stevensperay.wordpress.com
if the saved saints are so few, what's even the point of tryimg to live with piety, especially if you know youll never reach the narrow gate? I am a Christian, asking earnestly. I read my bible, volunteer, pray when I can. I only wish to grow closer to God, but I cannot imagine that I would achieve eternal life, especially compared to some of the saints quoted in the link above. Is it all hopeless?
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I don't think any of the saints considered themselves wortht of the Kingdom in Heaven, and truly none of us are.
Luke 14:11
For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.
We have to remove ourselves from the world, most of all. Christ said this repeatedly. Those saints knew it well, because they were ordained in offices that demanded it. But look at the early church in Acts: They all did this. They barely even considered ownership of property by that point. And the generations after them produced many great martyrs as well. By St. John Chrysostom's day, he was probably disappointed about all of the imperial citizens just going along with the new religion. Christ demands more from us. And the blood of martyrs does as well. Even if we aren't called to pay the ultimate price, the least we could do is honor them by not adopting the wicked culture around us.
The Gateway is narrow yes, even the entrance of the Faith is held back from many. How many do you see that believe In A God, but not the the True God?
How many Christians do you see that an unrepentant, how many do you see that are teaching blasphemous docterines, how many do you know that are hypocrits? These are all bars to seperate the true from false, the lambs from the wolves, the saved and the unsaved.
Search your heart for Christ. You will know if you are on the narrow way or not.
Following the Way promises failure, it guarantees death. But that is our Cross, that is our fate.
We die with Christ.
Yet we are to rise, like the mythical pheonix, to dust of our ashes and our filth of sin. Continue to fall and continue to rise for that is the Christian Way, with love in our hearts we obey.
This is what Catholicism does to you. There is no peace with God, There is no security. You have switched the mosaic law with thew papist one. To the catholic there is no difference between the gospel and the law of moses besides different rules and the abrogation of some. This is why you're even asking this question. As for me I have trust in the finished work of Christ on the cross. I don't participate in that sacrifice again every week. I don't go confession to get rid of mortal sins and I don't do last rites just in case I made a sin I forgot but rather I have faith in Christ and know that its benefits have been applied to me through baptism.
Romans 5:1
That's not true at all.
No, this is what happens when there is spiritually sick.
This is wrong again, the Catholic church's docterine is supply people with a spiritual life without a proper teaching it would be difficult for so many people to live a spiritual life.
As do all Christians, dont pat your self on the back.
Are we to applaud you? I'm there everynight in prayer or if I'm at divine liturgy and mass. My old Presbyterian Church even did the feast every Sunday, You're promoting a slack Christian Faith.
You don't even understand Confession, nor any Sacrement.
So… you don't think repenting is an applicable service to God? You think it's okay when you sin and not be repentant?
You don't think it's right to ask for forgiveness daily?
You don't think to show gratitude to Christ by holding to his mercy?
I… am at lost of words.
It's the same Jesus who said:
"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?"
And the same Paul who said:
"Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."
I find it amusing that catholics try to defend their beliefs from the bible. It's quite cute actually.
And when you're a catholic and don't know whether or not your going to heaven. In the catholic faith there is no certainty and so you must just hope for the best.
You think that the OT prophets didn't have that? They had prayers and things too that would help them with their spiritual journey. Also, what supplies are you talking about? I bet you mean mary and the rosary and sacred heart and stuff.
Not all for example consistent catholics who know what theyre doing don't have peace. Martin Luther when he was struck by lighting and feared for his life prayed to saint anne to save him. After he survived the fear of dying without doing confession or last rites feared him so much that he became a monk. This is't what peace looks like, catholic. You should really look up the biblical view of peace with God and not your man made tradition version.
lol, I'm Presbyterian and we take part in the Lord's supper. But don't confuse this with the papist version. For us the supper is spiritual nourishment for you it's a propitiatory sacrifice that makes present again the sacrifice on Calvary.
from your catechism. We don't believe this.
Nice rebuttal. Just call me ignorant without dealing with my point. You know damn well that the reason why you confess your sins, with contrition, is to rid yourself of mortal sins. is this wrong?
Last rites is different from repentance. Again this is the catholic trying to insert their beliefs into the bible and it wont work. Repentance isn't by having someone pray for you before you die. Again, we have peace with God and if you were a true believer you would have repented far back already.
This all is answered in philippians 2:12-13
"Not that I have already obtained this or have already reached the goal; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Beloved, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but this one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the heavenly call of God in Christ Jesus."
"but I punish my body and enslave it, so that after proclaiming to others I myself should not be disqualified."
Would it not be a great sin to receive the body and blood of Christ with unabsolved sins?
