Eternal Punishment

1. State your Denomination
2. Do you believe in Eternal Punishment?
3. Do you think everyone deserves to be eternally punished?
4. Why?


~


feel free to digress into distinctions on sheol/hell and the eternal lake of fire, but they're probably a secondary issue; as is purgatory

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Other urls found in this thread:

orthodoxebooks.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/The River Of Fire - Doctor Alexandre Kalomiros.pdf
silouanthompson.net/2008/08/river-of-god/
orthochristian.com/46147.html
orthochristian.com/79592.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Peasants'_War
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Münster_rebellion
twitter.com/NSFWRedditVideo

1. Eastern Orthodox
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Because we are all innately effected by Adam's sin, from the moment we are conceived, and so we are necessarily too weak to turn toward God and be deified. Only baptism followed by the Eucharist can make us righteous and save us. Othewise we remain ennemies of God.

would that include the infant baptism the EO practices?

Not only infant baptism, but all baptism practiced by the EO.
Bishops disagree as to whether those who are not Orthodox are actually baptized or not, although concerning salvation it's not very relevant since they cannot be saved without the Eucharist anyway.

So now its bishops who decide who and how gets saved?

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cheers, i am remiss in my lernins on the EO, to my shame; and i thank you for the insight

if we might go back to some of the other terms you used; could you explain the Eastern Orthodox view of man being 'deified'?

1)EO
2)Yes…maybe
3)Its not that simple
4)"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."
It doesnt matter if someone "deserves eternal punishment" or not. Its about their choices and what they choose. Damned punish themselves by abhoring God and His love, while being at His presence.
orthodoxebooks.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/The River Of Fire - Doctor Alexandre Kalomiros.pdf
silouanthompson.net/2008/08/river-of-god/
orthochristian.com/46147.html
orthochristian.com/79592.html

oh, interesting – would you say that you come from another school or stream of thought within EO than the first Eastern Orthodox poster?

No, it's Christ who does, the same Christ who said:
All Orthodox Christian can administer baptism although it is preferably done by a priest. The disagreement among bishops is whether Jesus's commandment to baptize is directed at His followers alone or if anyone is able to baptize.


To be deified or divinized (theosis) is to become Christ-like, to put it simply. To make us become perfect like God is, God gives us His grace to become a new creation, to put on Christ, to be "in the shape of Christ" if I can put it that way. To be deified is to become by grace what God is by nature. Although that's also what Catholics believe.

Maybe, though most bishops and priests I know at least teach so, even ones as radical as Russians are. I dont know about first anons experience or knowledge on matter so I cant say precisely.
Though despite what I stated, Orthodoxy generally holds mystical attitude towards afterlife and teaches to have faith and hope in God at the end, rather than overthinking about it. So there are numerous theologoumena (theological opinions) about various subjects and hesitate to adopt rigid and dogmatic views towards such subjects unlike, lets say, Catholicism that is somewhat opposite due t their adherence towards Scholasticism.

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ah, you're too good to me bro – i really do appreciate you taking the time to explain that, for while i recognised that we seem to be drawing from Romans 8:30, the use of the word 'deified' surprised me, since i would more usually read 'glorified'
…And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.

yes, that's an impression i gathered from the discussions within the EO when reading up on a few figures within the church

and speaking of reading; thanks for the pdfs etc – will check them out in time

Catholic,
Yes,
Everyone apart from God, the angels who passed the test and Mary.
Because we rejected God, the price of which is eternal damnation.

nb4 this guy gets kicked for an infraction of rule 2

are you referring to the rebellion of lucifer, and the the two-thirds of the angels who didn't side with him?

Sbc
Yes
Yes
All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

The only way out is to believe on Jesus

SBC would be Southern Baptist Convention, yeah?

can you explain a little what you mean by 'only way out' – do you mean 'out of Hell'?

EO here, and no, God does. But our Bishops, being successors to the Apostles, called by God to lead, administer the Sacraments, and preach the Gospel, do have the authority to represent the Church in matters pertaining to Salvation (On this Rock, I will build my Church). The Church is the Body of Christ, and the revelatory fountain by which we find the full Truth.

got a little confused there, i think you meant to reply to , yeah?

Yes
Yes, colloquially
I'm not meaning to say you go to hell first then get out, I mean out of your status as damnable while living

If you believe on Jesus you will not go to hell, but if you don't you will.

