Pope Francis Implementing Change Of Lord’s Prayer: ‘Lead Us Not Into Temptation’

dailywire.com/news/39222/pope-francis-implementing-change-lords-prayer-lead-paul-bois?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=angrypatriot


According to the U.K.'s Express, the change to the Lord's Prayer comes after 16 years of research by experts who found a mistake in the current translation "from a theological, pastoral and stylistic viewpoint." It has been translated into literally hundreds of languages from the original texts in ancient Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic.

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Other urls found in this thread:

biblehub.com/greek/1533.htm
carm.org/lead-us-not-into-temptation
youtu.be/36GYBTzJyAU
aramaicnt.org/galilean-aramaic/classes/the-aramaic-lords-prayer/week-04/the-old-syriac-lords-prayer/
books.google.com/books?id=jgY2AQAAMAAJ&dq=editions:k9d-5MfhuGIC&pg=PA86#v=onepage&q&f=false
twitter.com/NSFWRedditImage

Literally don't care as I only say the Lords Prayer in Latin.

Also it should be: Induce us not in temptation

biblehub.com/greek/1533.htm
eispheró: lit. or fig. to carry inward
Original Word: εἰσφέρω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: eispheró
Phonetic Spelling: (ice-fer'-o)
Definition: to carry in
Usage: I lead into, bring in, announce.

Hmmm……

And yet none of those things have anything to do with linguistic translation. I prefer my scripture straight up, thanks.

So are they going to fix the stupid English translation?
Alleluia.

Not that Pope Francis one is better, but English is a shitty language what can one do.
In Latin derived languages the pater noster ends in something like: and don't let us fall into temptation.
The English version almost implies its not that leads you to temptations.

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It literally means “lead”
Once again, the Catholic Church disregards the Bible completely in favor of whatever dogma they like

The pope thinks he knows better than Jesus.

Hmm … "lead us not into temptation", meaning God would lead us into temptation. So God is a deceiver? That's very Muslim.

Not to be like Francis here, but I feel like “keep us from temptation” makes the most sense in English, even though it’s not literal as pointed out. really though the part that most people seem to have issues with is if the Lords Prayer says “give us this day our daily bread” or “give us today our bread for tomorrow”, and if it’s daily bread or supersubstantial bread.

I think it might be time to just learn the greek/Armaic version of this prayer.

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Not my fault English is a stupid language.
The prayer remains the same in Latin, Portuguese, Spanish etc.

Modernists seem to care.

Why is English such a shitty language to translate the Bible from?

I've heard English described by linguists and people who have it as their secondary language as a language held together by duct tape and prayer. It's just a shitty language in general.

He's taking a proper translation and turning it into a mistranslation. It literally means "lead us not into temptation"

No it doesn't retard. God leads no one to temptation. That's an heresy.
But unfortunately it's the only way to translate it decently to English.
winnie the pooh burgers thinking their language its better than anyone's else.
Translating the bible to vernacular was mistake.

So stop using it.

The retard is you and your 4th grade English skills

Read this sentence:

BREAKING NEWS: Papists say bible was wrong all along, pope is right, and absolutely nobody is surprised

Iirc that's pretty much what it is. Short version is that it's bastardized old English mixed with French, long version has pretty much every other European language haphazardly mixed in.

Very constructive post.

It’s always been screwed up. He’s just making it more friendly to CS Lewism. The literal translation is “Spare us from trial” or “Don’t let us be put to the test.”

You’re right, God leads us not into temptation
It’s literally what the original Greek and Latin say. Do not bring us into temptation
carm.org/lead-us-not-into-temptation
Who are you quoting?
καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν

Given that books like Job exist, it is very important to clarify the fact that God passively allows temptation, not actively allowing it. Yes, there are people with a 4th grade understanding out there, and some of them are 4th graders.

The literal translation is “and [do] not lead us into temptation”

You’re half right. Lead should be in there but temptation is more accurately translated trial or testing, with implications of it being bad or rough.

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Original Greek: καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν
καὶ: and
μὴ: not, to not, do not
εἰσενέγκῃς: to lead, to bring
ἡμᾶς: us
εἰς: into, in, to, at
πειρασμόν: temptation

...

