"work" ἔργον doesn't mean to priestly duties, it refers to all action
biblehub.com
Exactly my point of opposition. sacraments are works and so can not convey (salvific) grace
I think we're concluding that the catholic/sacramentalist answer is that sacraments are not works, and that's the only way out of Ephesians 2:9
Is that said in your catechism somewhere?
Would you both agree that if sacraments were works, they could not bring salvation? This is a direct statement in the Bible.
Yeah I never said it did. Taking part in Sacrements isn't an active (masculine) part of Faith, it's a passive (feminine) part where we are to receive grace.
Thank you for the cool diction definition tho, I appreciate it. :)
to rephrase so that you dont twist my words
if you find physical deeds so repulsive and non-conducive to the Divine plan of salvation, then you reject Gods Logic that required Christ to come down physically, get baptised physically, heal physically, undergo His passion physically, and eventually be crucified physically.
Yes, no matter what we do in order to achieve enlightenment or salvation by our own power, we would not be able to reach Heaven because we are mortal and limited. Only when we obey Gods Will and accept His grace do we ever merit. And God commanded us to imitate Christ, and to receive sacraments.
Belief is not soley mental acceptance of the reality of Christ, it is bringing that reality of Christ in the flesh, like He did, and thus according to Divine Wisdom we sometimes have to do physical things to cooperate with His Plan.
Amen brother
gotcha, so it sounds like you don't think baptism or the lords supper are requirements to receive salvation
that's the point I'm trying to stay on and argue for
For any man besides Christ, we can not earn salvation. Christ was able to live a perfect life that we could not, making him the only suitable sacrifice.
I am in agreement with this post
what you said here though,
meaning
but the Bible says
do you see the dilemma?
This is not a twisting of your words
that's the point I'm trying to stay on and argue for
Are you a snake? Because you are twisting my words now as well because you completely disregard the Faith of Christianity when you make those claims against me. If so shame on you for not conversing in good Faith.
Those are vital elements of Christianity, it us on us to recieve the gifts that Christ brought from Heaven. It is not works as they are gifts for us to receive. Attending to the gifts and paasing them along is what works is! Not recieving!
I understood "I never said it did" as referring to "sacraments can not convey grace", I think that was my mistake
I think you're maintaining that sacraments aren't works. Is that right?
No, that is not what made him the suitable sacrifice. God is perfect, so with that Nature of Christ is he was fully Perfect, not because he chose to be so he just was. He never sinned because that is our Nature, yet he was still tempted by our sin since he was fully man.
The Sacrifice was only to be fulfilled by the Son of God, it's not even a question of who else could of done it- it would be impossible. His perfect nature didn't let him be the sacrifice, it was destined from the beginning, there is no other thought or Word that would fulfill HIS destiny.
It is a Gift. Everything he does for us is a Gift. Nothing we can do can ever merit grace. But God is just and he does view us by our actions and our heart. Works are called to us, and we are to fulfill them, if we do not God will see our hearts as being untrue to the actions and words that we have said.
If you are receiving sacrements there are not works, yes.
If you give the sacrements there are works.
Boom, trips of righteousness.