I think we can all agree God always comes first but I'm not talking about those kind of situations were you have to hide some jews from the gestapo and no violence is ever needed In my opinion if we know of any grave immoral crime, and are capable of stopping it, we should always strive to do so in the "best" possible way, (keep in mind this shouldn’t be an attempt to punish but prevent) I think we would all agree the "best" way is always the one with less violence and same “stopping power”
For example If you're about to witness a rape…
But then I ran this logic with abortions and…
Social repercussions should be accounted for of course, killing the gestapo officer could save people but there would be reprisals, and we should also consider other more peaceful alternatives that tackle the same problem (try and convince doctors and uncertain pregnant women of the value of life). But even so, given they perform an average of 3-8 monthly abortions (allegedly), violence seems justified and even necessary, even though cutting thumbs doesn’t feel very Christian, what should you do if you find yourself in a similar position?
I would also like to know what Zig Forums thinks about how to handle less grave crimes which still lead to plenty of tragedy and that the law enforcement, out of corruption, bureaucracy, political immunity or otherwise, aren’t enforcing i.e. banking usury, drug trafficking, money laundering and the like
Take fetuses and hide them in your basement to keep the gestapo from murdering them? No.
Joshua Kelly
… this What ever God's wrath is, remember he is the Just Judge, and they will get to know his temper.
Brody Mitchell
All man-made laws are invalid before God.
Brandon Allen
Yes I know but this applies more to the people that shouldn't have gotten away with it but have, and not an excuse for us to look the other way
I thought our father expected us to do whatever was in our power to stop heinous acts, even use (the least amount of) violence, from there comes the concept of just war, I'm struggling to find good reason as to why cutting those peoples' thumbs off is immoral as that would seem to stop the crime and not involve that much violence or greatly damage our movement of criminalizing abortion thoughts?
Justin Peterson
meant for
Lincoln Bailey
That's honestly Islam method thinking. Just because we have the truth of the gospel doesn't mean we can impose it upon others. Yeah, we should condemn them and be vocal, yeah we need and should stand in the way of misdeeds that fall upon humanity.
But we are to be set apart from them. To abuse another mans free will as to punish him severely in a grotesque manner is barbaric and appalling. We are not their judge, we are merely their jailor if even that.
We cannot impose the Faith onto them just as God does not impose it onto us. Pray for their repentance, pray and God's justice will be swift and mighty.
Kevin Smith
I understand that violence is not something to be glorified, but I don't see why it should be frowned upon either. God will violently punish the wicked, plenty of violence was committed in the old testament at the command of God himself, and Jesus even resorted to violence when the jews defiled the temple with their corruption. If you ask me, committing violence against those who practice abortion is perfectly fine, you are after all trying to protect an innocent child's life. If you happened upon somebody trying to kill a 5 year old kid in a back alley or something, you wouldn't try to 'convince them of the value of life', you'd either stop them yourself or get somebody who can stop them (call the police). Whichever you choose, violence is ultimately the solution. It may help to think of violence in the same way you think of sex. Sex just for pleasure between complete strangers is degenerate and sinful, but sex between a married couple for the purpose of raising children is a wonderful thing.
Jeremiah Phillips
That's what I thought at first, we can do something so long as we don't infringe on the dignity or free will of the other, but personal liberty clearly stops when someone chooses to murder doesn't it? and all societies seem to agree, if violence is the only way, what then?
That's not what I'm proposing, I never intended to punish the perpetrator just prevent the grave crimes he commits unto others, emphasis on "grave" and "others", a "jailor" like you say I don't want to hurt them either but it seems maiming is the only way of saving 8 lives
Kevin Stewart
The correct translation of the 5th commandment is “Thou Shall Not MURDER.” Some killing is sanctioned, either directly by God or indirectly by his administrators (those writing government legislation, who the bible tells us were appointed by God). This is why killing is allowed in war - it’s sanctioned by thise in power.
It is true that Christians are not to get abortions as per pur administrators (in the church). However, because it was sanctioned by the U.S, government, it is not up to us Christians to attack abortion doctors for performing legl killing. We must instead be the light of the word, and be a positive influence
Sebastian Cruz
You have gotten answers already, continuing this line of thinking is unhealthy for you as a Christian individually and for the community as a whole.
Isaac Gray
Ok, first of all, you're advocating criminal violence against another human being. Second of all, cutting off someone's thumb doesn't really prevent anything.
