Do 'intersectional' leftists consider the bourgeoisie as a stratified group the same as they consider their dialectic opposite, the working class?
If so, what is the analysis on the intersections of race/creed/religion of the capitalist class? Is there a difference as to how one should consider & combat, say, 'black capitalism' vs the vanilla variety?
If not, how the fuck do their heads not explode with this dissonance?
Why does this seem like low effort, one-sided COINTELPRO shit to me?
“Intersectionality” regards capitalism and class society to be an abstract “form of oppression” rather than a socio-economic structure. It’s a thoroughly idealist philosophy that only serves to obscure the actual living functions and processes of our society. If it isn’t a COINTELPRO project, it serves the same function.
Be wary of any “The Secret but for Leftists” ideology that seeks to replace actual socio-economic and historical analysis and theory with vague abstractions and calls to seek a “revolutionary” lifestyle.
Cameron Morales
Intersectionality has some usefulness in epidemiological studies. Which is important for medicine and healthcare. But creating political policy under capitalism using intersectionality to make sure their are more minority CEO's is prole-gay-female-nigger-muslim-retarded.
tbh being anti-feminists and anti-anti-racist at the time when segregation and misogyny was institutioned was not very nice.
Joseph Ramirez
I mean neither women nor blacks were not allowed to be proletariat at the time
Liam Perry
...
Christopher Morales
It's not really a strawman. No one has refuted Zizek's central point that when you talk about class at all you become a "class reductionist"
And I've yet to see a convincing counter-critique of Adolph Reed's work on identity politics as Neo-liberalism. He also savagely calls out the identitarian politics of the non-white segments of the bourgeoisie as race-reductionist.
Charles Martinez
Wasn't imposed until after the collapse of Reconstruction in the late 1870s. The US was actually experimenting with racial equality and extremely moderate social democracy around the time that Marx expelled Woodhull who was bourgeois as fuck, literally the first generation of vampiric female stock-brokers
In many places, Jim Crow didn't even take hold until the 1890s/1900s.
Fundamentally untrue, working women have always been part of the proletariat as Marx and Engels recognized early on. Only bourgeois and aristocratic women were ever exempt from having to work for an employer for large portions of their lives.
After slavery, blacks transitioned into proletarians by and large. There has never been a period post-Civil War were blacks have not been an essential part of the American proletariat.
I'm sorry that it's hard for Zizek and his crypto liberal followers to understand that some proles are objectively oppressed by the state way more than others. There's a long history of genocide and slavery that continues into today to back it up, and it manifests itself in both base and superstructure. Lol, this is just Amerimutt honkies replaying their reactionary stance to the Civil Rights movement. Racism hasn't ended, and ending it won't hurt white people. And it will help revolution because then there would be no comparative advantage to upholding things like white supremacy. LMAO, how is recognizing that black people get shot by cops way more "race reductionist". Good god you sound like some gamergater with this whiny bullshit.
Yeah, I do. I think defending hyper exploitation like chattle slavery in the name of profits might….just might be coming from someone with fascist sympathies. Ib4 fascism doesn't require racism.
lol
Adrian Johnson
let's not whitewash american history.
Brody Cruz
also, let's not whitewash the history of humanity
Nolan Fisher
The real historical revisionism is what idpol influenced post-modernists do. None of what I’ve written is incorrect and leftists should uphold reconstruction as a positive progressive period and model.
There’s also a great danger in seeing history through a glass darkly as it teaches people to spurn revolutionary accomplishments and to see history through a very whiggish perspective.
William Lee
What the fuck are you even talking about Reed is black ffs. Your post shows no awareness of the material in question.
Jeremiah Lopez
Yes it is, America was not experimenting with racial equality. Lol, we don't even have racial equality now. And whenever niggers get anything approaching parity to white people white supremacists will step in and crush it if the state doesn't. Pic related it's wall street.
I'm talking about you Whatever Reed said, you were citing him in to take down your strawman of intersectionality. Racism has and continues to have material roots in state oppression. Fashies like you want to constantly try to frame it as idealism so white people don't have to feel bad about the fact that their fellow proles continue to wallow in proverty.
Now, I know you’re just a Zig Forumstard LARPing. Have fun
Justin Gutierrez
Bones okay Makato?
Luis Taylor
...
Bentley Wilson
Shut up, porky, and go back to reddit. There you can everybody call "fascist"
Nathan Long
Or maybe you do and you’re just an idealist. Which is it?
Because there’s nothing in “intersectionality” which isn’t already covered by dialectics. Intersectionality is dialectical materialism for liberal idealists.