Then I don't know what the real disagreement is. Protestants (generally) have some kind of doctrine of sanctification and admit to these scriptures. Yet somehow they refuse to acknowledge that the same act of God is working in Catholics and Orthodox. They call the exact same things elsewhere as "works based" churches or something? It's not right.
That's because you're trying to earn it dummy
John 3:16 whoever believes will have eternal life
Nobody has existential peace if they're living in sin, you eventually have to choose Christ or your vices. Protestants innately know this, but they rationalize their resistance to following God's laws.
Is amusing user? You find it amusing when our hearts bleed for our fallen man and all you can do is snicker behind a screen? How shameful.
No one can know, not until we are judged on death. But we hold to Christ being our savior and that he'll redeem us.
Of course passed down by TRADITION, supplies, as in tools to reinforce the spiritual life. Supplements the richness of Faith.
Those are somethings sure, but that isn't what I was talking about.
There is great evidence Luther wasn't a healthy Catholic, he tried marrying as a monk, he was wrought with depression and other ailments how you use him for a point is laughable .
Buddy, you follow tradition as well. We all have traditions, do you think the Word of God is Living? Or do you think he is Dead, and ungrowing?
I come from a reformed back ground, obviously I know the tradition of Man you take part in. It's also spiritual nourishment in the Catholic Faith, it's just a much bigger deal because we take the Bible much graver, and much deeper.
No need for cursing here, protest ant.
We go to confession to reinforce the Faith of our forgiveness. We act out our Faith to one another.
Obviously
They flow from the Bible.
Obviously.
I repent daily, brother. I have peace with God. I do not have peace with who I am, not yet but in Heaven I will.
We are made to be in his image and until then I wont be complete, the same to you or any one else
You're being vile, clammoring with your teeth for anothers repentence when you your self are so against it! Hypocrisie!
You are the one who bites at sinners when they fall into the lake of torment! You are being no less than the gnashing of teeth.
For hell isn't just a place after death, Men walking today are ones who crawl through the lake of fire and you are the one who snips at their heel no matter the torment there are going through you ensure that it is not enough!
Begone.
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And just before that in v 3, this act of belief isn't some mere assertion or something so simplistic. "Unless a man be born again [born from above] he can not see the kingdom of God." This goes back to the work the Holy Spirit in our lives again. The Kingdom of God starts NOW, with the Spirit of God in our hearts and lives, renewing our minds. That's what believing in Christ leads to. Classic Protestantism teaches the same thing… and yet they would call that act in everyone else as merely human.
not everyone is a native english speaker
try responding to them instead of mocking them
I'm not the one condemning another mans Faith of Christ nor Am I asking for repetence on my behalf.
When you take a superior attitude against your debate opponent you should expect higher scrutiny
"Classic protestantism" teaches exactly what I said, sola fide
When you believe, you are born again
Look again, who started the derogatory denominational speech?
The Protestant did.
I only saw the High Pride come from him.
That quote was after the one I criticized you goober
The exact number of those in hell is impossible to know, based on pure speculation, and so I'm inclined to agree with Peter Kreeft in the attached image that few here isn't being used literally. God is good, he's infinitely better than any of us, and even someone as rotten as myself is inclined toward mercy. I see no reason to believe that God isn't as well, provided we're talking here about people who truly love God and the truth, even if darkly. At any rate, perfect justice will definitely be served.
10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
Good is good, loved entirely for itself. There's no other choice but to love and pursue the good. Your question makes no sense.
Protestants don't fear God now?
Really because this is the introduction of the poster to this thread, seems like he has a chip on his shoulder from the Get.
I dunno about that guy, but yeah we do. God is all we fear and, I mean, really fear. A man might torture us and kill us, but God can do things we can't even imagine. I know I fear God and beg his forgiveness every moment of every day.
The saints laugh in Ephesians 2:8-9
are you really tho? or are you inclined towards apathy? i mean, look at all the people who think being gay is fine. they say that they are the compassionate ones and would say that god would be even more compassionate then them, so he should let fags into heaven. many are called but few are chosen. and even if all the stuff in the bible is just to scare us into trying harder, then god did that for a reason. its better to assume that 99% of people go to hell, so that you try harder to not end up there yourself. our eternal fates are hanging in the balance right now, everyone should be walking on eggshells to say the least imo. and frankly, i think its a disservice to tell people not to worry. and if god just lets everyone who isn't a literal murderer or rapist into heaven, then whats even the point? despairing isn't good either though
The part you quoted was qualified by this one:
I agree with you, that would be a disservice, more so because the good is so obviously beautiful, and evil so obviously ugly. God also helps us and makes it easy, we only have to depend on Him.
