DAMN THIS SCHISM

Benjamin Scott
Benjamin Scott

WHY CAN'T THE GREAT SCHISM JUST PLEASE END? I CAN'T DECIDE BETWEEN ORTHODOXY AND CATHOLICISM.
I became an Orthodox Catechumen not too long ago, but out of no where I've suddenly have had the strong urge to look back into Roman Catholicism, and now i'm in this predicament where I can't figure out between the two churches what I want to join. I still want to be Orthodox, but the more I look into the future the less it seems likely, and I still have a strong attachment to the west. WHY DID THE DEVIL HAVE TO SEPARATE THE TWO CHURCHES DAMMIT

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All urls found in this thread:

magister.blogautore.espresso.repubblica.it/2017/12/04/orthodox-churches-in-decline-except-in-ethiopia-a-survey/
ocl.org/pew-study-reveals-critical-decline-in-orthodox-religious-membership/
agensir.it/quotidiano/2018/4/3/patriarch-bartholomew-to-the-roman-clergy-even-if-slow-the-walk-towards-the-unity-of-our-churches-is-unstoppable-implementing-a-project-for-a-joint-easter/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Rite#Antiquity_of_the_Roman_Mass
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Roman_chant

Liam Hill
Liam Hill

begome wesdern ride ordodox :DDDDDDDDDDDDD

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Owen Martinez
Owen Martinez

There is hardly any western rite churches though

Lincoln Morales
Lincoln Morales

I've noticed it's a very common tendency for people to lean toward Catholicism because of "it's connection to Western history/culture". I don't really get that. When the apostles first traveled the world preaching the gospel they were essentially bringing something Near Eastern in origin to peoples of various origins. The eariles Christians didn't go "nah, not Western enough, sorry", they accepted this new gosepl gladly as the means of effecting their salvation. I'm not "Western", so maybe I just don't get why that's so critical to people.

Thomas Murphy
Thomas Murphy

eariles
earliest

Bentley Lee
Bentley Lee

God willing there will be more. Orthodoxy is the fastest growing branch in America (in terms of Catholicism/Protestantism/Orthodoxy).

Camden Hughes
Camden Hughes

BEGOME EASDERN GADOLIG :DDDDD

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Kevin Evans
Kevin Evans

I don't understand people who say this as if the differences between Orthodoxy and Catholicism weren't gigantic or their interpretation of history and the Church Fathers and the Bible wasn't dramatically different.

OP, instead of thinking they are nearly the same thing and you can step from one side to the other, actually study both and figure out what is of God and what is of the devil. You can't get baptized if you're not sure about becoming Orthodox anyway, so you don't have a choice but to do more extensive research here.

Two interesting books:
- The Filioque
- The Papacy and the Orthodox
both by A. E. Siecienski.

Jordan Ross
Jordan Ross

Except Christianity is not of near East, it is of God and everything that is beautiful and perfect represents God. People are attracted to Roman Catholicism because it has beauty, perfection and culture in abundance which reflects God. The patriarchate of Constantinople of the other hand has hand a tendency of discouraging anything that hasn't originated from them, such as enforcing their Rite on the Patriarchates of Antioch and Jerusalem, almost making extinct the rite of St James and the Syriac rite. The bishop of Glastonbury I know second hand to be anti western rite because he thinks it is too Western and only wants Byzantine rite. Unfortunately the Patriarch of Moscow is right that the Patriarchs of Constantinople have acted throughout history like tyrannical anti popes who pretend that only they have a monopoly on orthodoxy in philosophy, liturgy and religion and immediately distrust and are difficult about anything that does not cone from them. And you see this is why ultimately Roman Catholicism appeals more to people's intuition, because it is the universal religion, whereas there is some truth in Byzantine Churches being ethnic clubs suspicious of outsiders.

