Being a recent event of such a large magnitude there's plenty of propaganda, hoaxes, misinformation and so on around it so can someone here explain it to me in detail how it began, why and what are the consequences of it as of now?
Can someone explain the Moscow-Constantinople schism?
William Williams
Jonathan Barnes
There are already multiple threads about this.
Lucas Clark
Mind linking me to some of these threads?
Benjamin Smith
There is huge conflict between Russia and Ukraine going on for years now. Annexation of Crimea, separatists in eastern Ukraine, etc.
Ukrainian orthodox church proclaimed that they want to be their own church and not part of Russian orthodox church any more.
Russian leader is against this because he would lose a lot of stuff and power if Ukraine leaves his church.
Constantinople leader supported Ukraine leaving Russian church.
That is why those two guys are in conflict.
Gabriel Perry
So it's dividing the faithful over politics?
Great…
John Ward
Which brings even further differences between Russia and Constantinople as well. The latter has his hands tied behind his back in a Muslim country, barely can even represent the Church if he even wanted to, engages in a lot of Ecumenism, and champions Climate Change as some pressing concern (ala like Pope Francis). Russia already went through a hundred years of foolishness under the Soviets, so I think they just want to get back to basics now.
Julian Wood
Yes unfortunatelly. But have in mind that politics play a huge role in the lifes of eastern euros and the middle east together with religion which often is a part of their national identity. Dont try to judge them by a secular western euro perspective.
As for the Constaninople-Moscow conflict, too fuss for nothing. Ukraine will have her own church and Moscow have no say about it. In the end they'll be forced to respect the canons.
Nathan Smith
Oh I do understand, I would to think so at least.
I'm Hungarian so sort of Eastern European, and I've been over the border especially in Ukraine quite a lot.
It's still sad to see.
Ian Perry
Since you are Hungarian, imagine being at war with Romania and at the same time your church to being ruled by them. Not very pleasant. I guess the ideal would be for Christians to not care about such things but it's easier said it than done.
Ethan Watson
The majority of people here adhere to a thousand different Protestant denominations so that would be interesting.
But yeah I guess I can certainly see how that would be troublesome, but how much do the people in Ukraine care?
Poroshenko seems a lot more interested in this move than any of the Ukrainian church goers I have spoken to about this issue.
Landon Bennett
They cared enough for more than half of the Orthodox population there to schism themselves (ps: schism for jurisdictional issues not theological, theologically they remained 100%Orthodox). Other have gone Catholic or Protestant and others stopped being Christians whatsoever. So the ones that were left in Ukraine's church under Russia were the ones that were either ideologically pro-Russian or those who didn't care at all.
Poroshenko and Putin are both politicians and care more about politics than Christianity so it makes sence. Our concern must be for the people.
Hudson White
The new Ukrainian Patriarch has just given a medal to an ex-CIA chief and immediately after pushed acceptance for homosexuality because "we should be more like Europe and less like Russia".
Hohol is glowing in the dark, basically.
Josiah Brooks
I thought? Ukraine is a bit like Ireland. There are ethnic ukrainians (the westerners/catholics) and russo-ukrainians (easterners/orthodox). So is this Ortho bishop part of the russified area? And he wants to split from Russian Orthodox?
Matthew Jenkins
The pro-West/independence party is orthodox, part of the newly elevated Church, the pro-russian is orthodox, but canonically under Moscow.
Sebastian Garcia
There aren't enough facepalms for this.
Chase James
Basically Constantinople acknowledged the Ukrainian Church as part of the Russian Orthodox Church many years ago, but has ever since been subverted by the CIA so they reneged on it.
Carter Reyes
Explain to me how it makes sense for churches to be identified with earthly nations in the first place. Nations are temporary, the church is supposed to be eternal.
Ayden Turner
It's more of a matter of practicality, organization, and translation. Unlike RC's (back in the day), Orthodox made a point of translating the liturgy and sacred texts in the local vernacular. Even that leads to a church with a little identity of it's own.
But if they have since distanced even further, maybe new jurisdiction is called for. I don't believe Ukraine has distanced too much on language (but there are differences apparently). Back in the day, all of these Churches used Old Slavonic, but that's a long time ago.
