Immaculate conception is accepted by Catholics, Orthodox, as well as many Lutheran and Anglican denominations.
Most denominations, including Catholics, go further and say that Mary was also free from personal sin.
This doesn't make sense to me.
Jesus was able to redeem our sins on the cross because he, while being fully god, was also fully man and also completely without sin. It's universally accepted Christian doctrine that Jesus was sinless and it was his sinlessness that gave his blood the power to be given in compensation for our sins.
If Mary was free from original sin and also personally sinless, why not just sacrifice her on the cross to redeem mankind? Why do we need Jesus to die on the cross if we already have a perfect human who can die on the cross for our sins?
Why do we need to sacrifice GOD INCARNATE IN THE FLESH instead of one exceptional HUMAN that happen to be sinless because God did her a favor
The answer is in the question user. Unless you're equating a single human with GOD
Jaxon Green
Also Mary was created sinless because God needed a perfect receptacle to incarnate himself on earth. Can you imagine Christ coming out of a woman touched by sin? Really, it might be obscure at first, but It all makes sense if you study the doctrine
Charles Anderson
Because your theory doesn't have enough Christus Victor in it
Parker Price
Yes? Jesus was free of original sin because He was virgin born, not because His mother was sinless. Your doctrine is unbiblical
Kevin Evans
the power of Christs blood to redeem all mankind of sin doesn't come from the fact that it's divine blood, it comes from the fact that it is sinless blood.
As I understood it, Christ had to come and be sacrificed because there was no human on earth who was sinless. And so God came as a man and offered himself as a sacrifice of the sins of man.
If it was just divine blood that was required, God could have come in his heavenly form and shed his blood for our sins. What was required was the blood of a sinless man or women, hence the need for Jesus
Noah Thomas
Where does the Bible say that?
Also, riddle me this. Let's say that orignal sin is an infection. What happens when you mix infected blood with non infected blood? Does the infection disappear?
Carter Hall
Romans 5:12-21 It isn't, it is a curse which is placed upon the children of Adam. Since Jesus had no father, he was no child of Adam, but the father of a new household, which one is a member of not by birth, but by faith.
Adam James
You disregard the fact that Mary was a child of Adam. One half of His human nature came from her. Which means He was 50% a child of Adam. You inherit original sin from your parents when you're conceived. Now, if one parent has it, it will also pass to the child, will it not?
Bentley Jenkins
What do you mean "half"? Where'd the other half come from? He was 0% a child of Adam because we're talking about a lawful curse which is placed on the house of Adam. Jesus had no father, so He was not a part of that house. Patriarchy passes through the son. You inherit original sin when you belong to Adam. It isn't biological
God aka God the Father. Even you prots accept the teaching that Christ was fully God and fully human in one person, do you not? It is clear from whom his human nature came and from whom his Godhood came.
This sentence makes no sense. If you're from the house of Adam, you're obviously his biological relative, otherwise you're not of his house. Christ's mother was of this house. Christ took flesh from her, Mary was not a surrogate mother, as I said, Christ got His human nature and form from her.
Hence this sentence also makes no sense
Hudson Perez
Yeah, if you lazy Prots could stop casually lumping us in with Catholics constantly that would be great.
Wow that's blasphemous. Are you a Mormon? Do you think a divine nature is half a human nature? You said "One half of His human nature came from her" Eve was not Adam's daughter, yet she partook in his curse. Why? Because households are not biological. Adam was her head, so his curse was her curse.
Lincoln Scott
I have no idea what you're getting at.
I think that His human nature came from his mother, Divine from his Father. Pretty simple. Human nature contains original sin. The only way for a human to avoid inheriting original sin is if his parents don't have it.
This is completely irrelevant. All humans are children of Adam, biologically.
No, you don't have one. Mary is a child of Adam, as all humans are and hence all humans have original sin. Since Christ was fully human (and fully God), He would've inherited it if his mother had had it.
John Jones
Orthobro here – just to clarify, we don't believe in Immaculate Conception as envisioned by Catholic theology because we interpret the doctrine of original sin differently. All humans are born sinless but have a proclivity to sin inherited from Adam (i.e. consequences, not guilt). Mary was born sinless, just as all humans are, but was able to remain sinless throughout her life through the grace of God and exercise of free will.
Nolan Smith
Ok user. You might not be able yo do anything but repeat the same strange error over and over and over again, but I am the one with no argument. 😪👎🏻
Nathaniel White
Yeah, you have no argument, you're demonstrating it. You can't call something an error and expect it to go away. I have been perfectly clear.
Like, how many times is Christ referred to as the Son of Man in the Bible? And you're telling me He wouldn't have inherited original sin if His mother had had it? Ridiculous.
Landon Carter
That isn't the Cat's take on original sin either, which likewise is premised on proclivity, not guilt. See pic.
Mary conceived without sin, but at the very least she had Original Sin.