Jayden Nguyen
Jayden Nguyen

I was in the same position as you. Ultimately the crux of the schism is: does the Pope hold a divinely appointed leadership Role or a man appointed administrative role? If you think the former then you agree with Rome, if the latter you agree with Constantinople. The entire schism can be solved by looking at Matthew 16 18. You are Peter and on this rock I will build my church, etc.

Constantinople acknowledges the Pope as the first among equals, yet feel compelled by supposed heresy of the Pope to not obey him or even remain in communion with him. You must realise the schism is entirely one sided. Rome has no excommunication on Constantinople, but Constantinople excommunicates all of the Roman patriarchate including laity. The Apostles tell us not to schism, yet Constantinople does not follow this teaching. If you think the Pope is teaching heresy and immorality then don't obey any commands that would make you believe, teach or do heresy or immorality. But to schism and excommunicate? That's dangerous and is of the spirit of disunity that is Satan. The SSPX show how one can still show true obedience and unity with the Pope whilst rejecting taught heresy. So you should consider the SSPX. Although if you do get baptised and chrismated, you are free and able to receive the sacraments at any Roman Church

Jose Roberts
Jose Roberts

You are right when you say it is hard to pick inbetween the two, for both are heretics

Catholics worship Mary and Men

Orthodox worship statues

While one is more conservative than the other, i care not, for it is their spiritual value that maters the most, of which both is bad

If you want to be a part of the greatest christian movement out there, - Become a protestant under A charismatic movement

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Hunter Smith
Hunter Smith

Is he using a Zucchetto at mass?
What's wrong with him?

Brody Hall
Brody Hall

If only you had an objective standard by which to judge a denomination?

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Julian Perez
Julian Perez

One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Ryder Foster
Ryder Foster

All those schizms tho

David Wilson
David Wilson

If only you had an authority to interpret Scripture instead of thinking up your own interpretation

Robert Diaz
Robert Diaz

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Brody Barnes
Brody Barnes

Yeah, that was funny, especially the tatoo depictions. Don't you know that you are a temple of the Holy Spirit and not a Temple of Doom?

Ok, I made that last bit up, but I thought it was funny.

Isaac Sanders
Isaac Sanders

There's only one true church, and it's mentioned in the Nicene and Apostles creed. Why do you think we kept the name and everyone Larps with other random names? Cause we the Ark, hop on board.

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Aaron White
Aaron White

Don't become Romist.

Julian Kelly
Julian Kelly

Like the Church Fathers?

Dylan Scott
Dylan Scott

Except Christianity is not of near East, it is of God
Those aren't mutually exclusive. God works through history. After the tower of Babel he chose one man, Abraham, to be the father of one nation, the Israelites, who would carry on the torch of belief in the true God. Then to that nation, a Near Easter nation, the Messiah was born, one of whose tasks was the ingathering of the other nations.
everything that is beautiful and perfect represents God
Lots of beautiful things in false religions, as for perfect, there is very little that is perfect in our fallen world.

Dylan Rodriguez
Dylan Rodriguez

Muh AESTHETICS
Le ebil Constantinople
Muh ethnic club

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Mason Harris
Mason Harris

OK, we can agree both our statements were not complete correct. Christianity is not exclusively a near eastern religion, it is also a western religion.

False religions do not have anything beautiful in them. In fact its pretty universal that the art of all false religions looks like trash. Observe Mecca for example.

Jackson Wright
Jackson Wright

Muh ethnic club
In all honesty it's kind of true.
It's not a bad thing per se, but getting into an ethnic church isn't that easy.

Ayden Johnson
Ayden Johnson

Don't worry about schisms. Just find a nice Orthodox church.

Brandon Parker
Brandon Parker

I feel you, pray and be patient.
don't pick a Church because of theory, see where your spiritual progress is helped and where you stay stagnant.