Angel Wood
"Haha ethnic churches are great nothing is gonna go wrong here it will all be fine and dand…. oh wait what the flip" - orthospergs
Tyler Butler
Ukraine is the canonical territory of the Moscow Patriarchate and has been for centuries. Then CIAtiggers and Eurogays support Nazis in Ukraine who want an ethnophyletist "church" out of pure politics and hate for Russia.
Meanwhile, Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople drums up some flimsy claim that he, in fact, is Primate over Ukraine (reneging on his previous claims); citing some technicality from a letter written in 1686, vague allusions to the Church Canons, and western liberal platitudes against the Russian state. This move, to anyone who isn't brain dead, is clearly geopolitical and not religious. Constantinople has aligned with Ukraine and the West against Russia.
Bartholomew then takes it upon himself to "reconcile" the anathematized bishops who schismed from the Orthodox Church over politics and who also have had personal ethical issues which would make them unfit for the clergy. Usually when someone is anathematized from the Church they're allowed back in through repentance, which would normally include a public recantation of their offenses. No such repentance has taken place.
What has taken place is a council to elect a new head of this "church" who recently commented that LGBT acceptance should be part of the agenda in the future of the "church", to distinguish themselves from conservative and traditional Russia, of course. The Ukrainian "church" wants to become more "European".
In reaction to all this, the Russian Church (rightly) excommunicates Bartholomew for his uncanonical actions.
So what we have is a "church" of unrepentant, anathematized schismatics headed by an eastern papist, who've aligned themselves with local Nazis and globohomo CIAtiggers, who now claim to be the true Orthodox Church in Ukraine.
tl;dr the new "church" in Ukraine is a total shit show and all true Orthodox know it.
Jackson Smith
By their fruits you shall know them.
Tyler Anderson
If Orthos were spergs, they'd be much more verbose.. and scholastic.
Wait.. that's like Calvinists and Thomists, isn't it? ;)
Cooper Morgan
Honestly though petty fights over jurisdictional issues are a lot better than what is going in Catholicism right now where the church is being ripped apart by heresy and heretical ecclesiarchs trying to change doctrine. I give it about 10 more years before some bishop somewhere ordains a female priest or officiates a homo "wedding" and gets tacit approval for his actions from the Pope.
Chase Wright
I hope you guys get over your eastern papist crush and get back with the Seat of St. Peter.
Adam Bennett
There are no papists in the East. Didn't you get the memo?
Nathaniel Howard
Just from the 17th century when they seize it uncanonically, as they tried to do with the church of Georgia at some point and got BTFO again (like in Ukraine). Moscow never cared about the canons and never really understand them unfortunately. For example the role of the EC, they believe that because now they have more money and political power they have become de facto the Ecumenical Patriarchate, which is not how things work. One of the reasons for that is that when we had the Ecumenical Councils they weren't even Christianized by Constantinople yet. Anyway their actions these days show that they still have some road to go theologically. I hope they stop screeching soon before they go full heresy.
Sebastian Cooper
That isn't the only reason. It's because Constantinople and Greece got conquered and occupied by Muslims for hundreds of years, and the burden fell on Russia. And to this day, Constantinople is frankly, a sick joke.
Colton Baker
but there are tzaros
Wyatt Lopez
And Russia was the atheist capital of the world few decades ago. Without being concuered by a foreign force, they choose that path themselves. Their patriarchate was literally created by Stalin and their patriarch was literally a KGB agent, speaking of jokes. On the other hand the Ecumenical Patriarchate never betrayed the church and a dozen of former EPs have martyred for the faith. I guess that's the reason why Bartholomew is the EP and not some literal who ex KGB agent (thank God).
Jaxson Martinez
The Soviets are gone. Did you miss that memo too? :P
Turkey won't even allow building new churches, and at best renovates a couple.. if they feel like giving permission. Even that famous case of the Protestant preacher who got arrested recently (and freed) somehow has more courage than the Christians in Turkey. They literally can't or won't do anything. They're just kept on life support. What kind of center of faith is that? It's absurd.
