Why do some Protestant worship like Catholics with altars, statues and crucifix? Arent these against the point of the Reformation?
Why do some Protestant worship like Catholics with altars, statues and crucifix...
Blake Young
Other urls found in this thread:
angelfire.com
en.wikipedia.org
twitter.com
Nicholas Campbell
Nope. If you go to traditional lutheran churches, you'll be surprised at how "catholic" it looks. That's because Luther intended to reform the Catholic church and there were many Catholic traditions he fully accepted.
Those things are against the radical reformation though, which is a different thing all together
Jack Sanchez
That is beautiful. Based tradlutheran
Kayden Nguyen
Altars are not desirable for any Protestant denomination because it reflects the blasphemous sacrifice of the mass. You'll have Lutherans that will use altars, but that's mostly because it was already there. Because of Lutheran opinions on state authority they were strictly opposed to any form of iconoclasm which was unsanctioned by the prince, even though they were sympathetic to it, and sometimes that command to break the idols did come. They believe it is ok to put images up in the church, so long as it is clear they are not for worship (either latria or dulia).
As for the Reformed tradition, it's easy for higher church Christians to rope them in with the Anabaptists, but you have to keep in mind they were still "magisterial", and therefore more or less opposed to bottom-up reforms (but I doubt anyone will contest Calvin and Zwingli were iconoclasts). They saw angry mobs rushing churches to destroy their images as extremely disruptive and chaotic, but they did from time to time support popular waves of iconoclasm (like the beeldenstorm). The Reformed do not want images to be put up in the church even if it is made clear it is not for worship, because they fear it would not be enough and the common man would still worship it because it is in the place of worship. In the words of Calvin, "man's heart is a natural idol factory".
Evan Harris
Lutherans to this day have altars. The pic I shown is one example of a modern American Lutheran parish that does in fact have an altar. According to Diarmond Mcmulloch, Reformed electors in Germany were furious at Lutherans because most of their worship retained the form of Mass which is deemed too Papist. So if this is anything to go by, the "table" would still be reverenced, just as Anglicans also retained it as many writings record the act of "reverencing the altar" which would be a wooden table that is clothed.
So I only see you as more accurately describing the Reformed and Anabaptists. Now they truly wont have anything to do with Rome
Ryan Watson
Oh I forgot to add, during Kierkegaard's time he got to preach at a newly constructed cathedral, which yes. has an altar. So it is weird for you to say Lutherans reject the structure or use of an altar
Ryder Wood
Lutherans does not support iconoclasm.
LCMS theologian, Francis Pieper
I don't know where he got that idea from.
James Lopez
High church Lutherans will build altars, but they are not orthodox in the Lutheran tradition, and even still the altar is just being used as a table, not an altar.
The Lutherans did retain much of the worship of the mass, however they did not retain the belief it is a propitiatory sacrifice, which is the sole reason it involves an altar. Nobody "reverenced" the tables. Tables were introduced to reflect the Protestant belief that the sacrament is a meal, not a sacrifice.
Christian Foster
High church Lutheranism is the Lutheranism of Luther and whole of Lutheranism. What is called "High Church Lutheranism" has been so well known amongst the Nordics too. Also, if Lutherans retained much of the Mass, then they also retained the same acts of reverences toward the altar in worship. Even the book of Concord calls the Eucharist "Sacrament of the Altar"
Gavin Gomez
“truly and substantially present in, with and under the forms” of the consecrated bread and wine (the elements), so that communicants eat and drink both the elements and the true Body and Blood of Christ Himself (cf. Augsburg Confession, Article 10)
Josiah Evans
Lutherans reject both Calvin and the Radical Reformation, which is where you see iconoclasm creeping back in. Literally Luther saw himself as an actual reformer, not as someone seeking to break away. This is also why Lutheran writings from the Reformation reference canon law of the time. It was well known that iconoclasm was rejected at the Seventh Ecumenical Council, so why would Luther embrace it? Remember that second-generation Lutherans started a dialogue with the Ecumenical Patriarch, believing that they must be almost fully in agreement since they both should reject what Lutherans saw as modern abuses of doctrine. Obviously, they weren't, but it shows the mindset.
It all comes down to the interpretation of Sola Scriptura. For the Radical Reformation especially, it means that if it is not explicitly in the Bible, it must be rejected. For Luther and Lutherans, it means only that dogmas must have a Scriptural basis, and traditions that contradict Scripture should be reformed.
Mason Gonzalez
High Church Lutherans are literally just Lutherans. Low Church Lutherans are just evangelicals in denial. The altar is still an altar in Lutheranism. Literally Luther refers to the Eucharist as "The Sacrament of the Altar" in the catechism. And of the Mass, the Augsburg Confession says, "Falsely are our churches accused of abolishing the Mass; for the Mass is retained among us, and celebrated with the highest reverence." (AC, Article XXIV)
Alexander Brooks
What do you think that means?
Who was that guy who wanted his followers to call themselves evangelicals again?
It isn't seen as an altar. Again, altars in Lutheranism are an aesthetical tradition, not a doctrinal one. If one believes the mass is a sacrifice for his sins, he isn't a Lutheran at all
Yes he does. Why do you think he said that? Maybe because it was celebrated exclusively with an altar up to that point?
Lutherans will say they retain the mass, but the substance is not there. It does not mean the same thing to a Lutheran that it does to a Roman Catholic. When a Lutheran refers to the mass, he means only the Lord's Supper. The whole of the Reformation is summarized in the abolition of the mass.
Also, about that passage from the AC, keep reading
"There was also added the opinion which infinitely increased Private Masses, namely that Christ, by His passion, had made satisfaction for original sin, and instituted the Mass wherein an offering should be made for daily sins, venial and mortal. From this has arisen the common opinion that the Mass takes away the sins of the living and the dead by the outward act. Then they began to dispute whether one Mass said for many were worth as much as special Masses for individuals, and this brought forth that infinite multitude of Masses. [With this work men wished to obtain from God all that they needed, and in the mean time faith in Christ and the true worship were forgotten.] Concerning these opinions our teachers have given warning that they depart from the Holy Scriptures and diminish the glory of the passion of Christ. For Christ's passion was an oblation and satisfaction, not for original guilt only, but also for all other sins, as it is written to the Hebrews 10:10 We are sanctified through the offering of Jesus Christ once for all. Also, Hebrews 10:14 By one offering He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified. [It is an unheard-of innovation in the Church to teach that Christ by His death made satisfaction only for original sin and not likewise for all other sin. Accordingly it is hoped that everybody will understand that this error has not been reproved without due reason.]"
David Jackson
I think the the various tithes paid to the churches and the perceived corruption and excesses were the biggest problem instead of some smaller cosmetic detail.
Sebastian Lewis
Luther's "Evangelical" isnt the same thing as today's Baptists or Evangelicalism today.
Like it or not, Luther retained the altar and form of Mass. His philosophy after all on these things isnt that hard to figure. If it aint broke, dont fix it
Xavier Smith
The Calvinists honestly are the reason Anglicans/Episcopalians are considered “Protestant” in the modern usage of the word to begin with. The same is probably true to a certain extent with Lutherans, which I admittedly know little about.
Brody Kelly
David Sanchez
Hey not saying it was Orthodox (in the sense that it was deemed acceptable by the church) to do so, but in its original form, the Anglican Church was Catholicism minus papal authority.
Andrew Reyes
Not the first time it happened.
en.wikipedia.org
Jack Ward
I've seen catholic mass and I've attended Lutheran mass, they are basically the same, maybe lutherns use more music but I attend lcms church so "old school" Lutheran
Levi Jones