I've been lurking on here for a while. I'd like to become a Christian, but I have a few questions first.
If God is omniscient and entirely good, why does he permit evil? Why did evil come about in the first place? If it's because of man's free will, why did God give him the gift if he knew what it would entail? Why did God create man and then just have him sort of go back to him in the end? Are we living in a comedy? I don't know how to answer these questions so I'm looking for some answers.
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We had a thread recently about the "problem of evil", and I reaized from that thread that it's very important to clarify what is meant by good and evil. Because the problem of evil was originally posed by Epicurus who identified evil with pain and good with pleasure, and furthermore for him pain (i.e. evil) was the positive reality and pleasure (i.e. good) was just the absence of pain, and so a negative reality. This is exactly the inverse of the Christian world view. Firstly, pain and suffering for Christians is not something inherently evil, suffering can be good. Secondly, good is considered the poistive reality, and evil is just the absence or lack of good. So any debate between epicureans and Christians where they don't clarify these things from the start will inevitably lead to talking pst eachother and can lead no where.
1) Because God respects the free will He gave to His creatures.
2) God temporarily permits evil to happen only so that it may lead to good (Gnesis 50:20). He will forever eradicate evil when the Day of the Lord happens.
Because God loves man. Remember the parable of the prodigal son. You are asking why the father bothered to have children, knowing that one of them would betray him and squander his inheritance.
Here’s a thread we had on the issue a while ago. Not every post is great, but there are a lot of great posts in it
Our greatest living philosopher on the topic
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You should know that you don't need to have exhaustive answers on these hard questions to realize the need for salvation and the truth of the Christian gospel
In a sense he doesn't. Say you see a man drowning in a river, and you run towards him, dive into the river and swim towards him, and it takes you 30 seconds to reach him, in those 30 seconds are you permitting evil? No. In the same way God is actively striving to destroy evil, he already conquered death and sin on the cross, and we are looking forward to him finishing the job.
The biblical story of Genesis (Be it literal or allegorical) points towards a higher metaphysical and theological truth, mankind was in communion with God and fell away from him. When we were with God we had love, we had life, we had truth, but Adam turned away from that and spread it to all of humanity like a disease (Be it original sin in a genetic sense or a distortion of reality that affected everyone).
There is no love without risk. God created everything out of love, and made us in a way in which the love would contain a risk. God knew we would fall away, but also willingly also chose to become incarnate and undo the wrong we did.
Can you elaborate on this please.
Not in the modern sense.
The general view is that God is the ultimate good, and so evil is the absence of good, similar to a dark room without light: the darkness is not a substance or a form, it's just the lack of light that brings it about.
Evil came about because man has free will, which by definition includes us leaving God's light if we so choose. It had disastrous consequences, and while He knew it would happen, He chose not to stop it because for lack of a better term, it's all according to plan. We're not perfect creatures, so we were bound to mess things up, to make a poor judgement call, and God knew this too. That's why the Son of Man came to give us another chance through a new covenant, one that included all who came to be His adopted children. If God had merely zapped goodness into us, it would no longer be love given freely, so instead we were gently moved over the course of centuries to a better understanding of the Divine Truth; we may never find the 100% certain truth, but like I said, it's all according to plan.
We don't know for sure what being reunited with God entails, but authors far smarter than me theorize that it will be utter completeness like nothing in the mortal world could even compare to. As mortals we're not even an iota of the way to understanding how it will feel, how it will be, and that mystery will probably stick around until we all stand to be judged.
I guess you could say that we are; many events in my life are absurd and hilarious when I think about it a man who has been a diehard atheist becomes a neo-nazi pagan only to give it up and become the only Catholic in his family because he happened to have Venerable Fulton Sheen show up in his YouTube after struggling with his faith for over 20 years I find it best to roll with it at this point.
And as a final note, one if the biggest mysteries of life is that no matter how many questions we answer, many more pop up in its place, yet we're not so turned off by it. Keep searching for the answers brother.
Read the summa
What about destructive forces like hurricanes, volcanoes, asteroids, etc.?
Why does He permit it to happen in the first place? What is the necessity for it? I am not just talking about the evil associated with the free will of man, but of natural disasters and other terrible events.
But man is not omniscient. God knew that the man would drown and need rescuing, but he plays it out anyway. For what purpose? When will the job be completed? Why have a whole process dedicated to it if He is omniscient and knows what is going to happen regardless of the actions men take?
I understand. If Adam's gift from God was free will and that had to have the possibility of evil come along with it, why did God create the previous evils I spoke of?
Why? Why would He create something that He knows will fall into sin and then attempt to redeem it only for it to sort of work? Are you implying He is a comedian?
What is God's reason for creating man? To give the free will that God possesses to his creation? What is Heaven? What is man's destiny according to Christian belief?
But God is omniscient. Why does He allow the absence of good everywhere, not just when it comes to free will? I agree that darkness is not substance, but it has to be accounted for as well.
What plan? God's plan? What does that plan entail?
