Is Praying to Saints Idolatry?

Because the Saint can help you? It's a simple concept why are you being obtuse about it?

So, you ARE praying the Father? Also, how can a saint help you better than God can?

If the Saints are alive, and under God's rule, are perfectly righteous, are commanded to pray for one another always, offer up prayers to God without ceasing, and are around us always as a cloud of witnesses, praying to them to ask them to pray for us is fine. Every single one of those things I said can be found in scripture, since you're so big on it, look up the references.

Because saints are more righteous than us.

Who mediates between earth and heaven besides Jesus? How does the saint hear your prayer? Is the saint all-seeing or all-knowing like God? That's the question at hand, not the concept of intercessory prayer.

They have the beatific vision, they can see all the God loves as God IS love, because they can see God. The only thing they can't see (from where they are) are the things known to God alone. Such as your inmost will, the Second Coming date, and so on.

I pray to the Father by asking a Saint to relay the message because the Saint is more righteous then me to the Father so that way the Father can help me.
It's very simple when you get down to it.

This is definitely the best answer so far.
However, it is written, when we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, his righteousness becomes our own. So how can a saint in heaven be more righteous than you? Is it only because they are in heaven?

Thanks for answering my question. I'm also reading newadvent.org/summa/5072.htm#article1 which is also attempting to answer my question.

It's because they are in Heaven. Are you in Heaven?

So, what are the scriptures that support this doctrine specifically?
Where in the Bible does someone pray to a saint?

I don't have the info on hand and I may be wrong, I do know what I said above is correct, but I don't have the proper documents to show it.

The entire Christian religion is idolatry!

How is that? If you think praying to saints IS idolatry, then you must admit, not every church does that.

Go back to /islam/

You will be pretty embarrassed when you meet me someday!

I'm not following.

This actually explains a lot of stuff from my experiences.

Back the original question:
Where does it say in the Bible we should pray to anyone but God. I'm getting mixed opionions; some say it is praying TO saints, some say it's praying the Father for the saints' help.
So I'll ask, where in the Bible does someone pray for the intercession of a saint?

The bible alone isn't the answer to it.

How about the Apostolic Fathers?

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You claim to know me, but fail to recognize me!

Probably, I don't have the documents ready for this discussion but I'm sure someone else in the thread can explain it better then me.

ill bite, I read either in isiah or in jeremiah, that people were praying to the queen of heaven and the host of heaven and it was idolatrous.
Draw your own conclusion. Why would you want a saint's help when you can get god's help.

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Surely you understand that we can only reference the Bible in this discussion? It is the only shared source between denominations. I don't want to make a discussion on which church branch has everything right.

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No, not really.

It was baking cakes and offerings to her that was idolatrous. God disapproves of offering sacrifices and worship to other spirits. He doesn't mind prayer to them if they're good spirits.

If I ask you why certain men are correct on this doctrine, you will say, "because they belong to the only true church." And if I then ask, "how do you know it's the true church?" you will repeat yourself.
The only truth we can both ascertain here is the Bible. I hope.

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Prayer is an offering.

What do protestants think the communion of saints means when they recite the apostles creed?

How many saints were in Corinth when Paul wrote to them? Perhaps "saint" is a more widely applicable term than some may think.

Semantics

Biblical semantics. Hebrews 13:15-16

Saints exist outside of time

So the saints Paul wrote to already existed out of time? Can you write letters to people who exist out of time?

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There were also old testament saints

Absolutely. Although I would say that they only existed out of time after they died and went to heaven. And people couldn't write letters to them afterwards.

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...

I don't think you understand what the implications of eternity are

I don't think you understand what the implications of not answering a question are.

If the question isn't right then why answer it?

you didnt reply to my other part, nit picking is a bad argument.

Here are some sufficiently right questions I think:
Are all who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ saints? Are the saints in Corinth that Paul writes to simply believers in Christ? or are they special super holy individuals that we should pray to or ask for their help?

No.

scripturecatholic.com/saints-and-intercessory-prayer/

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Have you never asked a friend to pray for you? It's a really common thing, Christians praying for each other and asking each other to pray for them. Asking a saint to pray for you is literally the same only they're in heaven and are as of such more holy than us

You mean this?
Because God's more likely to listen to someone holier than me.

Yes.
No where, to do so is a sin.

Consider also the following:
Does this fix anything? What does it accomplice to pray to the truly dead? Is there any legitimate means of insuring that any one man, outside of those clearly mentioned in scripture, is in heaven to receive your prayers?

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And you know that they're holier how?
"Judge not, lest ye be judged"
If you believe Jesus is Lord, then his righteousness is imputed onto you. No one is righteous on their own, "none are righteous, no, not one" and nobody who is in Christ is more righteous in God's eyes than another who is in Christ.
Can you disprove that scripturally?

Praying TO saints, yes.
Asking saints to pray FOR us. no.

If you can't tell the difference, you're a child.