Levi Clark
Levi Clark

That's what I've been thinking, but there's not Eastern Catholic division in this shithole of a state.
Thanks, I'll check those out
LOL no

Jeremiah Collins
Jeremiah Collins

I'm also becoming Eastern Catholic due to my deep love for the Byzantine rite and culture of Eastern Christianity, and I'm in that same situation. I have to drive to Ohio to go to Divine Liturgy at an Eastern Parish. I endure by going to a Roman parish and the Deacon and Priest, thank the Lord, is very supportive of my spiritual journey to the East and the Deacon loves Eastern spirituality too. I go to the chapel at my college and set up an icon for veneration when praying the Byzantine office, and occasionally attend an Orthodox church for Vespers or Liturgy, although still go to Roman Mass. (I think some Eastern Catholics are allowed to attend Orthodox liturgy in place of Roman Mass as to prevent forced Latinization, but they may not receive communion without the Orthodox bishop's permission, which they almost never give. But don't quote me on that.)
I'm biding my time until I can frequently attend Divine Liturgy, and I'm now tailoring my career path so I can work in an area with easily accessible Eastern Catholic parish, and am also in touch with a couple of Byzantine Catholic missionaries who are interested in trying to get a mission off the ground in my home state, and we've recently mailed the Bishop for permission.

Keep us in your prayers, and you'll be in mine, brother. I pray we'll find what we both seek

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Jaxson Hill
Jaxson Hill

Why do you people use low level cult techniques?

magister.blogautore.espresso.repubblica.it/2017/12/04/orthodox-churches-in-decline-except-in-ethiopia-a-survey/

ocl.org/pew-study-reveals-critical-decline-in-orthodox-religious-membership/

Brandon Turner
Brandon Turner

They're literally the same church but pretend they aren't. I'm a Catholic but protestantism is starting to look more attractive because it's easier to justify being a super traditionalist through self-interpretation than reading through mountains of autistic scholasticism that no one will understand if I try to use it to justify my views. That's right. I'm unironically starting to think protestantism might be better because it's dumber.

Aaron Peterson
Aaron Peterson

Catholicism and Orthodoxy are incomparable, because Orthodoxy is unchanged and Catholicism changes all the time.
Orthodox worship statues
No, we don't.

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Jason Nguyen
Jason Nguyen

The objective decision already was made by Christ, and He recommends Orthodox Protestant churches.

Camden Johnson
Camden Johnson

Are you a lay member? Why do you care so deeply? Realize as a protestant you'll still have to objectively defend your ideas to your local congregation but now it'll be your word vs their word, with no authority other than feelings.

Angel Martin
Angel Martin

As I said to someone else … have you considered the idea that it's not all about you?

Aaron Morgan
Aaron Morgan

Become a protestant under A charismatic movement
AMREN BORTHER

Samuel Gray
Samuel Gray

This is so based holy heck!!!

Caleb Nguyen
Caleb Nguyen

Sounds great man. Like I said, I've been an orthodox catechumen but recently I've had a sudden JOLT to look back into Roman Catholicism out of no where. So far there's only a maronite church here in my state, and I plan on visiting sometime this weekend. I may move to a state that has Byzantine Catholic mass, but I would like to be Catholic to celebrate all rites. I've just mostly grown attached to the near-eastern spirituallity since they have a spiritual depth I haven't found in most western churches. Plus the latin mass is nice, and honestly I've never seen a novus ordo mass that was LA-gay tier, not as spiritually deep it feels though for sure. So even if i'm far I may just practice eastern Catholic spiritual techniques.

Is there a way I could contact Catholic missionaries for an potential interest btw? I always wondered that. God bless you too
wtf is orthodox protestant

Caleb Anderson
Caleb Anderson

The way I did it was I found the eparchy that would have jurisdiction over my state, and submitted a public prayer request with my email address, and they found me. Maronite litugry is descended from the Syriac tradition, which has its roots in St. Thomas the Apostle, so don't expect it to be like the Byzantine tradition. It's beautiful in its own way, and you might just find it as efficacious, if not more.

God bless you.