There's a whole range of theories of what being "complete with God" means. Everything from heaven being perceived as a physical place to heaven being a state of mind achieved on earth in order to accept death and the return to eternity counts depending on who you ask. I'm genuinely curious as to what you guys on here truly believe and I'd like more details.
Caused by Adam's sin. See Genesis 3:
The world was disfigured by Adam and this will only be solved at the final judgement. See Romans 8:
Why does He permit it to happen in the first place? What is the necessity for it? I am not just talking about the evil associated with the free will of man, but of natural disasters and other terrible events.
The greatest evil of all is death. First, for an overall view of what God does with evil, see the book of the prophet Habakkuk. While I cannot cite the entire book for obvious reasons, I suggest you read all of it. The overall point is:
- Israel is corrupting God's creation by sinning greatly, and betraying His covenant.
- God will use Babylon to purify Israel, by taking over the nation and leading its survivors into exile.
- But Babylon is not innocent either, and so God will in turn punish Babylon, and all the smaller nations that were hurt by Babylon will rejoice.
- But God will not entertain this vicious circle of having sinful nations destroy each other. This is not what divine justice is about. Ultimately, God will cut this vicious circle short, by introducing His own glory to the creation and purifying it of all its evil, so that all evil things will be gotten rid of forever and all good and holy things will be forever preserved.
Why do I talk about it when this seems to be about the sin caused by man directly? Because this directly applies to death. Death is not natural, man only became mortal because of Adam's sin. See Genesis 2:
Just as God used Babylon to punish Israel without endorsing Babylon itself, God used death to purify the world without endorsing death itself. Examples of God using death to purify the world are plentiful: there is the Flood, there is the attack on Canaan, there is the death sentence in th Law… But death of man greatly grieves God and is not His primary will. See for instance Ezekiel 18:
cont.
Or Psalm 16:
Or, if you're a deuterocanonical kind of person, Wisdom 1:
With the works of Christ, God destroyed death for good. Yet people still die. Is death still being used by God in the economy of salvation? No. God only used death in the economy of salvation to purify the world in preparation for His Messiah, and He took upon death Himself to destroy it. Now the world is purified by Jesus Himself, by the sacrament of Baptism that lets us die and be resurrected with Him.
But while God's work to save His world was done at Easter, the final judgement proper will take place at some point in the future. The resurrection of Jesus was an "echo" of it, so to speak. This is why Sunday is called the Day of the Lord, even though this refers to the final judgement in the Prophets.
Then why do we still get to suffer and die right now? Because God's Kingdom is not fully established yet, although the Chuch is an "echo" of it and paves the way to it. Until the second coming happens, the existence of death and suffering can still remind us that 1) we need salvation and this world is still not as God meant it to be, 2) we can and must help those who suffer, whether because of human sin or because of natural disaster, and 3) we must remember that we are sinners and our life might cease at any time. Even the Lord points out that natural accidents do not happen because God's justice wills it so, but must remind us that our life might be cut short at any time and we must repent. Luke 13:
We must have faith in God and trust that He has conquered death for us, that His whole creation will be deified and made peaceful again, and that what others mean for evil, God means for good. Wwhich not only means other individuals but also angels, beings without reason, and the rest of creation, because the death of those who carry His image grieves Him immensely, see Genesis 9:
“What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—” Romans 9:22-23
I’m curious where you heard this from, it seems pretty at odds with Christian theology to view death as the natural state and oblivion the fate of humanity
In this instance of the drowning man, he was on the path home to his wife and kids but saw treasure chest floating in the water. He could have just walked straight home, but instead he got arrogant and dived in the water, thinking he could best the raging waters.
That was the man's choice, if God stepped in pushed the man home then he would be violating the man's freedom.
We don't know, we pray that it occurs soon. God is timeless, to him a second is to a us a thousand years.
The process is the way to keep Humanity as it is yet at the same time saving it. If God intervened and made everyone believe in him then where would our free will be? We would be slaves and not sons.
Adam did, as I said earlier the fall was a metaphysical event that affected reality itself. God made the world good, we corrupted it.
>Why? Why would He create something that He knows will fall into sin and then attempt to redeem it only for it to sort of work? Are you implying He is a comedian?
It worked perfectly user, why didn't it? The only ones who lose out are the ones who reject the gift. If there was a cure for cancer but many people refused to have it because of pride then does that mean the cure is a failure?
Love. God made the universe out of love, but he made humanity in a special way, he asked us to commune with him, to reciprocate the love he has for us.
He gave us free will because of the love. He made the universe out of a love that was free and not forced, similarly we must love him in return freely and not against our will.
The ability to love, whilst hell is the absence of this ability. Heaven has multiple meanings.
The restoration of man and existence to what it originally was. A New Earth, a heaven on Earth.
I mean, sons still know their dad exists.
Do they? if a baby was left alone on a desert island, would he know he had a father?
Evil exists because of the nature of good and evil, for good to be meritorious and well … good a person must have to choose to be good, and evil must be an option. Because if good is the only way things can be then it lacks merit and is not good and it is the act of automata that cannot make choices rather than the act of a human being.
