Today friends, we will try to understand each others positions. Write in this thread question you have for other leftist.
I start
Why the fuck are there Juche fags? I don't get it. It's probably the worst kind of socialism I have ever seen. Name me one positive thing about it
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Anarchists can't do away with the state.
Why do people thing supporting one capitalist imperialist power over the other will do anything?
is anyone here not depressed
Marxism and Anarchism are functionally the same
iww.org
iww.org
There diffrent means to the same end.
I've had periods (couple months at a time) where I've been mildly depressed but overall I feel pretty great. AMA.
First question: why are you such a fucking pussy ass nigga
comes naturally
Same here, I have undiagnosed SAD disorder that appears in December and goes away in February. I feel relatively fine the rest of the year.
My question: Should my topic of choice for my final oral exam in French be communism or my love for Stalin and Lenin?
Define a "state"
A vanguard forms with technocracy anyways if we're being honest
It still exists
Juche relies on a military and Intelligentsia first supply system, not because they see it as ideal, but rather as it's the only way to resist capitalism in a rocky barren place like Korea
Housing for all, education for all, jobs for all. Still standing despite American invasion and decades of economic warfare waged against it by the entire world.
My question is, why does anybody on the left still believe bourgeoisie propaganda about the USSR, DPRK, PRC and all other former and currently existing socialist states?
...
Why would anyone ever want agrarian socialism
To get rich js glorious.
"Brah, just like, live in harmony with those raccoons"
Here is another question. Why is every single trot a retard?
Actually, another question, why don't you refute his argument?
Because once you run out of party to split from, the only thing left is to split from your brain
Five year plans are the fastest way to raise productive forces. Markets are inefficient. Prove me wrong.
Here is another question, next time you call trots retarted, show this board something to prove it.
Permanent revolution leads to permanent brain damage
Back to standing in a breadline, ultraleftist.
what is Anarchist solution to ecological crisis and other problems that may require mass coordinated effort like the fucking revolution itself ?
Also what is Anarchist's take on Cockshott?
Nobody needs to provide specific examples of trots being retarded. Open literally any thread on this board, and you will find all the evidence you would need.
How would they get foreign direct investment that way though? The Chinese are developing their economy and raising living standards at a rate never seen before in history. I trust their judgement more than some fucking trot on the internet.
You could argue their strategy for development has opened a Pandora's box by allowing a strong capitalist class to develop to the detriment of Chinese socialism, but if the goal is simply defined as growing the economy and lifting people out of poverty, what the Chinese are doing is clearly working.
China still has five-year plans tho
en.m.wikipedia.org
They're for the most part "leftists" who refuse to let go of western anti-communist propaganda.
By this logic why even be a socialist? Clearly you care more about your retarded productive forces and this stupid "growth" shit rightwingers love to spout when they talk about how great capitalism is.
Dengoids are the slimiest cocksuckers.
I mean, 70s south Korea outperformed DPRK in terms of GDP yes there existed period in time where Juchebol hold higher living standards than retarded southern portion of peninsula thanks to state driven industrialization effort and whatnot but only time will tell the true colour of Xigang
How do non vegan/vegetarian leftists justify the horrific harms to themselves? Honest question.
Anarchists see mass coordination as a thing that kind of happens naturally. Kind of ironic, especially when you think about the intelligentsia leading, but reject any natural centralization
Not eating a cut of beef that has already been raised and culled doesn;t change CO2 output. Actually think about it for a second.
Yawn.
Diamat.
Genius. Buying a bale of cotton a slave picked is totally ethical too, I mean, I didn't ask his master to make him do it!
Fun fact: the vast majority of them did. You know what broke the south's back? Manchester not scabbing on the Union during the civil war at a factory level. You wanna change the word? Start with the sellers and producers, not the buyers.
I'm not a Dengoid, I just like to pretend to be one to provoke people. If I have to answer this question seriously I would say because you can't have socialism without having good productive forces. But we all know China has reached the stage to have true socialism, It's just that there is conflict with the new capitalist class. From what I've read Xi is a boomer commie so there is a slim chance we might see true Chinese socialism in our life.
