europe too, but the leftists here don't fall within that category. I'm greek, and while in my country there is a good chunk of people that think SYRIZA/PASOK are what the left is, the actual people within leftists organizations (be it the communist party, some trot splitter party with 100 people or people belonging to an anarchist collective) have clearly defined lines where they stand. In the US, even so called "leftists" don't know these lines, apart from some rare exceptions (usually MLs). If you read theory however, the differences between post-modernist US leftism and anti-capitalist struggle becomes pretty much apparent, especially when you learn to study things dialectically and take into consideration the historicity of these movements and their ideas.
remember when makhno led that all voluntary and completely non-conscripted army to fight for the only territory that anarchists had control over in history? ye me neither.
I've never read a polsci book in my life starter pack
If you're talking about the Bay, then yeah there are reasons why activists would be suspicious of middle class suburban white kids, because the whole area is suffering from gentrification so naturally they view any white middle class people as potential gentrifiers. It sucks but that's the reality. Boston is already gentrified to hell so it's obvious the activists there wouldn't care about race/class background too much. Plus Boston activism from what I know is pretty much centered around anti-war and union shit since New England is New England.
If someone is a problem they should be removed, problem solved. Removal can mean whatever you want it to mean.
Glad to see my post screencapped and used against such a retarded non-argument.
I still don't get how that's related to a purity test. When I lived in Oakland comrades told me (white guy) I had to learn Spanish ASAP and pretty much adopt the "culture of the oppressed." There was one woman whom I'm almost certain was white yet passed as Latina due to being super-tan (pretty sure she was Jewish or southern European) who was nasty as hell to me and the two other white guys, told us we weren't welcome here unless we renounced whiteness or some shit. I only lived in the Bay for two and a half years so I can't say much else except for the fact that everyone there is super oversocialized.