Class rarely gets mentioned, and if it does it's almost always the last thing on the list and only considered as a measure of wealth/income and not relation to the production process. Damn, there's actually a really good question in here. "Black capitalism" and the like is a distinct problem because it's pulling certain groups "into the fold" of "proper" society and hoping this will bribe those people into dropping radical tendencies. For an historical example look at women entering the workplace. This kind of shit could be generalized as "woke capitalism" IMO and I think there really does need to be more discourse on how to counteract it in the hearts and minds of the people it's trying to court. I'm bi and I cringe whenever I see somebody buy an LGBT flag or praise a corporation for making a show of gay inclusivity (not least of which is because the "LGBT Community" is pretty hostile to bisexuals, asexuals, and various others) it makes me cringe and tbh I'm at a loss for what to do about it. A lot of these people (some I know personally) are coming from a place where they really have been alienated based on these identities and they definitely need some kind of social/emotional support. It's kind of like talking to someone who's in an abusive relationship I guess. No matter how obvious it is or how clearly you can explain it or how much you try to give them what they need to break away, there's a tendency to justify and cling to an abuser.
Oh, yeah. They think class = money. They're generally not materialists so they're lightyears away from understanding relations of production… I guess I went off on a tangent. COINTELPRO or not, it's low effort V*rtue S*gnaling that people do for clout online in order to stay in the social media game which is driven by likes and will quickly bury you via algorithm if you don't stay active.
Justin Gonzalez
This is fundamentally the problem: you project your own care about wanting others to "feel bad," which has nothing to do with Marxist analysis. There's no hint of what happens historically beyond idealist handwringing over abstractions.
I've seen people disagree with Reed, but reactionary?
"A specific form of state oppression has material roots in state oppression." What a clever way to say nothing. Because "material roots" is in there, you can even pretend that what you're saying is "Marxist."
are we being raided by reddit??? read a book and get the fuck out.
Dominic Phillips
Are you high?
Tyler Gray
idpol is a hitlerite ideology that tacitly accepts and reinforces the idea that discrete populations are inherently different based on superficial and or spooky bullshit
even aside from that watching people bicker over identity is nauseating. most of the queer political discourse I encounter seems to be centered around who gets to be included in what stupid club or another, and who is the most privileged. it's fucking retarded and absolutely reactionary
Charles Richardson
That pic pretty much sums all of this up. Idpoltards are either not proletariat in the first place or are proletariat that have been deluded into believing capitalism is not the root cause of their oppression, and have therefore become straight up liberals focused on making capitalism more comfortable rather than bringing and end to it altogether. They are trying to "fix" something that we are trying to fundamentally demolish and have become total pawns of the bourgeoisie.
Joshua Reed
are we being raided by insane asylum escapee's? Read a book and get the fuck out.
sick burn! look here little bitch, nobody gives a shit on classifying which proles have it worse than others in the American Dystopia. As the world economy turns to shit, global warming dries up lakes and crops, intense hurricanes rape cities, and proles around the world die at the hands of the rich to earn their daily meal, you are jerking off with your reddit buddies over which race is the most affected and how hurricanes are racist (why aren't any hurricanes named Shaniqua???). I already have the first verse for your slam poetry: We👏🏻 need👏🏼 more👏🏽 dead👏🏾 white👏🏿 proles👏🏻. Give yourself the chance to consider that you might be wrong about what you believe. There are accessible resources available, just ask.
Nathan Martinez
lol crypto Zig Forumsyp triggered by his own dismissive argument tactics. Also inequality is a huge driver of climate change. Implicitly approving of Idpol like white supremacy like you'd like, leaves proles divided and unable to address larger issues.
James Walker
Fuck it. All porkies should be fried, all proles should be freed. I do not care if they're trans, gay, muslim, black, whatever. :)
Nathan Davis
I dont agree with that other guy about it being fascism because it wasn't, but come on.
Tyler Morris
kek
Hello reddit.
Sebastian Cook
which is exactly my point, you goddamn short sighted idiot.
Parker Kelly
...
Ryder Flores
I wasn't the other poster, is this the new idealist trick? Just call everyone mad and shit your pants with no arguments?
Liam Johnson
Imagine having autism this bad
Evan Lopez
Yes then.
Lucas Jenkins
People say Trump is an agent of Putin and only does his bidding.
It was, normally I'd keep it up for a few more posts but I don't want the influx of idiots thinking they're in good company.
Xavier Jenkins
Yeah at this point the institutional power wielded by racists is quite small, and so Black bourgeoisie are essentially unaffected except in the ways that they are made to FEEL bad. Aside from mean words, no one can hurt them anymore. Racists formed a movement based on the idea that Obama was born in Kenya, and yet they still couldn't unseat him from power. Their power has declined THAT much.
Which is EXACTLY why the far right is embracing criticisms of capitalism, and why they've become more blatant and open about their beliefs. They can no longer use capitalism to passively enforce white supremacy, and so now capitalism must be challenged to protect whatever remains of their white privilege. And in turn, we're going to see more and more working class whites move to the right and embrace seemingly anti-capitalist reaction, because they are of the people and are actually speaking out against oppressors.
Connor Rodriguez
Funny how this only seems to be playing out in Tardtown, USA.
Landon Bell
the problem with intersectionality is that when they see a wealthy straight white male they think the "straight white male" part is even remotely in the same magnitude of importance as the "wealthy" part.
Matthew Reed
yeah, let's totally not question capitalism, that's for fascists. Also, we shouldn't deny racism's role on black people's oppression, we should instead make t-shirts and hand out fliers to end racism. black people would be able to roam the ghetto without fear of violence if it wasn't for that pesky racism!