Nathan Murphy
Jesus Christ was God the Word who TOOK ON the flesh of a son of David. He was/is not half Mary/half God genetically. His human incarnation was only temporary. He was incarnated by SPIRIT, so he could choose whoever he wanted to be born from. He never NEEDED to be born from Mary, that's like saying Mary is partly responsible for bringing about the incarnation. At any rate, Jesus Christ no longer possesses his Earthly cloak, but a spiritual body like we'll have one day.
Xavier Ramirez
Because she is not God thus cannot provide a sacrifice of infinite worth to remit an infinite punishment. Also she is only given the grace of sinlessness by the merit of the crucifixion.
Ayden Diaz
According to that heresy that means that man does not need a Christ but can get to heaven simply by not sinning. This means all children who die before the age of reason go to heaven.
Jayden Foster
Did Enoch and Elijah need Christ to die for them before they went to heaven? Would Adam have gone to hell had he not eaten the fruit? Conversely, all children who die before the age of reason go to hell through no fault of their own under your heresy.
Dominic Moore
Before Christ the corruption in the human nature was a barrier between us and God. Therefore, even the righteous men went to Hades. Moses saw the uncreated beatific light (Numbers 12:8) but even he went to Hades expecting there the Christ.
The Catholics don't believe in inherited responsibility for sin, and both Catholics and Orthodox would agree to say that we inherit the consequences (not the personal guilt) of Adam's sin, but Catholics believe that the loss of grace is so great that Mary couldn't have responded positively to the Annunciation if she had original/ancestral sin. So if Mary was sinless during her life, and was specially prepared by the Holy Spirit to be ready to receive God in her womb, two statements both Orthodox and Catholics agree with, it means she necessarily had no original sin from the moment of her conception for the Catholics, but not for the Orthodox.
Brayden Cooper
Even if one were to grant the part about not needing Christ, this would literally be impossible. The Law of God is absolutely perfect, like the idea of a circle compared to any circle found in nature. No man is able to meet what that would require, hence even this hypothetical person would still be in need of sanctifying grace in order to be in the presence of God.
Zachary Perez
And No, it isn't.
Adrian James
another reason why prot atonement theology makes no sense. you can get a 2 year old baby and sacrifice it, it will have no sins. really, so baby sacrifice is what prots believe is the way to the world. you guys really are trying to be like pagans. even 1 million babies sacrificed won't atone for the sins of the world, only LITERALLY GOD sacrificing himself can atone for all the sins of the world. despite how amazing St. Mary is, her sacrifice would not be enough for the whole world, and actually her not being born of original sin was won through the cross (the Lamb, which was slain from the beginning of the world) Rev 13:8.
Also being born without original sin doesn't make you the savior of the world. Adam and eve were also born without original sin, and they sinned. In fact the biggest sinner of all time, Satan, was born without original sin at all either, and was a more perfect being by nature (angelic) (however human is how raised higher because of the incarnation).
Anyways hope this helps you, I know the issue is that I've seen a lot of prot street preachers with this same weird argument, that there had to be a sinless person to be a sacrifice and only God could come down for this, but that's silly, every baby aborted is sinless, for example. And don't try and play games about consent either, so if i told a 7 year old to be a sacrifice for the world, and they said yes, boom, we didn't need Jesus? The sacrifice is proportion to the amount of reparations needed. One dumb kids life isn't enough for all the sins that's ever happened in the world, that's way too much.
Nolan Edwards
new born baby is sinless, gonna sacrifice some babies to Moloch - uh.. i mean YHWH. brb
Jacob Green
Christ's conception being immaculate is mandatory as a Christian belief.
The problem isn't being a good person or even suffering, it's about being holy.
Kayden Ross
Would Adam have gone to hell had he not eaten the fruit?
Adam wouldn't have died… but he was on earth. Sharing the beatific vision with God in the afterlife is something supernatural. The garden was a natural paradise, which is actually what some people think the highest level of hell, Limbo (or Limbo of the infants is). Natural paradise, you do not suffer because you have not done anything wrong, but it's a far cry from the supernatural union from God you receive in Heaven, sharing in the beatific vision.
Nolan Jenkins
So you're saying Jesus would be born to a whore sinner, that's fine with you too. Just because you are born without original sin doesn't make you a superhero, Adam and Eve didn't have original sin, neither did sinner numero uno Satan.
Nicholas Young
No one said anything about Mary having been a whore.
Jason Garcia
The immaculate conception refers to Mary, not Jesus.
Jackson Mitchell
Also, Jesus need not have even died on the cross to redeem men. He could have not had to suffer and just done it by his will alone. It was because it was most appropriate of a method and you could say the most beautiful way, is why he did it.
Similarly i mean God could just have restarted the world a million times over or just created humans in heaven without all this redemption arc story. He does things because it is most beautiful and appropriate.
I'm sure if God wanted to, he could be conceived to a whore like some prots would love to think of Our Blessed Mother. But God found it most appropriate and beautiful to be born to a woman free from original sin.