πειρασμόν is what Jesus resists in the desert
It’s true that word is sometimes translated as trial in certain English contexts, but Latin preserves the meaning of Luke 6:13
Tentationem: temptation

Matthew 6:13, excuse me

εἰσενέγκῃς isn't a noun it's the subjunctive second person singular aorist active form of the verb "εἰσφέρω" which means "I lead into, bring in, announce." In the form εἰσενέγκῃς it means "may you lead", with the added μὴ it becomes "may you not lead".

I wasn’t claiming it was a noun, saying “to” is generally a way to distinguish a verb (i.e. to run, to jump, to lead)

Ok but if you're going to have it in its subjunctive second person singular aorist active form you might as well give the proper English translation. I know that sounds autistic but I am very autistic about my Greek.

That’s fine, I’m no expert on language in general
But do you agree the full phrase is “lead us not into temptation”?

I think it's odd considering the fact that εἰσφέρω is simply a conjunction of "εἰς" (into) and φέρω (bring, carry, lead). Every time this word is used in the NT and LXX it holds that sense. If it was abandon it would be ἐγκαταλείπω or maybe even ἐξέρχομαι (though that would be odd).
.

"And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen." - Matthew 6:13

Just use the KJV and your problems are solved. The Greek texts are uninspired anyway. Only the KJV is inspired.

No need to hold the KJV over the Greek when they are in perfect accordance

No the KJV is the only inspired book in the world.

Based and welchpilled.

ET NE NOS INDUCAS IN TENTATIONEM
New translation is bullshit. I will never use it.
To be precise is a new meaning, not a new translation.

The most literal translation I can come up with from the original Greek is this:

Our Father who is in the heavens,
let your name be holy.
Let your Kingdom come.
Let your will become [manifest],
as in heaven also [let it be] on the Earth.
Give to us our sufficient daily bread.
And forgive us our debts,
as also we forgive our debtors.
And may you not lead us into trial,
but deliver us from the evil one.
(Because yours is the Kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen)

Only those in brackets were not in the original Greek text and purely for effect in English I added; and of course the parentheses is the doxology which is missing in certain manuscripts.

Same word for bread as usual?

ἄρτος generally means bread. I know a minority of translations opt for "food" or "meal" from God, and it might be able to be translated like that, but in most contexts the word is used specifically for bread. Just think about how important bread was to 1st century Palestinian people, how important it was for their celebrations such as Passover and really just daily life as a whole. It was the main source of nutrition. It's what everybody ate. It was held a central place in worship of YHWH.

(Btw I am >>739857 and but I am not sure why my ID keeps changing.)

It's still temptation

You guys do realize using greek is against the rules right? The only languages allowed on this board are english and latin. This is a Catholic board whether you like it or not. Don't like it? Have a ban!

...

You are a larper if you actually go to a Latin mass.

I think in this context it’s likely a trial that enemies try to ensnare you with, hence the “deliver us from evil” right after.

The most literal translation I can come up with from the original Greek is this:

Our Father in heaven,
Reveal who you are.
Set the world right;
Do what’s best—
as above, so below.
Keep us alive with three square meals.
Keep us forgiven with you and forgiving others.
Keep us safe from ourselves and the Devil.
You’re in charge!
You can do anything you want!
You’re ablaze in beauty!
Yes. Yes. Yes.

user this is awful.

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It’s as literal as it can be, don’t blame me that English is a crummy language

You're a larper if you dont

Its the best you can do friend or "the message" bible can do.

I’m a Message onlyist

I guess people who like KJV have to have someone to look down on.

Nice. I'm a Pidgin Bible Onlyist!

What go you interested in it? Crusader Kings 2? Medieval 2?

Seeing a mass that wasnt celebrated like a birthday party for once

Are you insecure? I know for fact that is, but are you?