I agree, I suppose, if we're talking about a product that is basically essential to life under capitalism, but plenty of people don't eat meat and survive just fine, in fact they're usually healthier (on average), you're not some free agent that doesn't affect the world. You wanna fight the producers and not the buyers? Fine, then at the very least, you stop buying, and help me bomb the slaughterhouse.
Based fellow Vega-socialist comrade.
This is free market individualism at its height: if I don't go to Lidl to get lamb lidl aren't gonna change shit. Also meat is pretty essential compared to most other foods sold today, like there is a reason most veggies I known are small, slender women.
I agree it's hardly a 100% solution but if less people ate meat there would be less produced, you wanna tear down the system? Fine, but don't piss and moan in the meantime that you're asked to do something yourself which costs you nothing.
dang I need to make a bingo card for this shit.
You know what else to put on your bingo cards? That even in regions of the world where vegetarianism is common (like South Asia) they still feed it to children, young men, and those in manual labour.
It costs me my protein intake, which is higher than an average person due to mass and metabolism.
Not him but I hate the whole "you don't eat meat means you are some tiny skelleton". I'm 188cm and weight 80kg, and I have been a vegetarian for 4 years.
Under communism, there will be meat for all. Meat tastes good, and it helps me get to high amounts of protein.
If you are a vegi/vegan, you are probably also knee-deep in to liberal bullshit and retarded hippie spiritualism.
Plenty of ways to get protein without meat though. You can't act like you don't know that.
You could argue that even now much of SE Asia is not developed enough to make a no-meat diet feasible for the local people but you certainly can't believe that in the West.
Ultimately humans are just intelligent animals, if Marxism is the ultimate conclusion of liberal thought that humans deserve rights, Environmentalism is just the logical conclusion of Marxism and the acknowledgement that beings deserve respect and rights based on their intelligence. It's got nothing to do with spirituality, in fact it's the opposite, you believe that men have some inbuilt trait that entitles them to dominate the natural world and be above it.
Mass coordination is not the exclusive territory of Marxists
This is an issue that has always bothered me, how would an anarchist society ever try to do something as complicated as say build a spacecraft? All the components that need to be precisely perfect and follow the design exactly, but there's no kind of organisation that is able to enforce compliance or even give any kind of reward for compliance.
Autists like to argue ML's are to "authoritarian", while Anarchists suck up to "decentralization". Both ignore how people would listen to people most qualified (Anarchists even voluntarily gave Makhno military control because he knew what he was doing)
You can get protein, but you can't necessarily get enough protein. Different people have different dietary requirements due to their body mass, their build, their metabolism, and their caloric expenditure. I know you can get protein (I have veggie mates, some of which are South Asian) but can you get enough with my bodytype? Doubtful.
Still love some falafel tho.
I don't see why we can't just agree on a happy middle ground where the government has a large amount of control but workplaces are semi-democratic (they can't just decide not to produce anything of course) and workers can unionise and strike if they think they're being treated unfairly. Everyone knows some degree on central control is necessary, but also some degree of personal freedom and ability to resist unfair authority.
If you unironicaly believe this why are you a socialist?
The USSR had a NEP for Five Years than they did central planing and when from a feudal backwater to nearly surpassing the West in a few decades.
No were communists who reject anti-“Imperialism” for the hypocrisy it is. I don’t support the NATO world order, however at the same time if they are fighting other capitalists, I won’t blindly support their opponents.
Their put on the back burner in favor of private Industry.
Most land being used for pasture is of low fertility and often barren, thus it can’t grow crops.
have no problems with them
their capitalist, so of course I don’t support them. They have the productive forces for socialism. They had them in 2005. Yet they didn’t implement it because their parliament if controlled by billionaires.
Non-human animals don’t have intelligence
Yes, this trait is called intelligence
This isn’t the problem with M-Ls. The problem with them is that they concede to neolib talking points on stuff like “markets are efficient” when they aren’t. Or they are motivated solely by nostalgia, or hatred for America, or some spooky BS, rather than for an end to wage slavery.
Workers elect their bosses, And elect people to a council of regional management of said Industry. Who elect people to a national council of management of said Industry. Who elect the people at a “national economic council.” Their is also direct democracy in the workplace.
Pick one chum and only one
granted, but when you strike you don't get paid, same would apply here.
Alright, I've found what I can agree with the trots on.