Wasnt eve the one that sinned

They both did.

So anybody who believes in Jesus is automatically saved forever, and can never give up that salvation or do anything to be damned again?

1.catholic
2. No. God will annihilate the souls of sinners at the second judgement (at least that is how I understand it)
3. People punish themselves, meaning that all punishment is the direct result of their sins.
4. God loves us infinitely and eternally, and perfectly. That means that he doesn't punish us, he doesn't hate us, and even when he judges us, he does it so that we notice how far we have fallen. That being said, I guess there is such a thing as "have fallen too far". People who went so far in sin that it would never occur to them that there is a better way, or they actively scoff at the very idea of redemption.
To people and souls like that the only mercy is to put them out of their misery, and I believe that is what will eventually happen to them.
This is why it's important to recognize that God is calling all of us at every moment of every day, because that is the only way to avoid such a terrible fate.

Yes, whoever believes in him shall not perish

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Yes

Annihilationism is heresy. Human souls are immortal

1. Lutheran
2. Yes
3. Certainly, although I don't enjoy the thought of anyone being eternally punished.
4. Because we are all sinful right from the get-go and throughout our entire lives. Show me a man without sin and I'll show you Christ.

Eve listened to the serpent first, but Adam did nothing.

Eve was tricked by the snake, who carefully twisted God's words, manipulating her (and our) desire to reach the divine and become gods. In comparison, Adam was first and fully told about the forbidden fruit and he listened to the foolish Eve instead of God. Then Eve participated in Adam's sin by also eating of the fruit, but originally the fault is Adam's.

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. Genesis 3:7

Adam ate the forbidden fruit instead of saying, "Nah, woman, put that back."

Sorry, Gen 3:6.

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1. Anglican
2. Yep
3. Except Jesus
4. Sin

DONE

Except unbaptized babies who have no actual sin and only the sinful nature.

(checked)
This. Adam was tasked to lead Eve and his failure to do so was sinful.

You misunderstand. He literally stood there and did nothing during the whole conversation with the serpent. He failed to fulfill his role as the head of his wife.

Ditto

1. Orthodox

2. There is eternal state of separation from God and animosity towards God and therefore suffering.

3. "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die." (Ezekiel 33:11) God doesn't want anyone to be eternally suffering and we don't want this to happen. Nevertheless, many are going to be suffering for eternity despite what God wants.

4. Why? Because God respects what kind of person each of us is. He is not going to change forcefully the bad man to make him good.

Was he standing there? I always got the impression that Adam didn't witness the conversation, but I could be wrong. Also, at that point the husband wasn't the head of the wife. They were partners.

Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. Gen 2:24

I think the disagreement is not about the theory but terminological and, more importantly, about what is the best practice to follow when people join the Church.

The traditional Greeks would say that there are no sacraments outside the Church and in particular no baptism. When, however, one becomes a member of the Orthodox Church, his invalid baptism can be acknowledged as valid by economy because it is not the priest who performs the sacraments but God. For example on Mount Athos they perform baptism on catholic or protestant who comes to the Orthodox Church. On the other hand, the Churches of Greek origin in US usually acknowledge the baptism of the catholics and some protestants. I am not sure the Church in Greece has a rule about this because they don't have converts. Once I invited a guest of mine, Greek from Greece to watch the baptism of adults in my Church and for him this was a great attraction.

Most Russians, on the other hand, would say that that there is baptism outside the Orthodox Church, this baptism, however, is void of grace. This baptism becomes efficacious only when one becomes a member of the Orthodox Church. The Churches with Russian origin don't baptize catholics joining the Orthodox Church.

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Strictly speaking none, but have spent most time in Anglican congregations
Most often, but I am sorely tempted by annihilationism not because I reject "eternal punishment" but because, Biblically-speaking, fire is used to destroy. God told the Israelites or others to burn pooh to destroy it. I would think the fire is eternal, not necessarily the contents.
Yes.
Sinners before a Holy and infinitely righteous God – what other fate could we deserve? Praise be to Jesus Christ, then, that we might be spared.

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Who told you this?
When did God tell you this?
When did Christ say it?
Oh, now, it wasn't those pesky pagan-deist Greek philosophers who told you this via Augustine, was it?
What biblical verses can you appeal to that definitively prove this?