Ryder Howard
what's the point of classifying levels of oppression? we already have those, they're called "social classes" and the lower you go, the more shit it gets, regardless of color, but it's shit from top to bottom, for the most part. do you want more rich black people? I don't get it..
Henry Barnes
Liberals can't question capitalism, it's the foundation of their ideology. They can only work around the edges. This means that fascists are able to beat the shit out of them on issues created BY capitalism, and they're basically helpless to stop them. They can just scream "RACIST" and cower. They're literally being flanked from the left by the far right. It's kind of amazing, really.
Oliver Rogers
Intersectionality theory comes from America and should therefore be discarded.
Robert Stewart
This is the inevitable future. Can't wait to see AOC defend drone strikes because a woke Latinx is twerking as the Afghan wedding gets bombed
That's how they say it works then they spend all their time wrecking.
Jose Robinson
Which is fucking untrue. Those "intersectionalists" literally say that the revolution is for LGBTQIA+/disabled/"non-neurotypical"/etc. "folx" and that the best "white" men can hope is to be tentative "allies". Basically the non-"white" non-"cishet males" are going to be leading the revolution, "white" men, in their ideal scenario, have to beg and grovel to be accepted, while acceptance to those who aren't "white cishet men" is open and they're always given the benefit of a doubt.
t. ancom who doesn't associate with online "ancom" groups
Most people in this thread shitting on ancoms get their idea of what anarcho-communists are like from "leftbook" and twitter radlibs. They only use the red and black flag because that is kind of the "default" anarchist flag. They probably don't want to use the black one because then they couldn't lay claim to Marx or libertarian socialist achievements, like one big US military base in Syria. So the red and black is necessary for their LARP to continue.
Most ancoms that I know and know of spend time organising squats, protesting, feeding people, creating solidarity networks to help the homeless or those who need it, etc. What ancoms that I know don't do is hang out on Facebook, sharing memes and "purging" users to ensure a rainbow purity of their "safe space" (on a corporate website, imagine!)
Austin Diaz
More like it implores people to find every point of difference they can and quibble over every person's exact position in the oppression hierarchy. That's considered a necessary condition for an "inclusive" or whatever organization, which means nothing can ever get done because litigating every sort of oppression will literally take forever because you can always chop people up into finer categories and find more minute ways people are mean to each other. Cutting the Gordian Knot is taking this mentality to its logical conclusion and just treating each person as an individual with their own unique situation. As the one decent quote from Ayn Rand goes: "The Smallest Minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." Just, you know, do an oppositional reading so it's not about bourgeois property rights. I've got another bone to pick with this specific bit though. The most "common struggles" are those of the proletariat, which absolutely do not require people to be recognized as every identity they comprise. It only requires the recognition of someone being in the economic role of a worker.
Being considerate isn't what makes a revolution. If your organization is nothing more than a hug box it's not going to accomplish anything politically. Support groups are fine but people shouldn't pretend they're a form of radicalism.
"The Working Class" is not a coalition, but a coherent group unto itself. The only reason you'd need to build "broad coalitions" is if you can only conceive of your fellow workers as somehow essentially different from you, not having "common struggles" that can unite you for a political purpose. In this regard, intersectionality is precisely and exactly backward from what we should be pursuing and these tweets are an object lesson in how red liberals fundamentally don't understand class struggle. Notice how nowhere here does he provide justification for why this ideological framework would be useful, although he does repeatedly insist it is so.
I am glad to hear, that there are ancoms like you.
But this intersectional cancer is not only problem of ancoms, but ALL of the leftist groups. Even the "tankies".
Matthew Lewis
this is what i used to believe as well, but after having spoken to a couple extremely radical idpols they seemingly are aware of precisely this as the cause of their issues. at least they explained to me, that because of their position of experienced oppression that exceeds that of your average white (in my case) middle european man, they have chosen this as their field of fight on their way to end capitalism, as their perceived oppressors live off the exploitation of their special group (gender, race, gay etc.) i might not agree with many idpols, as their INTERSECTIONALITY ABOVE ALL must inevitably lead to what happened to antideutsche going full neo liberal and/or right wing, i do however think, that their ideas tend to be cogwheels in a bigger gear mechanism of shit that we call society
Dylan Clark
Dude make the Rosa-killing SPD look like the IWW with his hunger for power and treatment of the local Left. If anything the latest presidency was shit on by all races despite 100% idpol driven.
Although to be fair Singapore is probably the most egalitarian country in SEA.
t.singaporean
Austin Watson
Class isnot one of the intersections its THE intersection.
In practice idpolers just use intersectionality as a way to coddle their own little pet oppressions that only apply to vanishingly small segments of the working class. It's less coalition-building than pathological atomisation
Camden Adams
Oh, I agree, I'm not one of those lolbertarian autists that think he was the greatest statesman ever, just that he made an extremely salient point. AOC is a good example of this, shifting constantly between arguing for economic reform and complaining about lack of POC representation in the institutions of power.
Evan Ward
He doesn't precisely coz a huge chunk of Singapore's history proves otherwise. He is just fulfilling his own prophecy.