Jacob Sanders
Jacob Sanders

Soon
agensir.it/quotidiano/2018/4/3/patriarch-bartholomew-to-the-roman-clergy-even-if-slow-the-walk-towards-the-unity-of-our-churches-is-unstoppable-implementing-a-project-for-a-joint-easter/

Zachary James
Zachary James

orthodoxy is unchanged
Except when it comes to birth control, amirite?

Jeremiah Lewis
Jeremiah Lewis

The tridentine mass did away with all the native western masses.

Kevin Powell
Kevin Powell

THE TWO CHURCHES
You mean why did the greeks have to split off from The Church.

Jason Campbell
Jason Campbell

catholicism and orthodoxy are incomparable because catholicism is constantly changing.

You know you're talking to an ortholarp (or less likely but possibly an actual schismatic) when they say catholicism is different to orthodoxy and that catholicism changes. Firstly you deny the creeds (I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church). Secondly, the definition of catholicity as defined by st Vincent is that it must have been held as faith by all the faithful all time. Hence catholicism does not change for the moment faith changes it. Ceases to be catholic and becomes heretic. Thirdly catholicism is orthodoxy, it's the only orthodoxy.

Juan Bennett
Juan Bennett

Except it didn't. The tridentine mass is merely the unchanged mass of St Peter that he promulgated in Rome. All the so called "native rites" in the west like the Gallican were actually just byzantine rite that was adapted to the west. The Roman rite of St Peter is the only rite of the west, unless someone can prove St Paul also promulgated a rite in the west or another apostle. The council of Trent merely removed thousands of bastardised hybrid rite (often byzantine) new abominations that were cropping up and reasserted the original unchanged petrine rite. Imagine basically novus ordo everywhere being repealed and replaced with the old rite, that is what it was like.

Xavier Wright
Xavier Wright

You mean why did the latins change the Nicene Creed.

Thomas Perry
Thomas Perry

"The leader of The Church clarifying the Nicene Creed is wrong"

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Lincoln Murphy
Lincoln Murphy

Which is hilarious because literally 98% of Catholic women use birth control. You also claim your Church is against sodomy when a whopping 1/3 of your clergy is gay.

Nolan Watson
Nolan Watson

If one of our Bishops is giving you Communion, then he's in violation of canonical law. You cannot be given Communion if you're not of our Church, period.

Henry Rivera
Henry Rivera

"Charlemagne called for a council at Aix-la-Chapelle in 809 at which Pope Leo III forbade the use of the filioque clause and ordered that the original version of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed be engraved on silver tablets displayed at St. Peter's Basilica in Rome so that his conclusion would not be overturned in the future."
clarification

Jayden Howard
Jayden Howard

one of our bishops
You know Eastern Catholic bishops exist, right?

Xavier Davis
Xavier Davis

That post was in reply to the claim of EOs being the only ones responsible for doing away with other liturgical rites.
But why would people in the far western Europe adopt a mass from Byzantines? Saying so makes it seem possible that Byzantine masses represent an older style of worship. But such a hefty claim is probably just militant sedevatcantshill bias on your part.

Wyatt Green
Wyatt Green

I'm not sedevacantist.

In the early Church the Byzantine rite spread to Gaul and Spain, leading to the Gallican use and Mozarabic. It probably spread because of the dominance of Constantinople and the missions from byzantine rite Priests and Bishops. However the Rite for the Western Patriarchate is the Roman Rite of St Peter not the Constantinople patriarchates rite.

In the Early to Late medieval period, the Patriarchs of Constantinople, back by the byzantine emperors began to pressure and force the patriarchates of Jerusalem and Antioch to drop the rite of st James and the Syriac rite to be replaced by the byzantine rite. This is the reason why those rites are almost extinct now. All rites cone from Apostles and are equally valid and licit. Since each apostle promulgated one that means they come from the same period, so the byzantine rite is not an older rite as that claim denies sacred tradition.