God permits evil because he can bring something of even greater good out of the evil. Simple as that, this has been repeated since Augustine and earlier. Christ rathers us join him in heaven as victors, fighting against evil and conquering, rather than just "poof" you are there.
St James 1:12 DRC1752
12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation; for when he hath been proved, he shall receive a crown of life, which God hath promised to them that love him.
The problem that I have with this is that everybody has his own definition of evil, so this question ends up being impossibly confusing.
Is your car breaking down evil?
Is your mother dying evil?
Is someone attacking you evil?
No. Those are adversities, and they exist so you can make a choice between good and evil action. Only the things YOU did matter ultimately when you stand before God to be judged.
If you choose to become Christian, there are only two rules:
Rule 1: Become Orthodox.
Rule 2: Don't become Catholic.
Is that you are a willful and stubborn retard.
How many times do we have to explain?
Evil = choosing to exclude God.
Doing anything that is against the truth and goodness of reality.
And there is no evil without an actor. A stone can't be evil for hitting a bird the same way a gun isn't evil for killing a murderous criminal. Only the person moving them.
If something terrible happens without a personal actor, we call that a TRAGEDY.
Yeah, and we all know whose definition matters.
respectable
retarded
Oh, user. Such poor logics.
Some of you orthodox have some weird ideas that are so distant from the core of Orthodoxy
I know an Orthodox priest irl who said he's had to start giving talks and lessons on the errors of "Internet Orthodoxy" that he said lots of theologically protestant western converts come in with.
I can't stand the Orthodox who say things like this. Jay Dyer is right when he says that Orthodox are some of the most egregious spiritual virtue signalers.
Holy Scripture? No, that's something protestants believe in. We're above all that.
He's right though. Many converts to Orthodoxy I've encountered online and irl are just protestants looking for something liturgical and pretty where they can still say crap about the Pope of Rome.
That being said, not all Orthodox converts, and certainly not all Orthodox in general are like that. But consider that an Orthodox priest actually has to go give private, 5 hour crash courses on Orthodox theology in order to correct these kinds that keep stumbling into his parish and calling themselves Orthodox.
Most orthodox converts are like that. You see it on this board all the time. Them saying that orthodoxy is closer to protestantism than Catholics? Them calling Catholicism crypto-atheists? And so on. They just couldn't defend Protestanism but have been raised since an early age to hate Catholicism so they stay as a prot in ortho clothing.
hard to blame them, orthodox converts only have 2 crowds to hang with
1. protestant converts who still act like protestants (mostly online)
2. russians or misc. other eastern europeans they cannot possibly relate to (real life)
oh, and then the real life crowd treats them with suspicion because they think they're there to poach their girls
easy converts are annoying no matter what denomination but Larpthodoxes are particularly annoying. Either convert and drop your relativism or stay protestant.
God doesn't permit evil, Heaven is perfect and sinless. You're thinking in worldly terms, not focusing on eternity but rather on the 60-odd some years you have on this forsaken planet. If EVERYBODY in this world decided TOMORROW, to believe in God, to love thy neighbor, to repent of their sins, and CRY OUT to God. Do you realize how amazing life would be even on this Earth? Yet, man still decides to rebel against God. How did evil start? The Bible says that Lucifer rebelled against God and Lucifer along with a third of the angels were cast out of Heaven.
God is Love. Love does not force, Love does not demand, Love loves and Love grows. Adam was supposed to be the perfect man, he lived under perfect circumstances. He walked with God, he talked with God. Adam was created supernaturally. God only wanted Adam to love Him. Yet in spite of all this, Adam chose to disobey God.
Jesus Christ is the perfect Man. Jesus Christ obeyed the Father, even unto His very own death. He was tortured, mocked, and bled on the cross for our sins. Follow Jesus Christ, He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. He is the answer. No one goes to the Father except through Him.
I've never seen a Orthodox say that they're closer to Protestantism than Catholicism. That's Catholics insulting the Orthodox for schisming.
Read Romans 1
It's because Adam listen indirectly to a tempter. Also read Romans and Job (latter, optional).
Same reason God created anything: for His glory. Romans goes in detail.
That's kinda what Augustine asked along with the idea of love as an other explanation. Do you know what he likes to give commentary on? Romans.
orthodox manage to keep up sacraments, so I wouldn't say so
My thread got deleted
and I have all answer christian here can give me
they say no one create god because god create and beyond the time
then I ask why I don't go back and fix all his problem they said god want free will
I say free will to see your creation suffer is evil
they use st. aquinus " we cdome to god not by reason but because mystery"
and then my thread got delete
THEY DON"T KNOW THE ANSWER
That's not even what makes it a schism
So much for wrecking OrthoLARPers. What is with Zig Forums and trashy peer pressure attempts to convert/expel/whatever Orthodox like ?
I've seen Ortholarpers say that they're closer to Protestants allll the time on this board. There have been at least a few threads with that topic (guaranteed there was one) and several posts, Ortholarpers calling Catholics crypto atheists and so on.
In reality though they're former Protestants who have so much hate for the Catholic Church that they're LARPing are Orthos. Don't think that there aren't loads of them on this board.
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