God is not so bound by human philosophy and atheist jokes about heavy stones that He can make something that He is then unable to unmake.

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45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’

46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matt 25

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What does that have to do with the Anabaptists?

Complete blasphemy

It's Anabaptist thinking, this idea of nullifying the bible if it happens to align with tradition is the ground and pillar of the Radical Reformation

That's a hot take
I seem to remember anabaptists believing so urgently in rightly practicing what the text said that they would rather face execution than disavow their totally nonthreatening practice of adult baptism by immersion

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yes the totally nonthreatening practice of adult baptism by immersion
what is the background of the depiction in the woodcut?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Peasants'_War
Also, bonus points
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Münster_rebellion
Anabaptists were violent terrorists that instituted unspeakable horrors in the few cases where they actually took power, and that is why (at least in Protestant states) they were persecuted.

Is the munster rebellion the result of practicing believers baptism?
this is like saying catholic baby baptizing is terroristic because the IRA exists

your timeline is exactly the reverse
Anabaptists were persecuted unto death for wrongthink because they took the Bible at it's word, especially under Zwingli and the Zurich council

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No, it's the result of the fanatical radicalism which likewise resulted in re-baptism. But that's not my point because 6c504c said "they would rather face execution than disavow their totally nonthreatening practice of adult baptism by immersion", which is how this tangent started. The point is they weren't being executed because they re-baptized, they were executed because they were dangerous insurrectionaries.
they nullified the parts of the bible that aligned with tradition*
They were most wise. They could see what the Anabaptists were before they revealed themselves.

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nice fanfiction
it's all been me with different ID's btw

They were explicitly being executed because of rebaptism before and after the munster rebellion.
Zwingli was a cuck who taught adult baptism to his students then compromised at the slightest state resistance.

I do not care to defend the peasants' war or the munster rebellion. I'm only pointing out that you're inappropriately conflating a political rebellion with a religious practice of those revolutionaries. Even more backwards, anabaptists were marked by nonresistance so the rebellion was against anabaptist orthodoxy.

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Absolute heresy. The souls of the sinners will be united with their bodies just like the righteous will, but they will be thrown to Hell to suffer for all eternity.

1. Southern Baptist that wants to see Russell Moore and the other """""leadership""""" hung from lampposts.
2. Yes.
3. Yes.
4. Says so in the Bible, and that we are only spared because of Christ, not ourselves.

Yeah, that was the charge. Never said anything about the charge, though.
Lolno. He had suspicions but ultimately concluded in favor of pedobaptism before the state even heard anything. It's not like he was convicted and then the council told him 'no' and he capitulated, there was even a public disputation just like there had been on the questions of Reformation and of the mass. As Schaff relates

1. kinda Catholic (lapsed)
2. yes
3. at times yes, but mostly because I hate myself
4. humanity, and myself foremost, disgusts me…

"no"

1. baptist
2. yes
3. yes
4. because we all have sinned, and heaven and hell are outside time and eternal. If we have to have any punishment, it would be eternal by necessity.

1. Predenominational
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Because that's how perfect God is

1. Catholic
2. Yes
3. No, not Jesus (of course) and Mary
4. We are all lost through original sin without the grace of our Lord's sacrifice through Baptism

1.Anglican/Episcopalian
2. Yes
3. Every man has fallen short, so yes (except Jesus obviously because He's God, came into the world fully God and fully man)
4. We are born into sin ever since the fall of man, when Adam and Eve ate the fruit.

1. CRC or PCA depending on location (although CRC is often kinda cucked, so sometimes protestant reformed or URC)
2. Of course, everyone who doesn't know Christ will face eternal damnation, a prospect too horrifying for our minds to understand.
3. Probably yes, it's an immensely confusing issue and hard to understand why it needs to be that way.
4. I can't understand the ways of God, I just try to accept it. It's only God's elect that are saved, but I can't say why.

1. Roman Catholic
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Because the Creator is always right, and if a person disobeys Him, that person deserves to be eternally punished. Everyone is affected by Adam's sin, our nature is fallen, and only through worshipping God, having faith in Him and obeying His commandments can we be saved.

1. Assemblies of God (Pentecostal)
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. "for all have sinned", "there is no one who does good, not even one" etc etc By our own merits we all deserve hell.

No, because women have no accountability.

God disagrees with you.

I agree with God disagreeing with me.

Agreed