To me, all the "how many are saved", "who are saved?", "am I saved?" type questions are just angel-on-pinhead questions. Spacey, metaphysical questions that have the potential to get in the way of mission.
To understand the reality of Hell is necessary. It motivates us to run from the evil of sin. It makes us love God. It makes us love Christ as our saviour. But if it is causing you to despair and leading you to inaction, you need to have a different understanding of Hell. When Christ talked about Hell, it was to motivate us, not demotivate us, because Christianity is a religion of action. If you are thinking "what is the point of doing anything if I might not be saved." Or "There is no point in praying for my dead atheist mother because she might not be saved" Or "these people are going to Hell, they are not worth my time." Then banish these thoughts. They are unhelpful speculations. No point in musing on maybe's and could be's.
Anyway, if you are looking for an answer to your troubles, it is in the Bible, as usual. In Matthew 19:16-30, Jesus tells a rich man to give up all his possessions and follow him. He follows up by turning to his disciples and tells them that it is harder for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a wealthy man to be saved. Like many times in the Gospels, Jesus is using extremely provocative, grandiose language to motivate his disciples into action. However, like you, his disciples became shocked, and started to despair, asking "Who can be saved?". To this, Jesus gives a very important answer to them, and to you:
"With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible"
He then goes on to make a point about the rewards of Heaven. His answer may be a bit vague, but to me, this episode tells me to always reject in despair and replace it with awe in God, who can do the impossible. And to look forward to the rewards of faith. Jesus responded to despair with hope.
Christ said the path to salvation is narrow, that's crystal clear. Believing that all Christians are saved automatically just because they're Christians is a completely contradictory statement to that.
Amen brother. I don't care what denomination you fall under. That's all truth. And I think both those who wish to deny themselves for Christ, and those Protestants who teach sanctification, are in practicality holding up the same thing. And it's God who makes it those things possible. It's not simply about "works" in and of themselves.
And to give in to despair is the path of Judas. We must run far from it.
Come on man, show God you care.
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Not even true. Christ guarantees salvation if you have the proper Faith.
You do penance as well, we have a Priest to help us through it, reinforces it. We also do not believe in works Salvation, your pulling things out of your ass.
Also I didn't know you could arbitrary say who is or isn't just by how they act out the faith. That's a mighty high place your comming from to deny another mans Faith In Christ.
I think it could be beam-in-eye time lads.
So you claim salvation is guaranteed with the proper faith? But you can't denounce the idea of penance so you directly contradict yourself by saying you do serve your own version of it. So salvation is not guaranteed? Oh it is? Then why serve the penance? As an afterthought? Seeing as you do not believe the battle here on earth still wages on for yourself, I doubt you feel the same scorching in your heart as I do when I pray. As a matter of fact, it would mean your battle were over, and you could die right now! I don't know about you, but I can't say the same.
So many things are wrong in this simple assertion
Faith leads to works. The Protestant does penance because he is sorry for offending God and God's law, not just to avoid hell.
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Verily I say unto you, they have their reward. [Matthew 6:5]
sounds a lot like
Not an argument.
Still not an argument.
What's your point?
You think you've caught me but you only expose yourself. Only someone with a barrier between their heart and the truth, such a hostile atittude, and the direct assumption that this is my stating myself to be better than you instead of seeing I'm trying to get something through to you. I'm not better than you. You're missing out.
Protestants, ladies and Gentlemen.
Honestly, I think it's arrogant of you to assume a Catholic would pray and serve penance only to avoid damnation simply because that option was opened to them. So you have to use self imposed borders, handicaps to show your love now? Can you only serve penance when it's not in order? Am I missing something?
I am Catholic!
I'm an idiot, sorry user.
Never mind that, but I have to ask why did you think I wasn't
I've noticed a lot of the new people don't really read IDs lately. Is Zig Forums passing through new posters that quickly quit and are replaced with more new posters? That's the only way I can make sense of this situation.
Also as I said:
I thought you replied to one of my posts. I was confused from the beginning
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No disrespect intended, but I genuinely cannot make any sense of what you are saying.
I never meant to imply that no Catholic has ever done penance out of the love of God, only that you seemed to be confused as to why a Protestant would bother doing penance.
i don't need to make an "argument" because i don't base my opinions on whatever makes me feel superior to others
So you didn't have a point to make about Protestantism, you were just saying mean things about it? Go in peace.
you literally started it with your backhanded insult against cathodox's. you're delusional
Given that you and seem to have prickled at my 'insult', perhaps I could have phrased it better. I assure you that I don't hate my cathodox brothers.
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