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I would not accept this. I would have even accepted "time of trial" but not "abandon us"

Den Yahweh give him one spesho message. He tell, “Elijah! How come you stay hea?!”
10Elijah tell, “I wen go all out fo you, Yahweh, Da God Ova All Da Armies! Cuz da Israel peopo, dey no like da deal you wen make wit dem. Dey wen broke down all da altar places fo make sacrifice fo you. Dey wen kill da guys dat talk fo you wit dea swords. An now, I da ony talka fo you dat still stay, an dey stay look fo me fo kill me too!”
11Yahweh tell, “Go outside da cave. Stand on top dis mountain, in front me, Yahweh.” Befo Yahweh pass by dea, get one strong wind dat make da stone come down from da mountain an broke da cliffs. But Yahweh, he no come wit da wind. Afta da wind, get eartquake, but Yahweh, he no come wit da eartquake. 12Afta da eartquake, get fire, but Yahweh, he no come wit da fire. An afta da fire, get one small noise dat almos no can hear, jalike somebody whispa. 13Wen Elijah hear dat, he pull his blanket ova his face. He go litto bit outside da cave.
Den one small voice tell him, “Elijah! How come you stay ova hea?!”
14Elijah tell, “I wen go all out fo you, Yahweh, Da God Ova All Da Armies! Cuz da Israel peopo, dey no like da deal you wen make wit dem. Dey wen broke down all da altar places fo make sacrifice fo you. Dey wen kill da guys dat talk fo you wit dea swords. An now, I da ony talka fo you dat still stay, an dey stay look fo me fo kill me too!”
15Yahweh tell Elijah, “Go back, da same way you wen come. From dea, go inside da boonies nea Damascus town. Wen you reach dea, put olive oil on top Haza`el head, fo show I stay pick him fo come king fo da Aram peopo. 16An put olive oil on top Jehu, Nimshi boy, fo show I wen pick him fo come king fo da North Israel peopo. An same ting fo Elisha, Shafat boy from Abel-Meholah town. Put olive oil on top his head fo show I wen pick him fo come one talka guy fo me, fo take ova yoa work. 17Haza`el goin kill plenny peopo wit his sword, an da ones he no kill, Jehu goin kill dem. An da ones Jehu no kill wit his sword, Elisha goin kill dem. 18But I still get 7,000 Israel guys dat neva go down on top dea knee in front da Ba`al god an neva kiss da Ba`al statue!”

Joke: Autographa
Woke: Translate KJV back into Greek

Not insecure, just stating some facts.

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Can anyone make heads or tails of this?

Upon announcing the study on the translation of the Pater Noster was concluded, a representative from the Episcopal Conference said: “The Bishops intend for the publication of the new edition to be an opportunity to help renew the ecclesiastic community."
“Liturgical reforms are just a starting point."
“The renewal shall include ordained ministers, as well as the believers."
“Developments like these are becoming increasingly crucial in the process of Christian initiation, in workshops and in proposals for the permanent training of the clergy.”

...

Vamvas translation: it’s the KJV translated into modern Greek

Firstly, what is archive.is or internetarchive
stop shilling your website

Secondly … what is this thread that attracts eleven posts in less than an hour?

Uh-huh.
< #alwaysGoStraightToTheGreek
The phrase is:
< Καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν
… the operative word is the third: εἰσενέγκῃς (eisenenkēs)
Seems to me it's always translated as "brought" or "bring", in which case "lead" is closer than "abandon".

Is this a case of liberal theologians rewriting scripture again, OP?

That said, I do not disagree with this assessment:
But, how spoonfed do you need your congregation to be? They can't refer to everything else they know about God's goodness and infer this doesn't mean "don't tempt me, God" …
Oooooh, I see the problem …

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ITT: people who use biblehub's greek interlinear pretending to be Biblical scholars

Better delet this post before the mods ban you.

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My priest uses Biblehub interlinear.

Should be "and bring us not into trialling".
The meaning of temptation has become scandalized in the current age and is now synonymous with seduction and enticement.


Learned the Peshitta form some years ago. Here's what a transcription of what I presume might be a classical Syriac pronunciation slightly different from modern Assyrian pronunciation which pronounces softened /b/ (Bēṯ) as /w/ and sometimes monophthongizes the dipthong /aj/ to /e/ and /ɑw/ to /o/. Open back unrounded /ɑ/ is also dropped and pronounced like /a/ in the ipa but I didn't transcribe it here anyway.