Meanwhile, Erdogan has built a whopping 9000 mosques in the last 10 years.
hurriyetdailynews.com
Nolan Long
In other news, the Ecumenical Patriarch in the liturgy comemorates both the head of the Ukrainian church, Epiphanius, and the former KGB agent who is the patriarch of Moscow now. Because that's his role as the spiritual father of all Orthodox, to keep us united and not to act like a child who tries to force schisms in the church for political reasons. That's why God but him in the seat of the EP after all and not some random former agent of the KGB.
facebook.com
Did he ever repent? Did he asked for forgiveness for working as an agent in the atheist secret police of the communist state? He looks quite proud to me based on his actions. And don't worry about the Ecumenical Patriarch, he knows what he's doing. He has survived through pogroms and persecution (without becoming a secret agent for atheists) and knows how to act. He also has more power than you think but because he's not acting like a meme BASED shaman some people misunderstand him.
Matthew Price
It's not that I'm worried about him personally. It's just that his hands are tied. This is no seat of power. He has no power in his land, nor his flock, and yet he would presume power everywhere else? That's ridiculous. Talk about overstaying your welcome.. and mimicking Rome at that. Since when did Orthodox become centralized?
And Constantinople on it's own means nothing. It kicked out many saints and godly bishops (even Chrysostom himself in his own day) and produced many of the heresies that caused schisms. But the beauty of the church is everyone is simultaneously able to pick up the mantle for a time.
Elijah Brown
That's what many people don't understand. His land is not Constantinople but all the barbarian lands, that is all America, Oceania, most of Asia and Europe (i think Africa is all under Alexandia's patriarchate but i'm not sure). Let alone Mt Athos which is the spiritual center of Orthodoxy. Based Putin in only a recent phenomenon, the Ecumenical patriarchate is 1700 years old, don't take it so lightly.
Dominic Harris
I can't figure out how this man is some KGB agent. kek. He knows how high the stakes are.. and is stalwart about his office and faith.
Jason Martin
...
William Bell
Connor Price
And?
Sebastian Powell
I don't. I just think the Church is always strong, as long as they're is one strong bishop/land holding strong, no matter where it is (and preferably more than one land). Focusing on some center will just lead to groundless despair, when and if it fails (like Rome).
Colton Hernandez
Because by the second coming of Christ the earth will be split into nations. Those who try to mix the nations (like the Jews, Catholics, Muslims), want to prevent the second coming, yet they will fail, but only because of us nationalists.
Christopher Reed
Jesus' own bloodline had Gentile women in it - but what was important about them was their belief in the true God. And some of the earliest disciples were of mixed origins. St. Timothy was half Greek and Jewish.. and got abused by so called nationalists who wanted to make him "full Jewish".
I am myself half Asian and Caucasian. I call the Lord himself to defend me and others like me that we may walk in his light, without certain brothers blocking our path.
St. Peter calls Christians their own nation: "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light." 1 Pet 2:9
It was our Lord himself, when asked "Are you the king of the Jews?" by Pilate, that he said "My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight."
Gabriel Nguyen
Congratulations on being an abomination and having no identity I guess? I do feel bad for you and believe you still have a soul, but you shouldn't encourage other people to make the same mistake your parents did.
Hudson Hernandez
An apparent abomination that loves you, for Christ's sake. I hope you find the light. It's not a good place you're in, my friend.
Andrew Cooper
Sorry but God is against miscegenation. The Bible really could not be clearer on this point.
Chase Cruz
It goes back to the days of the First Bulgarian Empire, which gained autocephaly during its wars against the Eastern Roman Empire. As with this case, having your religious head subordinate to the national head you are at war with is a sticky situation.
The Catholic Church pioneered a separation between Church and State by having the head of the Church a separate, ecclesiastical state to all Catholic nations. In theory, the Pope could avoid being influenced by powerful kings and could act as mediators between warring Catholics. In practice, neighbours such as France and the HRE tried to influence the Pope, setup anti-popes etc. The French even kidnapped the pope at one point. This is also why, during the Italian Unification process, the Pope was so vehemently against the Italian state - he could not be seen as being influenced by any temporal power.