Tyler Wright
Tyler Wright

As much as Rome calls out with some degree of authority, scholasticism was such a disaster in the long run that it leaves me questioning the benefits. Orthos are equally apostolic.

Especially a concern for me, is that scholasticism tried to use philosophy to penetrate into areas I consider Christ and the prophets didn't openly speak of for the good reason that we are so sinful if we knew everything about heaven we would become the idolaters thereof, and never get there. These are specifically to do with the character of the afterlife, the identities of spiritual beings other than God, etc. Whenever this stuff is brought up, it immediately smells of death to me.

The only thing I do find useful from scholasticism is that there is a complex taxonomy of the heart, soul and so on which is detailed in near-scientific precision; that disturbs me sometimes because I worry that I'm still basically in mortal sin despite having had immense success with the venial. Nevertheless I'm neither, technically Anglo-Catholic/High-Anglican.

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Cooper Barnes
Cooper Barnes

The earliest rites are objectively eastern. If all the rites established by apostles are valid then why should they be subsumed by a Roman one. Furthermore it's strange that a Byzantine rite would be in Latin but that may be beside the matter.
In reality it was the Franks who wanted to impose everything Roman on the earlier established liturgies of the West and later through a process of standardization by the church. In past times the Roman rite was imposed on proselytized communities of other denominations as well.

David Peterson
David Peterson

Christ taught the Apostles exactly how to say the mass at the Last Supper. Each Apostle transmitted this with their own particular differences in the canons (which is what defines what a different rite is). If one examines the canons of the Gallican, ambrosian and mozarabic rites you will find that are byzantine or mixed with Roman. All the rites were promulgated at the same time because the Apostles all operated at the same time: 33ad up to 100. All the rites are eastern only in the sense they came from Christ in Jerusalem. But the Western Roman Rite came from St Peter so is the same age as the byzantine.

Yes you are right the Franks and the Popes did want to impose the Roman rite on the West because the West was the jurisdiction of the Roman patriarchate, so justice dictated it observed the western rite. It was a temporary aberration of economic that byzantine rite was in use in the west, just like it is an aberration to use the Roman rite in the east.

It is just to impose your rite in your own patriarchate, it is unjust to impose it in another Patriarchate's Apostolic see.

Easton Allen
Easton Allen

you will find that are byzantine or mixed with Roman.
It could be that earlier versions had a more archaic style including those used in Rome as even the liturgy used there would have had to be translated from a Greek source until later times when they wanted to standardize and bring it up to what was current in Rome.

Colton Carter
Colton Carter

Also how can you prove that unleavened hosts are more authentic?

Jacob Thompson
Jacob Thompson

No, liturgists have examined them and the Roman and byzantine rites are the first. The pre 1955 Roman Rite and the Byzantine Rites are the original unchanged rites promulgated by the Apostles. To deny this is to deny sacred tradition and the guidance of the holy spirit to preserve it. The burden of proof lies on the person denying sacred tradition. Archaicism or the belief that the rites we have now are changed is an error and leads to Judaism and protestantism. St Peter translated his rite from Hebrew to High stylised Latin, probably using Mark the evangelist.

Kevin Ward
Kevin Ward

Not really relevant to the discussion, but the passover of the Hebrews used unleavened or azymes bread and the Roman Rite continues this tradition. The mass is the fulfillment of the Passover with Christ as the lamb.

Jonathan Cox
Jonathan Cox

To deny this is to deny sacred tradition and the guidance of the holy spirit to preserve it.
Sounds like presumptuous circular logic.

St Peter translated his rite from Hebrew to High stylised Latin, probably using Mark the evangelist
The Gospel of Mark and the Epistle to the Romans were written in Greek.

On the eastern side of the argument there is the claim that Christ is risen. Pretty difficult to make an assertion as to which is more original.

Henry Thomas
Henry Thomas

You're going to have to explain why it is presumptuous circular logic.