Avún d’vashmáyā,
nethqādash shmāḥ.
Téthé malkúthāḥ,
néhwe sevyánāḥ,
aykánā d’vashmáyā,
āf bár`ā.
Hav lan láħmā d’sunqānan yāwmānā.
wa-shvúq lan ħāwbéyn,
aykánā dāf ħ’nán sh’váqn l’ħáyaveyn;
wa-la tá`lan l’nesyúnā,
éllā pássān men bíshā.

Métul d’dílāḥ y malkúthā
w’ ħáylā w’theshbúħtā
l’`ālam l`ālmin
Amín

Assyrian rendition
youtu.be/36GYBTzJyAU

The are slight differences between Old Syriac and the Peshitta. In the fifth petition the Old Syriac has a future tense if I'm not mistaken as "also we SHALL FORGIVE our debtors" while the Peshitta appears to have it in the perfect ("as we FORGAVE our debtors").
aramaicnt.org/galilean-aramaic/classes/the-aramaic-lords-prayer/week-04/the-old-syriac-lords-prayer/

There are differences in the various inherited traditions. Old English had 'costnunge' (costnings) for 'temptation'. Some Latin translations speak about demitting debts as opposed to forgiving.
Jerome's did not believe "bread for to-morrow" to be legitimate since in his opinion it appeared to contradict later verse at 6:34 ("worry not for tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry for itself"). Nevertheless that appears to also be the interpretation in some Coptic manuscripts.
books.google.com/books?id=jgY2AQAAMAAJ&dq=editions:k9d-5MfhuGIC&pg=PA86#v=onepage&q&f=false

Looks like I did as ā.

The Our Father is such a beautiful prayer to savor slowly and enjoy each piece in order. It is timeless and powerful, directly from Jesus.

The term "lead us not into temptation" asks God to take us away from what may tempt us. You are asking God to lead you away from temptation.

As for the implications of what Pope Francis wants, I find that it fits with the nature of Bible versions that try to re-word things just to avoid copyright. I don't believe it changes the meaning too much, but neither do I believe it should be implemented. No one should temper with the word of God.

Posted by Aramaic Gang

The English translation isn't the word of God. Hell not even the vulgate is.

You heard it here first folks, the Bible was not complete until its KJV translation 1200 or so years after the first Bible's compilation.

Who are you quoting?

He is quoting this retard it clearly shows he believes the true Bible is the English one, otherwise his statement would be even more nonsensical.
Warn me if anyone tries to change the Greek Bible.

Actually the original Greek text says “lead us not into temptation,” the word abandon isn’t used at all. The KJV has nothing to do with this discussion, it’s just one of the many Bibles that accurately translates the Greek text of Matthew 6:13
You won’t find a single respected Bible translation that renders this verse using the improper Francis wording. They are all in agreement with the Greek text: lead us not into temptation

But in all other languages it can be transliterated to "do not let us fall into temptation".
Probably it's impossible to render this in English somehow.

I mean, I think the real problem with the English is the word "lead" which may assume slight different meanings in each context.

That’s not even what a transliteration is, a transliteration is just putting another language into English letters based on the sound. The transliteration of the original Greek is “kai mē eisenenkēs hēmas eis peirasmon”
If you meant literal translation, the literal translation is “and not lead us into temptation;” English word order gives us “and lead us not into temptation”

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Nah I found an original uncorrupted manuscript from a Calvery Chapel’s bookstore’s back room:

God in heaven, you’re our Dad.
We respect everything you stand for. We want others to.
Please bring heaven on earth: people living life your way, like the angels do.
Please bring us what we need to keep going each day.
Please acquit is, as we cancel our grievances and throw them all away
Please pull us back from the edge of evil, as we’re falling or being thrown.
‘Cos you’re all that maters, you’re able to do it and you’re to take the credit.
You’re on you’re own.
It’s your throne.
Absolutely!

Forgive my stupidity. I mean translation.

Wow. Thanks user, really cleared that up for me. Lord bless you