This is exactly why the workers opposition was abolished. It’s maybe the primary contradiction in state socialism that is not discussed nearly enough. Eventually the organs of working class power come into contradiction with the state and this is inevitable to any materialist. This is the problem we need to be solving
Same way a state does. You have some people who work at a place that specializes in space. They engineer a spacecraft or a few and pick what works best. Then they can pitch the idea(s) publicly and you can work out how many resources to allocate through whatever your decision making process is. Whether people individually fund out of their own resources, or you have some voluntary tax system that pools resources, you can do that without authoritarian enforcement.
Sure there is. That's part of the same organization that runs the space program. If there's a catastrophe, people are going to be much less willing to give them resources for it. That's the incentive. And doubtlessly some interested people will be creating some kind of watchdog organization for things like that.
You should have said language, there's plenty of smart animals, likely to feel pain the same way we do.
smh, catalonia being authoritarian by forcefully collectivizing
Can I get a (you) on this post?
Pain has fuck all to do with intelligence. We have pain receptors and so do most of the organisms we think of as animals.
not smart enough to build Industry and invent complex stuff
Why would this mean anything?
The working class revolting against the capitalist class is the opposite of authoritarian. Catalonia failed to live up to their anarchist ideals, just like the USSR failed to live up to Lenin's ideals. The higher you set your sights, the less bad shit will be when you compromise a similar amount.
ok
When people refer to coercive authority or intellectual authority they are talking about different things. Makhno being put in charge for being competent could only happen because the power authority rested with the people who delegated responsibility to him. If he were authoritarian, he would have taken the power himself regardless of what the people thought about it. Totally fucking different things, and equivocating like this is befits a liberal.
blink twice if you are a ☭TANKIE☭ and you know that Grover Furr is full of shit, I promise I won't mention it to anyone
young Rosa is cute
Oh ok. Yeah I did sound a bit triggered there, I just find dengists to be so retarded. I would also go as far as to say that most countries in the world (except african and some asian countries) already have well developed productive forces for socialism.
Then the working class heavily militarizing to fight capitalism should be anti authoritarian as well then, should it not?
No shit, but you seem to forget that Stalin was elected by the people.
Many organizations have been able to benefit the masses in a top down military coup and let the people have a voice, now how is this authoritarian?
They can feel pain, except not the dread of not knowing what happens when you die, and that's the only really terrible thing about death, so it shouldn't count once deaths painless.
Is central planning essential to socialism?
Also I'm planning a webcam masturbation session on skype, would anyone like to join me?
I genuinely want to give Anarchism benefit of doubt but I am yet to find any organization that is not pseudo-personality cult or downright useless armchair libcom with aesthetics.
I am happy to be corrected if there is any piece of history to enlighten me
No, but it's imo one of the most effective ways at achieving socialism.
There hasn't been a single Anarchist insurrection that wasn't a failure.
Yes, the 1990s was the point where the USSR SWITCHED to markets, liberalizing it's economy even more than China's. China's state-owned economy is doing better post-1990s than Russia's entirely capitalist economy. Your picture undermines your point.
Anarchists are still autistic
Did you even think what's in greentext through tbh
Why do people support hezbollah?
Lmao this reminded me of the ZOG Occupied Government filter
In Lebanon? Historical reasons, "They won the war" stuff.
Because they're anti-imperialist and are fine with communists and have only drifted further left in recent years?
Not ☭TANKIE☭, far from it. But Grover Furr is right 60% of the time. The only thing he does wrong is when he says something retarted like “America is evil” or some other dumb bullshit. His historiography is pretty cool.
Their is Decentrlaized Planning. But for the most part Socialism is Central Planing combined with Workplace Democracy and Political Direct Democracy.
Hezbollah are faggots and should be purged, but I probably wouldn’t have that thought on them if my dad wasn’t a Lebanese Christian Immigrant.
I’d like to add on it doesn’t matter if stuff like the Holomdore or Katyn massacre is real or not. It only matter is people think it is real. After all history only exists in the minds of men.
Good job, Trot, this sounds like a fool-proof strategy that will bring support to socialism!