The preserved versions of the gospel and epistle are Greek but the originals were probably Latin and preserved in the old Latin scriptures which St Jerome used in his Vulgate. But this isn't necessarily relevant either to the point that St Peter translated his rite into Latin for use in Rome. Latin was still the dominant language in the west even if cosmopolitan Hellenist elite Romans liked to use Greek.

As for the bread I would say as the Church says that there is no argument and both uses of bread are valid and important. This is the beauty of different rites, diverse ways of worshipping God.

Ryder Diaz
Ryder Diaz

To hell with both your religions

Charles Gray
Charles Gray

Well you claim that preservation of traditions is a sacred fact yet you proceed to suggest that the preserved versions aren't the originals?
Then you say variation is beautiful despite previous replies suggesting only the one authorized by the central authority in Rome is validated.
This is why it all sounds like willful circular irrationality.

Lincoln Peterson
Lincoln Peterson

You have completely misconstrued and misunderstood what I am saying, hence your confusion.

I am saying that the preserved versions ARE the originals. The Ronan Rite aka the Rite of St Peter is the original unchanged one. The byzantine rite aka the rite of St Andrew is the original unchanged one. The Gallican, ambrosian and mozarabic are later liturgical innovations of the byzantine rite but in Latin.

Liturgical innovation must be suppressed so that the original rites can be maintained, which is what the Church has done (until 1955). Diversity is good only in received tradition from the apostles, not from the traditions of man. God loves diversity hence why he created so many different creatures and gives people different gifts. He hates it when man tries to replace his creations with man's corruption's. Central authorities in the patriarchs and bishops are good as long as they observe their jurisdiction. Rites should not cross patriarchates because divine revelation instituted specific rites for specific regions.

Jack Jackson
Jack Jackson

You have completely misconstrued and misunderstood
Not true

The preserved versions of the gospel and epistle are Greek but the originals were probably Latin and preserved in the old Latin scriptures which St Jerome used in his Vulgate. But this isn't necessarily relevant either to the point that St Peter translated his rite into Latin for use in Rome. Latin was still the dominant language in the west even if cosmopolitan Hellenist elite Romans liked to use Greek.
Which is factually incorrect since both the old Latin and NT of the Vulgate are believed to have been translated from Greek sources as with translations in other languages.

Your whole argument rests on the unquestioned assumption that the central Roman authority had greater ability to preserve the customs more than other communities.
When one looks at the cultural history you find periods of Frankish influence and greater similarity with eastern customs in pre-Frankish traditions of Rome. Also there is no substantial evidence that all if any of the local western customs were influenced by Byzantines but rather developed that way natively. It's seems more rational to assume the central authority simply sought to do away with variation to promote conformity after many periods of internal turmoil and schisms and disputes with other theologies. All at the expense of traditions that had existed for centuries. The constant threat the traditions went under may have caused them to be even more tenaciously adhered to and preserved.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Rite#Antiquity_of_the_Roman_Mass

In his 1912 book on the Roman Mass, Adrian Fortescue wrote: "Essentially the Missal of Pius V is the Gregorian Sacramentary; that again is formed from the Gelasian book, which depends on the Leonine collection. We find the prayers of our Canon in the treatise de Sacramentis and allusions to it in the 4th century. So our Mass goes back, without essential change, to the age when it first developed out of the oldest liturgy of all.

"The prejudice that imagines that everything Eastern must be old is a mistake. Eastern rites have been modified later too; some of them quite late. No Eastern Rite now used is as archaic as the Roman Mass."