Do you pray, saying "Father, please send saint X to help me." or do you skip praying to the Father?
You don't think it's strange to ask a spirit in heaven to help you before God?
If speaking to a heavenly spirit isn't praying, then what is praying?

What denomination are you?

You pray for a Saint for them to pray for you. It's simple logic here. I mean where are you being tripped up here.

You ask the Father for the saint to pray for you? If that's what you mean, why would God listen to an unrighteous person anyways (I'm hearing that saints are more righteous than you)? If you're skipping the Father entirely, then tell me, how is asking a heavenly spirit for help not praying to it?

Break up the word idolatry into its composite parts and look at the definitions
Is a saint an image of representation of a god? No. Are you worshipping them? No.
By the word, prayer to saints is not idolatry

You are praying to them. Is prayer not a form of offering, and therefore, worship?

Yes, it is a form of worship. As is kneeling and the like. Do not judge this through a cultural lenses of "this is old, this okay" but through whether in Christ's time and place would this be idolatry? The answer is yes.

I am Christian.

Only a few more years till scripture and doctrine is read like jews I see…

/thread

No no, I for the Saint, who then in turns prays for me to the Father. It's like a blockchain of prayers.

So, if I pray to Athena, but don't think she is a god, am I not committing idolatry?
What if I pray to my ancestors for their spirits to help me?

If God is all-knowing, he forever knows how unrighteous you are in the moment of your prayer to saint X. Therefore, how will saint X's prayer change God's opinion on your worthiness to receive God's blessing?

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Because the saint has more sway then you, friend.

So, what you're saying is that they can change God's opinion?
Is that how it works?

It's not really change, it's more like God knows in his heart that you love him but you can't reach him yourself or something.

I think this boils it down. It seems people think THEY can reach God, but this isn't true. It's God who reaches to us.

Can saints hear us if we pray to ourselves and don't vocalize them?
What happens if we pray to what we believe is a saint in heaven but he is actually in hell?
Serious questions I've always been too afraid to ask, because I fear I should have known the answers decades ago.

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Yes.
Yes.
Yes, we were taught specifically in what manner we should pray.
Yes.
Good luck finding THAT chapter & verse! Sound like you already get it, OP. Pray to the Father and don't worry about it too much: Romans 8:26
Also, for God's sake, take everything in this board with a huge grain of salt.

Paul, writing in Romans, says that it is wrong to pray to the Host of Heaven (Angels). So, if saints are even equal to Angels in heaven, you still should NOT pray to them.

Verse pls

Woops,verse I was thinking of was in Colossians. Anyways, Colossians, 2:18
Also, Romans 1:25 speaks of not worshiping any created thing.
Can you tell me why it is not worship to pray to a saint?

That speaks of worship not prayer.
This is just saying don't serve them more than God.

Is praying not worshiping? If I pray to Mars am I not technically worshiping him?
Is prayer not a form of offering?

How is mere communication worship? I do not worship someone by talking to them.

Is prayer just mere communication with someone?

And to think the veil was torn for this…

prayer has different forms.

Yes despite what the idolatrous cathi and orthrocucks are saying. Remember what Jesus said in John 14:6 “Jesus answered, ‘I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me”. Mary can’t save you nor go on your behalf towards God and neither can the dead saints as both of them didn’t die for your sins and are fallible and are not without sin. Plus it makes you susceptible to demonic suggestions as they can pretend to be them

Here is a summary of this thread:

If prots were not obstinate they wouldn't be prots.

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Ok listen up, prots.

Is it idolatry? Of course not!
Are the saints dead? No, man. They're alive in Christ!

Any questions?

I will fully admit, I've never even thought about asking people to pray for me, but I pray for others privately very often. Why do we ask for others to pray for us?

It’s because they would like biblical sources not taken out of context
For example, it is biblical truth that all who truly believe in Christ are saints.

Third post best post

Can you confirm the "living saints" actually are and not "dead, burning in hell"?

I had no idea you personally knew ancient Christians. Nor knew whether or not who is and isn't in hell….

An idolator never enjoys feeling scorned. It enflames their idolatry even more.

Seconding this; how can anyone prove if someone is in heaven or not?

Dude we got a whole thread pinned of people asking others to pray for them. Check that and you'll have your answer, bruh.

You're right, I didn't personally know the Blessed Virgin Mary. However, she prophesied that all generations would call her blessed. Also, the graces she obtained for me aside, the fact that petitions to her can be traced back all the way to the early Church leaves me no doubt that she lived a virtuous life and is in Heaven as the greatest saint who ever lived.

Let me get this straight, you are claiming that everyone is in hell until proven they are in Heaven, correct?

I'm going to cover for him and say no because I've read, re-read and re-re-read his message and there's no way to get "everyone is in hell until proven they are in Heaven" form it, in either a literal sense of a less literal sense where it just means we should act as if everyone was in hell even if they aren't.

Well if you imply we don't know if we are or not going to heaven, that implies and begs the question about the idea if anyone outside of Jesus (and Mary) did in fact go to Heaven.

Protestant autism knows no bounds

Guess these early Christians are idolaters

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