Being free of original sin doesn't make you God, otherwise you must think that Adam and Even and Satan (and all the demons) are gods somehow too.
Jacob Young
Did you limber up before that stretch? Be careful,
Even newborn babies aren't sinless, anyone who has spent any time around infants knows that, they have to be carefully trained and disciplined or you will raise a monster
So you really think fetuses and zygotes are out there sinning? my sides
Mason Bennett
the issue is protestants have no sense of God's majesty and beauty. They seem to think that God is stuck in some framework around where he has to act in and he can't just do as He pleases. Like he created humans but ahhhh gosh they won't stop sinning. Think God Think! You need to come up with a way to fix this! Now what do the rules say, oh i need to find someone sinless and then sacrifice that? Ahh i see the rules now! Okay lets see… gosh darnnit, no one is not sinning! Even those zygotes and fetuses, sinning in the womb! Okay I'll go and become a human and sacrifice myself, there is no other way!
God doesn't need to have any sacrifice for sin. And you are pretending like if someone doesn't sin they go to heaven, but they don't. So according to prots every miscarried baby pre-christ was going to heaven anyways. So humanity didn't need a savior. God could have just made all the good people die when they were in the womb and let all the reprobates live longer than 10 seconds (oh… so THIS is calvinism!).
God incarnated and redeemed because it is the most beautiful way.
Ryan Watson
Sure thing. Can you logically explain or present real evidence of her immaculate conception? >surely it isn't waifuism I mean… It's kind of a big deal, strange it's not mentioned in scripture anywhere considering how important it is…
Anthony Rivera
Also you people act like God needed to do any of this at all. He didn't need to make humans, he didn't need to make time. He could have just made angelic creatures and that's it. He could have just made a bunch of humans and angels in heaven and thats it too. You guys act like God really wanted this but he couldn't so he had to run around and make some special cheat code plays to make this all work out.
Hunter Cruz
you have literally no idea of what original sin is, so how are you going to understand what the immaculate conception is. make a new thread trying to understand that first, baby steps.
yeah, because adam and eve being without original sin means that they are being deified.
see what i mean. you have literally no idea what original sin means, so you can't know what the immaculate conception is. go spend a few days researching and then come back. put a bit of effort, sheesh.
that's like explaining to tell you that this animal is a cat not a dog, but you have literally no idea what a cat or a dog is. listen you got the internet. first learn about what original sin is. you have proven you don't understand in the slightest what it is. neither do you know what immaculate conception is, it has never referenced to Jesus.. there is just one immaculate conception, and that refers to Mary. You need to do a bit more reading please.
Jackson Miller
it's not you refuse, you don't even know what it is. you basically said if you don't have original sin you are deified. first of all why? what is original sin even, can you explain what we believe it is? why did adam and eve not have original sin, were they deified? do you think we believe that adam and eve were gods? do you think not having original sin means that you can't sin?
He didn't that the point. That's why you prots find it really hard to understand most things. You guys literally believe that God had to give Jesus as a sacrifice otherwise he couldn't do what he wanted? That's the issue you guys have, why did he even create humans and have them sin, you seem to think all he wants is to have humans in heaven and he has to hack his way around things.
These are typical fedora arguments :(
Cooper Harris
Someone's mad. Yeah, no idea what I mean about deified.
And you completely missed the point. Hilarious.
Kayden Clark
As everyone else here has said, the Orthodox believe that Mary was immaculate by God’s Grace, she was born with ancestral sin, although not passing this facet of her human nature to the Lord.
What matters, however, is she loves you and she wants you to be with her and Jesus in heaven.
oh wow, so who was the Queen during when Solomon was King? Guess what, it was his mother. That's how the Kingdom of Israel (oh guess who's the King of Kings is now? hmmm.. might be Jesus)
Oh so an aborted baby is now deified too because they are sinless. Gotcha. The absolute logic of prots.
I don't blame you for being so dense. Well I do a little bit, since you have the internet now. I guess I can't blame people some people thinking Christianity is a stupid religion when so many people interact with this version.
Anthony Perry
And again can't stick to the topic, just jumping around like headless chickens. First it was about the immaculate conception, they didn't even know this refers to Mary, kept on talking about the immaculate conception of Jesus, like there were too. Failed to show any idea of what original sin is, and then went to "muh deification". Now once shown that Adam and Eve and Satan had no original sin, how has to run again to "muh sinless life, Queen". Now shown the mother of the King is the Queen (not the wife) and shown how aborted fetuses are sinless too, oh yeah let's jump around again.
Seriously if you even did 10 min of research on all of this it would be so much better for you.
Adrian Adams
*like there were two
Isaiah Wilson
Still no evidence I see, not even the slimest of proofs. Kinda sad honestly. You would understand the point of issue if you spoke English and understood the concept of "immaculate conception", as far as scripture is concerned only one person meets that criteria and it isn't your waifu