In the same book, Fortescue acknowledged that the Roman Rite underwent profound changes in the course of its development. His ideas are summarized in the article on the "Liturgy of the Mass" that he wrote for the Catholic Encyclopedia (published between 1907 and 1914) in which he pointed out that the earliest form of the Roman Mass, as witnessed in Justin Martyr's 2nd-century account, is of Eastern type, while the Leonine and Gelasian Sacramentaries, of about the 6th century, "show us what is practically our present Roman Mass". In the interval, there was what Fortescue called "a radical change". He quoted the theory of A. Baumstark that the Hanc Igitur, Quam oblationem, Supra quæ and Supplices, and the list of saints in the Nobis quoque were added to the Roman Canon of the Mass under "a mixed influence of Antioch and Alexandria", and that "St. Leo I began to make these changes; Gregory I finished the process and finally recast the Canon in the form it still has."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Roman_chant

Jeremiah Long
Jeremiah Long

The patriarchate of Constantinople of the other hand has hand a tendency of discouraging anything that hasn't originated from them, such as enforcing their Rite on the Patriarchates of Antioch and Jerusalem, almost making extinct the rite of St James and the Syriac rite.
That happened on both sides.
The roman rite consumed everything by various decrees, trying to impose their traditions on everything.
Which is why we had latin patriarchs in the East(the first modern Jerusalem one being called "The Butcher" for how much he hated anything orthodox in the Holy Land), and why the Maronites have been pretty much erased into a roman rite+some ancestral habits remaining.
It took Gregory II Youssef's encyclical for the Eastern Catholics to get some respect.
The bishop of Glastonbury I know second hand to be anti western rite because he thinks it is too Western and only wants Byzantine rite.
Ah, so a mini-bishop Irish.

Evan Butler
Evan Butler

Who says it is factually incorrect a part from you, with no explanation or contradictory evidence? Even the authors of the Eastern Orthodox Bible acknowledge that the gospel of Mark was probably first written in Latin as attested by some early Fathers but the extant Latin copies were not preserved. Logic would also suggest that an epistle to the Roman community would also be written/translated in Latin for a predominantly Latin community who used a Latin liturgy.

You say it is believed to be Greek, but believed by whom? I know modern scholars like to claim so because the earliest surviving copies of the NT (from the 3rd century) are in Greek, so they make the wild assumption that everything was in Greek, not considering that these copies only were preserved because they were corrupt (missing the johannan comma eg) and thus were not put to liturgical use but archived. To spin theories based on rejected manuscripts whilst denying received tradition is the ludicrisy of modernism. The Latin copies were most likely part of the old Latin versions which were then compiled into and preserved in St Jerome's vulgate.

Another example is that we know St Matthew wrote the first gospel in Hebrew/Aramaic as Papias attests and as St Jerome discovered a surviving manuscripted in the library at caesarea and used it for his Vulgate. However modern scholars deny this because they cannot find copies so they pretend it didn't happen. With the sack of Rome and destruction of the Roman empire in the west and the Greek east remaining largely untouched one can easily see why it would seem there were only Greek manuscripts as the Latin were likely all destroyed and preserved onlynin the vulgate.

My premise rests in faith that the holy spirit preserves the orthodox rites of the Church and that what has been handed down by sacred tradition is what the apostles gave to us and is a higher authority than modernist scholars and wikipedia. It seems you are more interested in discarding this because you either have no faith in received tradition or you just are anti-Roman. If you want to see the evidence of the traditions being preserved by native communities then look at the old monastic missals, which were preserved in isolation and are identical to the pre 1955 missal.

Joseph Lewis
Joseph Lewis

Aye, I agree that the Patriarch of Jerusalem should have been the rite of St James not St Peter. However consider that with the byzantine forced abandonment of that rite centuries earlier and the Muslim occupation, there probably were few people who still observed the rite, and they didn't exactly have the technology to communicate with and find them. A foreign Latin rite is just as equal as a foreign byzantine rite.

Tyler Miller
Tyler Miller

The rejection of the Johannine is comma based on its absence from all other traditions and in multiple early ones.

No evidence exists to your Latin primicist claims. It is not possible to uphold a theory for which evidence does not exist. The just about all of the scholarship in history would also disagree. Greek primacy is supported by Jerome's own statements and the Latin textual witnesses themselves whose mere existence is a result of the circumstances involving the Greek authorship of their source.