Blake Young
I'll stop debating and look more into this, but finding a moral ground is not unhealthy
Have you tried doing anything without your dominant hands' thumb? Roman soldiers used to cut their thumbs off so they would get dismissed (they couldn't hold a sword)
Anthony Richardson
You are not on the moral ground. We are telling you this. Your pursuit is apparently vain and prideful, this is not Holy avenue you are going in with this fullheadedness.
Adrian Wood
We live in an age where any limb can be replaced by a highly effective prosthetic. We're not Muslims. We don't live in the 7th century.
Don't assume my intentions, I would pray for that man, for I inflicted pain onto him, I would even pay for his medical bills
Present real arguments
Still wouldn't cut it for a surgeon
Levi Jones
Perhaps, but there are thousands of surgeons in line behind the one whose thumb you just cut off. So, you go to prison for aggravated assault and the abortion gets done anyway.
Blake Allen
The basic premise of self defense applies to defense of others If you live in such a dystopian country that doesn't allow lethal force to stop a rape you should leave fast
Boring maxim God instituted human systems for justice
Hudson Fisher
That doesn't apply to the unborn child of a woman seeking an abortion. Not in the US, anyway.
Jayden Price
psalm 10 13 : "why does the wicked man spurn god, assuring himself 'he will not make me pay"?' do you really think they're getting away with anything?
we must evangelize the truth, and i do think that involves influencing the state we reside in. have 15 children. the son does what the father taught him.
it is as you say: we will follow to the law until it breaks a more powerful law (laws given to us by god). are you the one sacrificing children? no. are we guilty of the kings sins? no. do we encourage the king to do what's right? yes.
Maybe, but at least you buy the kiddos some time until they're recognized as humans and it's not like clinics are fast food restaurants, there are only a handful per state
Besides, that's flawed logic, it's obviously to make it harder
What I meant was that there are some that take the will of God as Karma, I never proposed punishment, like I have said before, only prevention
Austin Bennett
do you take god's justice to be something similar to karma?
god has always let us do what we want to do AFTER he has told us what we SHOULD do.
god does not prevent the wicked from committing sin. god does judge the wicked accordingly.
Adrian Turner
Not really. Not a lot of time. Do you understand how medicine works?
Caleb Kelly
Agreed that it's an injustice
Leo Wilson
Read my posts again, and if you have time, the Vatican document on just wars You'll find I don't disagree with you on anything
I see where you're coming from, the American abortion industry has been systematized gg But it still seems this kind of approach could be moral if the situation just becomes more practical In this case maiming the surgeon would make a difference, save some lives What then?
Michael Anderson
There is nothing moral about violently maiming another human being.
Ryder Russell
But what if doing so ment saving countless other lives?
Jose Reed
If you can prove that cutting off one doctor's thumb will save lives, then I suppose you might have an argument; but I guarantee you that cutting off someone's thumb doesn't save anyone.
Henry Fisher
Well, I was thinking the whole (and both) hands it's more practical. Chopping off just the thumb banks off of fear only which won't work as much
Let's say, a vigilante chopped off a known abortionist's hands. Said abortionist can no longer give abortions. It also sends a message to other abortionists to end their practice, least they suffer the same fate. Ending abortionists' murderous practices would save countless children from death.
It won't stop rich degenerates from paying the abortionist to perform an illegal abortion.
Though it is MORE practical than chopping off hands, it prevents the abortionist the oppertunity to ask God for forgiveness and repent twords Him.
Which is more unchristian? Commiting a crime to save lives or sitting idly by while someone murders babies?
Geeze … you really want to slice up people … I will pray for you.
Jace Wright
Geeze…your sloth really wants to allow babies to be murdered…I'll pray for you.
Zachary Reed
I don't want anyone to be murdered. ANYONE … including people who you personally want to be murdered.
Ryder Miller
was my punctuation unclear or blasphemous? you mentioned karma vaguely, and i wasn't sure what you thought about it. you say you don't disagree with me on anything, yet you "never proposed punishment". does not judgement come in the form of punishment? you would not only be preventing abortion doctors from sacrificing children, you would be punishing and judging them for their crimes.
i suppose if you kept to these, the Church wouldn't have a problem with it. looks pretty strict, desu.
Gabriel Jones
Now you are being disingenuous and bearing false witness. I stated I don't want abortionists to be murdered as it would prevent them the oppertunity to repent twords God.
Try actually reading my post before you get overly emotional, friend.