I'm not going to pick out every reply on the anarchist questions but "authoritarianism" is literally a liberal meme designed to make people stop thinking about how things run. Any functioning anarchist society will still retain significant authority in organization. I'll explain more when I'm off my phone, but we honestly need to bring the anarcho authoritarian flag back because its the only non-meme anarchy.
Capitalists do historical revisionism all the time. The US has erased the memory of it’s labor movement from it’s citizen’s mind’s. China has censored information to Tiananmen square. If everyone around you is poring gasoline on a fire, what’s the harm in through a few twigs on it?
How is this the worst form again?
The better question is why there are so many retards who uphold Cuba as a socialist workers paradise while shitting on literally every other previous and currently existing socialist state like the DPRK, despite Cuba itself refuting the propaganda against them and upholding them as socialist.
Because they are an anti-imperialist force defending Lebanon from the Zionist colonialists and are also allied to Lebanese communists. They have only drifted further to the left.
electronicintifada.net
Fucking based
There are plenty of Christians who support them, like those in the SSNP.
I'm bipolar so I get extremely depressed for a while, then I'm euthymic for a while, then I get really agitated and somewhat euphoric(depending) and do some really stupid shit. Then I crash back to depression.
Animal agriculture is literally incredibly inefficient. Not even taking morality into account, the amount of food it takes to raise an animal to the age and weight where it is to be slaughtered is significantly more than the food it produces.
Only the way we do it now, where we use the best farmland to grow feed corn to feed to cattle. This is a stupid and inefficient method.
If however, you graze cattle on marginal land that isn't suited for agriculture, it is not wasteful, but increases the amount of food available to a society. In addition, if every few years, you let a field go fallow, and graze cattle on it, and let them shit on it etc, then you actually replenish the soil, and make it more healthy. The shit from domesticated animals is also a good fertilizer. Livestock are an important part of ecologically sound, renewable farming practices. If you want to keep the soil in good shape, instead of depleting it like our current wasteful, monoculture agriculture, you are going to need animals.
Try LSD. Cured my depression permanently.
What is fertilizer
This is the way it has always been done. This idea that cattle magically eat random shit in the paddock is a fantasy in the minds of city-slickers.
No, animals shit only recycles a bit of P and K already in the soil. It can't add P and K to the soil. You need to mine P and K to bring up the levels of P and K in the soil.
Something you can just dump onto barren fields forever with zero consequences.
In any case.
Once we start examining most of the strongest anarchist underpinnings of horizontalism, decentralization, democracy (usually), and such, people like to imagine that anarchism is against "authoritarianism". In reality, none of these principles end up in conflict with quite strict laws that would by any liberal standard be considered "authoritarian", we could easily imagine the democratic vote in a popular assembly for the construction of decentralized secret polices formed for the sake of hunting down bourgies and putting them to death. We can also continue in this manner to describe how our own secret police includes its own horizontal structure and so on while maintaining necessary accountability so that they are held to their primary task.
To the radical liberal this sounds like it might be against "anarchism" and yet no person interested in the serious material liberation of the working class can deny the necessity of the working class to undertake measures by which they can secure their own liberation.
The sooner people stop being fucking Chomskyite radlibs the better.
you cant have democratically accountable secrets
These fucking idealists discussing traits giving them rights.
Does a a gorilla have the right to exploit rodents because of its intelligence? How much intelligence until we have rights over all animals? Perhaps when we can build a factory to exploit them, but what of the hunter-gatherer humans who couldn't build factories, did they still have rights? Our own traits of intelligence give us the power to exploit animals at an exceptional level, not the right. We exploit them because it has benefits us productively to do so, however it is at the point now that it is inefficient to exploit some animals and yet we continue to do it because capitalism is inherently inefficient but profit driven.
When building an efficient and socialist society we will strip off any inefficiencies such as animal farming not because it's 'wrong' or we don't have the spooky 'rights' for it. But, because living efficiently and sustainably is what is most beneficial to high living standards and long-term survival.
I'm a vegan to demonstrate that it is possible in society, not because animals have inherent rights. Fuck off with your idealism.
Sustainable agriculture requires livestock you dumbass.
Efficiency also requires using marginal land that is unsuitable for crop raising, but is usable for raising livestock (like much of the american west is).
Also, unless you plan on reintroducing predators, like wolves, everywhere, we are going to need hunters to properly manage populations of animals like deer.