Jerome also didn't believe the Hebrew Gospel was authentic since its Lord's prayer (Panem nostrum crastinum da nobis hodie) contradicted later verses at 6:34. In this case however, the Hebrew Gospel enjoys more scholarly support.

Covering a lie with another lie won't work forever, might as well save the exercises in duplicity for another time.

Bentley Garcia
Bentley Garcia

98% of Catholic women use birth control
1/3 of your clergy is gay.
lies lies and more lies

Josiah Martinez
Josiah Martinez

But here’s the thing: the worst kind of lie is one that is believable. And the way your church is going, I could believe anything is happening.

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Kevin Reyes
Kevin Reyes

I CAN'T DECIDE
why is this such a regular thing?

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Ryder Collins
Ryder Collins

neither link supports your claim, other than very sketch numbers allegedly from the greek diocese

Aaron Flores
Aaron Flores

You disagree with the Eastern Bishops, Patriarchs, patriarchal text then if you deny the Johannah comma. You also deny the Western Rite Orthodox tradition if you think it is a later addition, and you deny the Eastern Church who see that as the rite of the West not the Byzantine Rite. Moreover you have no faith in the Holy Spirit to preserve sacred tradition in the Church, but you put your faith in modernists and (((scholars))) who in intellectual pride think they know more than the entire clergy of the Church throughout the ages just because they found a few rejected manuscripts in a late period.

Isaac Wilson
Isaac Wilson

It's not in their tradition.
You're applying the tactics of KJO false flaggers to the advocation of Latin primacism now. In otherwords a troll.

Asher Torres
Asher Torres

Firstly you deny the creeds (I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church
I too believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church, but not th Roman Catholic church. The hallmark of Catholics is to be poorly educated/stupid, you prove it right once more.
the definition of catholicity as defined by st Vincent is that it must have been held as faith by all the faithful all time. Hence catholicism does not change for the moment faith changes it.
Then the Catholic church hasn't been catholic since the filioque, and no Catholic today is catholic.
Thirdly catholicism is orthodoxy, it's the only orthodoxy.
You're a bunch of faggots, pedophiles and atheists, that's the only thing you are.

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Ryan Brown
Ryan Brown

Source for that claim?

Aiden Ortiz
Aiden Ortiz

catholic church is not catholic
catholics are not catholic

user, I… The first principle of philosophy is something is what it is. To deny this is to literally become delusional and insane. You're going to having to decide whether the catholic church and catholics are catholic or not and either affirm they are and stop saying they aren't or stop calling it the catholic church and them catholics.

Lincoln Long
Lincoln Long

The first principle of philosophy is something is what it is
Incredible that you think this means something is what you call it

Gabriel Morris
Gabriel Morris

WHY DID THE DEVIL HAVE TO SEPARATE THE TWO CHURCHES DAMMIT
he didn't, there is only one true church. schism is not a two way street, orthos are schismatics, they schismed from the catholic church, the catholic church did not schism.
eastern orthodoxy is just a meme for fags who want to seem smarter than everyone else without ending up looking completely retarded like a protestant. their only arguments are pure theological autism which no one even understands, but then they throw in the "rome lead the west into decay" bullshit as if the east is some kind of christian utopia. don't get caught up in their autism and fedora tipping

Christian Gomez
Christian Gomez

Lex orandi lex credendi lex vivendi
The law of prayer is the law of belief is the law of living.

If you say something is something then you believe (or will eventually believe) it to be so and live as if it is so. Ridiculous for you to think I would take you at your word and not assume you are bearing false witness. Beware what you say for you will believe it. And if you say delusional contradictions you will become literally insane

Joseph Taylor
Joseph Taylor

Nice projection, papist. You are as arrogant as the Pope that broke away from the true Church and helped contribute to the rise of Islam in the East.

Be proud, it's what you Romans do best.

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Gabriel Butler
Gabriel Butler

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